Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:16 pm

OT Mark,

I have a question. Assuming saturated fat does not "cause" heart disease, I can't see how you escape the fact of arachadonic acid increasing inflammation. And inflammation increases and becomes a problem as one gets older.

Personally I'm eating red meat once a week or so, some animal protein daily and lots of antiinflamatory foods and supps.

BTW the love the description of your diet. It sounds like a hardboiled detective from some novel or TV show.
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:01 pm

Benko wrote:OT Mark,

I have a question. Assuming saturated fat does not "cause" heart disease, I can't see how you escape the fact of arachadonic acid increasing inflammation. And inflammation increases and becomes a problem as one gets older.

Personally I'm eating red meat once a week or so, some animal protein daily and lots of antiinflamatory foods and supps.

BTW the love the description of your diet. It sounds like a hardboiled detective from some novel or TV show.

I really don't have a good answer Benko.

(As an aside for those following the conversation, fats and oils fall onto a continuum of "fatty acids" of which there are legion. People who care about such things divide them up into different categories based on what they do to your body)

Arachodonic acid (20:4) is about 0.3% of the fat content of a decent rib-eye steak.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/bee ... cts/3272/2

All animal products have some Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids. The eggs I eat are even higher...

But, still, as a percentage of my total energy intake - most PUFA's (including 20:4) are a tiny percentage of my fuel. So I don't worry about it.

Mark
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:18 pm

I remember the nerdbros eating tons of egg yolks back in the day for the arachidonic acid. I never got into it because it sounds spider-ish.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Maddy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:15 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:I remember the nerdbros eating tons of egg yolks back in the day for the arachidonic acid. I never got into it because it sounds spider-ish.
Ha, ha! And I cringed a little when placing my order for gynostemma because the name invokes the image of man boobs.
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:02 pm

Mark,

Puts a new perspective on it when you put it that way. Good point.

I hope you're keeping your iron levels down though. I'm starting to give blood regularly. For the newcomers higher levels of iron (ferritin is one good blood test) have been linked to all sorts of diseases and regularly giving blood increases insulin sensitivity.
WiseOne
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2692
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:08 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by WiseOne » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:37 am

Maddy wrote:
Kriegsspiel wrote:I remember the nerdbros eating tons of egg yolks back in the day for the arachidonic acid. I never got into it because it sounds spider-ish.
Ha, ha! And I cringed a little when placing my order for gynostemma because the name invokes the image of man boobs.
You're going to try it maddy? Do let us know how it goes. I'm kinda interested in this too. I pulled up the article and it looks like a reasonable study, with promising results.
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:57 am

The only caveats I'd mention are:

1. based on how it may work (AMPK) it might not be effective/as effective for 20 or 30 year olds as it does for those of us over 40.

2. I'd be careful if you already have an autoimmune disease as it "strengthens the immune system" and might worsen things. There is no evidence that it would cause one to develop.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Maddy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:38 am

WiseOne wrote:You're going to try it maddy? Do let us know how it goes. I'm kinda interested in this too. I pulled up the article and it looks like a reasonable study, with promising results.
I sure am. It's ordered and on its way.

Very helpful warning about the potential autoimmune effects, Benko. I've kind of wondered whether I might have some autoimmune stuff going on, and in fact there's been some very interesting research suggesting that in an atypical subset of T2Ds the disease has an autoimmune etiology. These folks have sometimes been referred to colloquially as "Type 1.5."
Last edited by Maddy on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Maddy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:54 am

For those who need a review of what AMPK is, as I did:
AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) is a phylogenetically conserved fuel-sensing enzyme that is present in both primitive unicellular organisms and mammals [59]. It is activated by stresses that increase the cellular concentration of AMP relative to ATP due to either limited ATP production (e.g. glucose deprivation or hypoxia) or increased energy expenditure (e.g. muscle contraction). When this occurs, AMPK sets in motion processes that potentially both increase ATP generation such as fatty-acid oxidation and glucose transport, and decreases others that consume ATP, but are not acutely required for survival, such as lipid and protein synthesis and cell growth and proliferation [59;87]. In addition, it may specifically stimulate glycolysis in cardiac muscle [115]. Recent evidence suggests that AMPK may have a much wider range of actions. For instance, it is involved in the regulation of such diverse events as mitochondrial biogenesis [83;211], angiogenesis[138], cell polarity [209] and the control of food intake and whole-body energy expenditure at the level of the hypothalamus [123]. In addition, AMPK activation in peripheral tissues seems to counteract many of the cellular abnormalities observed in animal models of the metabolic syndrome including insulin resistance, inflammation and ectopic lipid deposition [16;60;112;170;180]. Conversely, its dysregulation (defined as decreased activity or impaired activation) may contribute to these abnormalities [167]

Exercise, which is perhaps the most extreme metabolic stress experienced by normal humans, leads to activation of AMPK in skeletal muscle [21;46;218] and, at least in rodents in intraabdominal adipose tissue, liver [24;141] and probably other organs (J.Cacicedo, M-S. Gauthier, N.Ruderman, unpublished observations).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779044/
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:21 pm

Maddy,

So you have diabetes? Are you already taking metformin, because there is at least some overlap in mechanism e.g. both increase AMPK if you look at table I posted in the other thread.

Thinking about type II diabetes as an autoimmune disease strikes me as misleading. What are they going to do, treat them with immune suppressing drugs? Plus back to chicken vs egg

Obesity plays major role in triggering autoimmune diseases
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110722.htm
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Maddy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:52 pm

Benko wrote:Maddy,

So you have diabetes? Are you already taking metformin, because there is at least some overlap in mechanism e.g. both increase AMPK if you look at table I posted in the other thread.

Thinking about type II diabetes as an autoimmune disease strikes me as misleading. What are they going to do, treat them with immune suppressing drugs? Plus back to chicken vs egg

Obesity plays major role in triggering autoimmune diseases
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110722.htm
No, I don't think my numbers are quite high enough to meet the criteria. But frankly I couldn't care less whether I meet some arbitrary cut-off that a panel of professionals has voted upon. And I totally reject the idea that if you haven't reached that magic threshold, everything's just fine. From what I've been reading, some really damaging stuff starts happening at the cellular level when glucose levels remain above 140 for any extended period of time.

I'm not taking metformin at this point. I'm not dead-set against it, but until I've gone as far as I can with diet and supplements, I'd rather do this on my own. The standard medical approach to diabetes and pre-diabetes just doesn't fit for me. In fact, it's downright depressing. I seem to be surrounded by Type 2 diabetics these days, all generally regarded as "treatment compliant," who stuff their pie holes with every sugary dessert on the table and then go take their meds. Ye gads.

Six weeks ago, I was regularly topping 190 two hours post-prandial; yesterday, I hovered around 110 the majority of the day. It remains to be seen whether I can eventually maintain those numbers on a more normal (though still restricted) diet.
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:12 am

Maddy,

I think you'll be happy with the gynostemma.

If you can what I would also do each day is to go without food for 12 hours i.e. not eat after dinner and not have b'fast for 12 hours. 14 hours is better and 16 best. With 16 hours without food you are consuming all your food each day in an 8 hour window. These are forms of, or related to, intermittent fasting and should help with weight loss/insulin sensitivity.

Good luck and post and let us know how it goes.
WiseOne
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2692
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:08 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:20 am

The intermittent fasting technique has been shown not to work well for women. I'm curious whether the gynostemma treatment will also show a gender difference. It wasn't part of the original article.

FYI NIH now requires all new studies to address sex as a biological variable. Any future GS studies funded by NIH will have to report subgroup comparisons by gender.
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:02 am

Maddy,

Well I'm not female, but the other 3 people I know who've lost weight on gynostemma are, so you should be fine.

A quick search on intermittent fasting reveals that male and female bodies deal with any kind of periods without food very differently. Women's bodies are designed to protect reproduction and periods of time without food could jeopardize a fetus. The fact that you don't have one at the moment is irrelevant.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Maddy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:10 am

What is the rationale for compressing the time over which food is consumed? This would seem to run directly counter to the idea that eating very small amounts of food continually throughout the day ("grazing") tends to keep blood glucose levels from spiking.
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Benko » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:58 am

Maddy wrote:What is the rationale for compressing the time over which food is consumed? This would seem to run directly counter to the idea that eating very small amounts of food continually throughout the day ("grazing") tends to keep blood glucose levels from spiking.
"run directly counter to the idea that eating very small amounts of food continually throughout the day ("grazing") tends to keep blood glucose levels from spiking"

1. As far as I know that is not considered a good idea given what is known today. Current science dogma not infrequently is found wrong. Best I remember the reasons have more to do with having a longer time without food i.e. even for women, not eating any more times per day than you need to is probably best. I've forgotten theory but should be easy to find given intermittent fasting is trendy.

2. Ways to avoid spiking glucose:

--Food choice and eating higher glycemic foods last in a meal
--vinegar before meals
--some kinds of fiber before meals (forget details)

3. What you really care about is spiking insulin. Some things e.g. animal protein don't spike glucose, but spike insulin. This is why some people (not I) advocate a vegan diet.

CUtting down on animal protein (for you) and replacing fat with olive oil/avocado might be worthwhile.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Double blind study gynostemma produces weight loss

Post by Maddy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:41 am

Benko wrote:
Maddy wrote: "run directly counter to the idea that eating very small amounts of food continually throughout the day ("grazing") tends to keep blood glucose levels from spiking"

1. As far as I know that is not considered a good idea given what is known today.
I can think of some other, purely practical, reasons why grazing may not be the best idea, based upon my anecdotal experience over the last several weeks:

(1) It's easy to underestimate the amount of food you're consuming when you're grabbing a piece of cheese or a handful of almonds all day.

(2) You never break the habit of going to the refrigerator every time there's a break in the action.

(3) If tracking progress with a glucose monitor, it makes the picture very confusing.
Post Reply