Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

[Benko]

Make sure you buy from reliable supplier i.e. one that does QC tests.


Antiobesity effect of Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract (actiponin): a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.

Park SH1, Huh TL, Kim SY, Oh MR, Tirupathi Pichiah PB, Chae SW, Cha YS.
Author information
Erratum in
Erratum: Antiobesity effect of Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract (actiponin): A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. [Obesity (Silver Spring). 2015]
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The effects of actiponin was investigated, a heat-processed Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract, on body weight, fat loss, and metabolic markers of Korean participants in a 12-week, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial.
DESIGN AND METHODS:
Obese participants (BMI ≥ 25 kg m(-2) and WHR ≥ 0.90 for male or WHR ≥ 0.85 for female) who had not been diagnosed with any disease and met the inclusion criteria were recruited for this study. The 80 subjects were randomly divided into actiponin (n = 40, 450 mg day(-1) ) and placebo (n = 40) groups. Outcomes included measurement of efficacy (abdominal fat distribution, anthropometric parameters, and blood lipid profiles) and safety (adverse events, laboratory test results, electrocardiogram data, and vital signs).
RESULTS:
During 12-week of actiponin supplementation, total abdominal fat area, body weight, body fat mass, percent body fat, and BMI were significantly decreased (P = 0.044, P < 0.05, P < 0.0001, P < 0.0001, and P < 0.05, respectively) in the actiponin group compared to the placebo group. No clinically significant changes in any safety parameter were observed.
CONCLUSION:
Our study revealed that actiponin is a potent antiobesity reagent that does not produce any significant adverse effects. These results suggest that actiponin supplementation may be effective for treating obese individuals.
Copyright © 2013 The Obesity Society.

PMID: 23804546 DOI: 10.1002/oby.20539

[Maddy]

I see that one of the mechanisms of action is to directly increase the cellular uptake of glucose. I'm just speculating here, but assuming that the crushing fatigue typically associated with very low-carb diets is at least partly due to a cellular "fuel" deficit secondary to reduced insulin sensitivity, perhaps this supplement would work to combat that effect. If so, you'd have not only the beneficial weight loss effects of gynostemma itself, but a greater probability of adherence to an otherwise very painful low-carb regimen. Make any sense?

[Benko]

Maddy,

It makes sense. I have no idea if it would actually work that way i practice. None of the 4 people I know of used very low carb diets.

If very low carb works well for you/the people you know then by all means use them.

By all means anyone interested in losing weight should avoid simple sugars.

If you try it, let me know how it goes.

[l82start]

one benefit of low carb (for many but not all people i assume) is that a diet of protein fat and fiber/vegies is both filling and provides plenty of energy, it also changes or resets the hunger/feel full mechanisms in the body. so for many low carb dieters after the first period of adjustment low energy and ravenous hunger are not a consideration.. which is why it has as good a success rate as it does for weight loss. i suspect this is why it is easer to control caloric intake on low carb diets, they have short circuited the "feel hunger feed me - eat carbs - sugar crash- feel hungry- feed me" cycle.

[Maddy]

As it so happens, I just completed Week Four of a low carb diet. I haven't exactly counted carbs, but I've cut out all grains, as well as the lion's share of the non-vegetable carbohydrates I would normally consume. Basically my only carbs now come from vegetables and legumes, and from very small quantities of berries and grapefruit. Oh, and a single beer per month and unlimited milk (iced lattes), which for me fall into the "essential to quality of life" category. It's been a painful experience, but I've dropped 10 pounds in four weeks and lost about half of the observable fat that had developed around my waist.

This all started about four weeks ago when I bought a glucose meter on a whim. I've been feeling excessively fatigued over the last year and having an increasing array of arthritis-like symptoms. Although my family history is chock full of diabetes, I never gave serious consideration to the possibility of blood sugar issues because I have none of the lifestyle risk factors. I've always been on the slim side (except for the aforementioned spare tire which developed rather suddenly at age 55 along with a mild increase in weight), am extremely active, and have been eating a health food diet since the age of 16. What I now realize is how much I had come to rely on carbohydrates (especially grains) as an allegedly "safe" category of foods, and how much I had come to rely upon them for a quick pick-me-up or an endorphin fix.

Anyway, I was shocked to find that my blood glucose is running quite high, and that got my attention in a very big way. It was actually a very positive realization for me because it offered an answer as to why I had been feeling so shitty, and because the research has so clearly outlined a path to reversal.

Over the last four weeks, I've managed to significantly reduce my blood glucose levels, but it's been a fairly painful process that has confirmed the physiologically addictive nature of reliance on carbohydrates, and grains in particular. I've had a nearly complete reprieve from the "I need to lie down, right here, right now" kind of fatigue, but I'm still lacking in energy and experiencing intermittently what feels like a low blood sugar crisis (but is not). A lot of varied stuff has been written, mostly speculative, about why people feel so fatigued on low-carb diets, but to me the simplest explanation is that if insulin resistance is causing the body's cells to be starved for fuel at even high blood glucose concentrations, this must be all the more true when those circulating glucose levels precipitously drop due to an abrupt change in diet and the insulin sensitivity of the cells hasn't yet returned.

I've started on gymnema (which may not be the best option based upon its mechanism of action) and chromium picolinate. I'll be adding gynostemma and berberine this next week. Although I don't have a whole lot more weight to lose, I'm wondering if it may be the boost I need to take off the last few pounds and the rest of the fat around the middle--and to restore my normal energy level.

I do appreciate the high level of discourse on this issue, which is what I have come to expect on this wonderful forum.

[Mark Leavy]

I'm a huge fan of low carb. And I pretty much just eat meat, cheese, fish, eggs, coffee and booze.

However... the more I look at things, the more I believe that anyone that pays attention to their diet - be that what it may - will do pretty damn well. I know some vegetarians that live off of bread and beer - those don't count. But if you try to eat decent food - whatever that means in your world - you will do pretty well.

The only caveat is that you have to keep moving. And people who watch what they eat are usually pretty good at that. I don't recommend long distance running, but walking uphill and lifting some weights now and then will do you a lot of good. Probably a lot of other things also.

I do have a few biases - but nothing I could vouch for yet. I agree with some of the earlier posters that most forms of fasting are beneficial. Choose the one that works for you. And... I may be fooling myself, but I seem to get really good results from egg yolks. I finally found a decent body weight workout that I can consistently do on the road (roam strong) - and when I'm done in the morning, I down 4 to 6 egg yolks - mixed 50/50 with some local juice. That seems to hold me over until late afternoon when I settle in with a steak and a bottle of wine.

[Mark Leavy]

My apologies Maddy, I didn't mean to cross post on you. Your comments are the highlight of any thread.
Mark

[Maddy]

one benefit of low carb (for many but not all people i assume) is that a diet of protein fat and fiber/vegies is both filling and provides plenty of energy, it also changes or resets the hunger/feel full mechanisms in the body. so for many low carb dieters after the first period of adjustment low energy and ravenous hunger are not a consideration.. which is why it has as good a success rate as it does for weight loss. i suspect this is why it is easer to control caloric intake on low carb diets, they have short circuited the "feel hunger feed me - eat carbs - sugar crash- feel hungry- feed me" cycle.

I think the Atkins folks actually have an advantage in the energy department because they typically switch over to using ketones for fuel fairly quickly. Recently, I came across a blog entry (written by someone who I suspect was a physician or scientist) that discussed this issue. The gist of the post was that people on very low carb diets that are not fully ketogenic tend to remain for long periods of time in a no-man's land of perpetual fatigue. His view was that you should either go fully ketogenic or increase the carbs to about 15 percent of total caloric intake, but that going "almost ketogenic" was a recipe for pain. http://www.gnolls.org/1984/the-science- ... 6@100@1653 (the poster's name is J. Stanton).

P.S. Mark-- Looks like I've just cross-posted YOU! It's just what happens when a thread is interesting and active!

[Mark Leavy]

Recently, I came across a blog entry (written by someone who I suspect was a physician or scientist) that discussed this issue. The gist of the post was that people on very low carb diets that are not fully ketogenic tend to remain for long periods of time in a no-man's land of perpetual fatigue. His view was that you should either go fully ketogenic or increase the carbs to about 15 percent of total caloric intake, but that going "almost ketogenic" was a recipe for pain. http://www.gnolls.org/1984/the-science- ... 6@100@1653 (the poster's name is J. Stanton).

P.S. Mark-- Looks like I've just cross-posted YOU! It's just what happens when a thread is interesting and active!

Ha! J. Stanton!

He's a long time rebel living out of Lake Tahoe. A bit crazy, rebellious and usually right
His book was a good (shallow) read. His blog posts tend to be pretty well thought out.

http://www.gnolls.org

[Maddy]

One thing about gynostemma: It's available from all the usual on-line sources, but it goes under some of the most unlikely names. I've had an easier time ordering from a Chinese menu.

[Maddy]

Ha! J. Stanton!

He's a long time rebel living out of Lake Tahoe. A bit crazy, rebellious and usually right
His book was a good (shallow) read. His blog posts tend to be pretty well thought out.

http://www.gnolls.org

Sounds like you're very familiar with him. What is his background? I couldn't tell from the website.

[Mark Leavy]

Ha! J. Stanton!

He's a long time rebel living out of Lake Tahoe. A bit crazy, rebellious and usually right
His book was a good (shallow) read. His blog posts tend to be pretty well thought out.

http://www.gnolls.org

Sounds like you're very familiar with him. What is his background? I couldn't tell from the website.

He has some decent credentials in the paleo community. Based on his writings, I believe that he has a pretty strong academic background - but probably not a physician. I'm guessing MS or PhD in some science related field.

He walks up hills. He recommends eating real food.

He's funny, very athletic and non-politcally correct. His manifesto is a hoot.


https://www.amazon.com/Gnoll-Credo-J-St ... 0982667132

I love the "die biting the throat". But that's just me

[Benko]

OT Mark,

I have a question. Assuming saturated fat does not "cause" heart disease, I can't see how you escape the fact of arachadonic acid increasing inflammation. And inflammation increases and becomes a problem as one gets older.

Personally I'm eating red meat once a week or so, some animal protein daily and lots of antiinflamatory foods and supps.

BTW the love the description of your diet. It sounds like a hardboiled detective from some novel or TV show.

[Mark Leavy]

OT Mark,

I have a question. Assuming saturated fat does not "cause" heart disease, I can't see how you escape the fact of arachadonic acid increasing inflammation. And inflammation increases and becomes a problem as one gets older.

Personally I'm eating red meat once a week or so, some animal protein daily and lots of antiinflamatory foods and supps.

BTW the love the description of your diet. It sounds like a hardboiled detective from some novel or TV show.

I really don't have a good answer Benko.

(As an aside for those following the conversation, fats and oils fall onto a continuum of "fatty acids" of which there are legion. People who care about such things divide them up into different categories based on what they do to your body)

Arachodonic acid (20:4) is about 0.3% of the fat content of a decent rib-eye steak.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/bee ... cts/3272/2

All animal products have some Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids. The eggs I eat are even higher...

But, still, as a percentage of my total energy intake - most PUFA's (including 20:4) are a tiny percentage of my fuel. So I don't worry about it.

Mark

[Kriegsspiel]

I remember the nerdbros eating tons of egg yolks back in the day for the arachidonic acid. I never got into it because it sounds spider-ish.

[Maddy]

I remember the nerdbros eating tons of egg yolks back in the day for the arachidonic acid. I never got into it because it sounds spider-ish.

Ha, ha! And I cringed a little when placing my order for gynostemma because the name invokes the image of man boobs.

[Benko]

Mark,

Puts a new perspective on it when you put it that way. Good point.

I hope you're keeping your iron levels down though. I'm starting to give blood regularly. For the newcomers higher levels of iron (ferritin is one good blood test) have been linked to all sorts of diseases and regularly giving blood increases insulin sensitivity.

[WiseOne]

I remember the nerdbros eating tons of egg yolks back in the day for the arachidonic acid. I never got into it because it sounds spider-ish.

Ha, ha! And I cringed a little when placing my order for gynostemma because the name invokes the image of man boobs.

You're going to try it maddy? Do let us know how it goes. I'm kinda interested in this too. I pulled up the article and it looks like a reasonable study, with promising results.

[Benko]

The only caveats I'd mention are:

1. based on how it may work (AMPK) it might not be effective/as effective for 20 or 30 year olds as it does for those of us over 40.

2. I'd be careful if you already have an autoimmune disease as it "strengthens the immune system" and might worsen things. There is no evidence that it would cause one to develop.

[Maddy]

You're going to try it maddy? Do let us know how it goes. I'm kinda interested in this too. I pulled up the article and it looks like a reasonable study, with promising results.

I sure am. It's ordered and on its way.

Very helpful warning about the potential autoimmune effects, Benko. I've kind of wondered whether I might have some autoimmune stuff going on, and in fact there's been some very interesting research suggesting that in an atypical subset of T2Ds the disease has an autoimmune etiology. These folks have sometimes been referred to colloquially as "Type 1.5."

[Maddy]

For those who need a review of what AMPK is, as I did:

AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) is a phylogenetically conserved fuel-sensing enzyme that is present in both primitive unicellular organisms and mammals [59]. It is activated by stresses that increase the cellular concentration of AMP relative to ATP due to either limited ATP production (e.g. glucose deprivation or hypoxia) or increased energy expenditure (e.g. muscle contraction). When this occurs, AMPK sets in motion processes that potentially both increase ATP generation such as fatty-acid oxidation and glucose transport, and decreases others that consume ATP, but are not acutely required for survival, such as lipid and protein synthesis and cell growth and proliferation [59;87]. In addition, it may specifically stimulate glycolysis in cardiac muscle [115]. Recent evidence suggests that AMPK may have a much wider range of actions. For instance, it is involved in the regulation of such diverse events as mitochondrial biogenesis [83;211], angiogenesis[138], cell polarity [209] and the control of food intake and whole-body energy expenditure at the level of the hypothalamus [123]. In addition, AMPK activation in peripheral tissues seems to counteract many of the cellular abnormalities observed in animal models of the metabolic syndrome including insulin resistance, inflammation and ectopic lipid deposition [16;60;112;170;180]. Conversely, its dysregulation (defined as decreased activity or impaired activation) may contribute to these abnormalities [167]

Exercise, which is perhaps the most extreme metabolic stress experienced by normal humans, leads to activation of AMPK in skeletal muscle [21;46;218] and, at least in rodents in intraabdominal adipose tissue, liver [24;141] and probably other organs (J.Cacicedo, M-S. Gauthier, N.Ruderman, unpublished observations).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779044/

[Benko]

Maddy,

So you have diabetes? Are you already taking metformin, because there is at least some overlap in mechanism e.g. both increase AMPK if you look at table I posted in the other thread.

Thinking about type II diabetes as an autoimmune disease strikes me as misleading. What are they going to do, treat them with immune suppressing drugs? Plus back to chicken vs egg

Obesity plays major role in triggering autoimmune diseases
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110722.htm

[Maddy]

Maddy,

So you have diabetes? Are you already taking metformin, because there is at least some overlap in mechanism e.g. both increase AMPK if you look at table I posted in the other thread.

Thinking about type II diabetes as an autoimmune disease strikes me as misleading. What are they going to do, treat them with immune suppressing drugs? Plus back to chicken vs egg

Obesity plays major role in triggering autoimmune diseases
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110722.htm

No, I don't think my numbers are quite high enough to meet the criteria. But frankly I couldn't care less whether I meet some arbitrary cut-off that a panel of professionals has voted upon. And I totally reject the idea that if you haven't reached that magic threshold, everything's just fine. From what I've been reading, some really damaging stuff starts happening at the cellular level when glucose levels remain above 140 for any extended period of time.

I'm not taking metformin at this point. I'm not dead-set against it, but until I've gone as far as I can with diet and supplements, I'd rather do this on my own. The standard medical approach to diabetes and pre-diabetes just doesn't fit for me. In fact, it's downright depressing. I seem to be surrounded by Type 2 diabetics these days, all generally regarded as "treatment compliant," who stuff their pie holes with every sugary dessert on the table and then go take their meds. Ye gads.

Six weeks ago, I was regularly topping 190 two hours post-prandial; yesterday, I hovered around 110 the majority of the day. It remains to be seen whether I can eventually maintain those numbers on a more normal (though still restricted) diet.

[Benko]

Maddy,

I think you'll be happy with the gynostemma.

If you can what I would also do each day is to go without food for 12 hours i.e. not eat after dinner and not have b'fast for 12 hours. 14 hours is better and 16 best. With 16 hours without food you are consuming all your food each day in an 8 hour window. These are forms of, or related to, intermittent fasting and should help with weight loss/insulin sensitivity.

Good luck and post and let us know how it goes.

[WiseOne]

The intermittent fasting technique has been shown not to work well for women. I'm curious whether the gynostemma treatment will also show a gender difference. It wasn't part of the original article.

FYI NIH now requires all new studies to address sex as a biological variable. Any future GS studies funded by NIH will have to report subgroup comparisons by gender.