Trump as tragicomedy

[moda0306]

Significantly, all that interventionism involved the same short list of beneficiaries.

I agree with this. And it's the same short list that Trump and his party are working tirelessly for right now.

Yeah I guess I'm not getting Maddy's (apparent, IMO) conflation of "The Left" (aka, the hard-left I take it?) with establishment deep-state corporatist interventionist war-hawks.

The apparent idea that Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats.

Each of these groups has glaring flaws IMO... but their flaws are very different. I don't see how someone can see them as the same monolithic force in America seems ridiculous to me... even if you think the opposition to Trump is driven mostly by "nefarious" interests.

[Kbg]

McCain was a complex guy and like most humans who have lived he had his high points and low points. I think with any human life we should celebrate a person's good while not necessarily giving them a pass on the bad.

High points
- Courage, honor and grit as a POW
- Bipartisanship...standing up for a more civil political discourse

Low points
- First marriage/infidelity
- He could be very mean/vindictive when he wanted to be

I think at the end of the day he loved his country and called things as he saw them.

I also think it is pretty clear folks are putting more weights on the good side of the scale than the negative side...and I think that's about right.

He was also a Geo-political Hawk/Neo-Con of the highest order. Off the top of my head, he was a major force in speaking in favor of invading:

Afghanistan
Iraq
Syria
Libya

He also advocated for involvement with (including supporting rebel and military factions) in:

Bosnia
Georgia
Ukraine
Kosovo
Nigeria
Iran

The guy has a lot of blood on his hands ala Bush/Cheney/Hillary. Hopefully he did it for the right reasons, but either way, they royally f*cked up an entire section of the world.

He seemed almost blood thirsty and would play the "don't question my motives, I'm a POW" card whenever someone opposed his worldview.

No doubt he was a Hawk, even too much for me. If you are a no wars anytime kinda person then we have nothing to discuss, but rather than list a set of countries with conflict you should also list the causal reason for the conflict in each. And if you know your history, you also know with the exception of Iraq the second time, the US instigated exactly zero of those conflicts and we have generally been on the side of the "good" guys though I'll be the first to admit "good" gets pretty gray in a couple.

[Kbg]

Significantly, all that interventionism involved the same short list of beneficiaries.

List them Maddy.

[l82start]

Significantly, all that interventionism involved the same short list of beneficiaries.

I agree with this. And it's the same short list that Trump and his party are working tirelessly for right now.

Yeah I guess I'm not getting Maddy's (apparent, IMO) conflation of "The Left" (aka, the hard-left I take it?) with establishment deep-state corporatist interventionist war-hawks.

The apparent idea that Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats.

Each of these groups has glaring flaws IMO... but their flaws are very different. I don't see how someone can see them as the same monolithic force in America seems ridiculous to me... even if you think the opposition to Trump is driven mostly by "nefarious" interests.

Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = easy to manipulate emotionally driven and reactive (aka useful idiots ) + Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats. the beneficiaries of manipulating the former groups to achieve and maintain power..

edit to add... thinking this is a left right thing at the level of deep-state globalist corporatist is probably false. the true ideology at that level is "power, control, money," thinking that one side is better because they appeal to left of center, right of center, far left, or far right, is a mistake. willing to say anything that gives them power, control, money, is where they are really coming from...

[moda0306]

I agree with this. And it's the same short list that Trump and his party are working tirelessly for right now.

Yeah I guess I'm not getting Maddy's (apparent, IMO) conflation of "The Left" (aka, the hard-left I take it?) with establishment deep-state corporatist interventionist war-hawks.

The apparent idea that Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats.

Each of these groups has glaring flaws IMO... but their flaws are very different. I don't see how someone can see them as the same monolithic force in America seems ridiculous to me... even if you think the opposition to Trump is driven mostly by "nefarious" interests.

Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = easy to manipulate emotionally driven and reactive (aka useful idiots ) + Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats. the beneficiaries of manipulating the former groups to achieve and maintain power..

Well their desired policy prescriptions are quite different, but to the degree in a two-party duopoly that the former feels motivated to vote for the "lesser of two evils" in the latter I sort of see what you mean.

That said, though, you could easily make the same argument towards the less-establishment wings of Republicans, who consistently vote on social signal issues or certain pet libertarian issues while "Corporatist Republicans" enact massive corporate tax-cuts (while the military exists almost solely as a protectorate of their global corporate interests), the most corporate-friendly aspects of so-called "free-trade" deals, and

So in this case, the problem isn't "the left," but "the political-establishment center," two wings of which use their respective "useful idiots" in the public. And I would say that Desert is obviously correct that with the exception of a couple angles of a couple issues, and the fact that he's an utterly bombastic clown, that Trump is pretty friendly to the establishment corporatist interests Maddy seems to dislike.

But even if you could jumble together an argument that Trump is consistently and positively anti-establishment, once again, the problem isn't "the left." It's "the corporatist center."

[Desert]

Here is a great article on trade and tariffs, by an excellent CEO in NO. A friend of mine worked for this guy, and he's known for being a very thoughtful guy.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this- ... 2018-08-27

[Maddy]

Yeah I guess I'm not getting Maddy's (apparent, IMO) conflation of "The Left" (aka, the hard-left I take it?) with establishment deep-state corporatist interventionist war-hawks.

The apparent idea that Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats.

Each of these groups has glaring flaws IMO... but their flaws are very different. I don't see how someone can see them as the same monolithic force in America seems ridiculous to me...

When you realize that the Antifa brick-throwers are being financed by the likes of George Soros, the connection becomes obvious.

[moda0306]

Yeah I guess I'm not getting Maddy's (apparent, IMO) conflation of "The Left" (aka, the hard-left I take it?) with establishment deep-state corporatist interventionist war-hawks.

The apparent idea that Antifa brick-thrower = Some namby-pamby leftist hippie = liberal school teacher = Hillary/Schumer/Pilosi-corporate-democrats.

Each of these groups has glaring flaws IMO... but their flaws are very different. I don't see how someone can see them as the same monolithic force in America seems ridiculous to me...

When you realize that the Antifa brick-throwers are being financed by the likes of George Soros, the connection becomes obvious.

What are your sources confirming this is actually true and not just an Alex Jones conspiracy theory?

What benefits do the likes of George Soros have by funding folks making liberal ideas/actors look ridiculous to the more moderate public? Or even if he is and there are benefits to his cause, are we sure that Soros represents a monolithic political force?

[Desert]

Here's an article I read some months ago regarding Soros:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... py/547247/

I'd like to see a source from Maddy though.

[Kbg]

The Dems have Soros, the Pubs have the Koch's. What's the difference really?

[Maddy]

Here's an article I read some months ago regarding Soros:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... py/547247/

I'd like to see a source from Maddy though.

Nope. If you're really interested (and I don't believe you are), there are a ton of sources on the internet that link to the 990s. It's all in the public record.

[clacy]

The Dems have Soros, the Pubs have the Koch's. What's the difference really?

Koch's hate Trump, and the Republican Party is now the Trump party. I predict that the Koch's will back Dems by 2020.

They want their corporatocracy and cheap labor.