Help get me reduce some weight

[doodle]

A lot of paleo advice here.... I tend to fall into the other camp. A whole foods diet that is almost all plants and grains will lead to weight loss more effectively in my experience and from what I have read and observed.

It seems like the body can be in one of two states...either it burns carbohydrates for energy or it burns fat for energy (ketosis). It's the state in the middle (high fat and high carbohydrate intake) that seems to cause a lot of issues with weight gain. Ketosis however comes with a lot of other side effects though including bad breath that make it the less desirable option.

Not sure if there is a genetic component that makes people respond differently to diet but every strict vegan / vegetarian that I know that eats whole foods (not the junk food variety) is rail thin.

[l82start]

there may be something to the idea that some people are genetically inclined to palio some toward vegetarian/vegan. but either one is ruined by consuming industrial processed foods. whole food and clean food is important for both meat and vegies.. i am not convinced that grains (in there modern form) are healthy in any way or can be remotely considered whole food anymore, they certainly have little or no resemblance to the grain that was eaten even as little as a hundred years ago..

i haven't seen any truly healthy vegans and only a few moderately healthy vegetarians. i think it may be as much due to the political ideology and cult like obsessions with food that have glommed them selfs onto these types of diet, more than a proper vegetarian diet itself, i suspect they are making it hard for people to get clean accurate info about balanced nutrition from "plants alone" hard to come by, or to sort out from all the chafe.

[doodle]

i haven't seen any truly healthy vegans and only a few moderately healthy vegetarians.

There are actually some pretty amazing elite athletes across all sports including MMA that are vegans and even a few fruitarians. Rich Roll is only one in a long list who accomplish some pretty amazing things on a vegan diet: http://www.greatveganathletes.com/rich- ... n-ultraman

I think grains are just the latest food to be vilified. No doubt that industrial processing of the grains often leads to their natural oils going rancid or failing to properly extract all their nutrients but I can say with certainty that I don't suffer any noticeable ill effects from consuming them. I am much more concerned with an increasing number of studies that seem to implicate animal products with certain types of cancer.

There are ethical and environmental considerations that also factor into diet, but from a purely health standpoint I think limiting your meat intake to 10% or less of your total calories would probably be a good idea.

[doodle]

There is even a more extreme form of veganism that involves intermittent fasting and extreme caloric restriction to around 1000 calories a day in some cases. This fellow is an example of such a diet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im1rxgcUK3E

There is also Dr.Nun Amen Ra (who incidentally is one of the most captivatingly strange individuals I have ever come across) who has national powerlifting stats that are amazing and claims to eat less than 1000 calories a day of vegan food. His powerlifting stats are real and I have seen videos of him nearly totaling 1500 pounds in the squat, deadlift and bench at the age of 50 something. I can't say for certain however whether or not his diet regimen is real or whether or not he isn't chemically enhanced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR1FCJS8DoM&t=952s

[l82start]

i probably should have been more clear, i haven't met any truly healthy vegans and only a few moderately healthy vegetarians , that doesn't mean its not possible or that they don"t exist, considering that most Americans are eating the SAD diet, it doesn't come as a surprise that many vegi eaters seem to be a bit off on their calculations of what is good nutrition. the same is probably true to some extent with palio dieters as well.. if it is less true it is likely due to the palio/ketosis information coming of age in the Internet era making it easter to sort out the junk info.

[Maddy]

there may be something to the idea that some people are genetically inclined to palio some toward vegetarian/vegan. . .

Could very well be a result of differences in microbiome. It's weird to think that the bacteria in a person's gut can exert chemical influences that compel the person to eat those substances that are most favorable to the bugs, but that seems to be the case.

I have my concerns about the long-term health effects of ketogenic diets, but you have to admit that diets like Atkins have worked for many people--including some very seriously overweight people--when other diets have failed. For that I'm willing to give it some leeway.

[l82start]

i don't disagree, the idea of permanent or long term ketosis seems iffy at best, short term (for weight-loss/system resets ) and in and out (intermittent fasting) have a much better overlap with human historic dietary patterns.

gut biome and human health, including the mental and emotional connections are a cutting edge area of health. the connections are both incredible and weird.

[Don]

Exercise every day at the same time. Get into the habit and don't miss days. I do it in a fasted condition every day before breakfast. Be committed.

[WiseOne]

This probably doesn't impact morbid obesity too much, but I find that I tend to put on weight in unhealthy areas (e.g. tummy) when I'm under a lot of stress. Once it resolves or at least drops to a manageable level, the weight magically drops as well. I don't consciously do anything different, but I think my "stop eating I'm full" signal seems to be disabled under stress. There's also a lot of research pointing to the damaging effects of long-term high cortisol stimulation.

Not sure what exactly to do about it other than get better at stress management. Exercise certainly helps, but for me the short bursts in the gym aren't nearly as effective as a good 2 hour bike ride. Working occasional days from home has helped a lot too. It feels like a vacation day even though I get more done than I would in the office.

[Maddy]

I've been reading that weight around the middle is often seen in association with high blood sugar levels, which fits nicely within the stress/cortisol paradigm. I've also been reading that the accumulation of fat in this particular region is believed to contribute to the onset of a wide array of diseases commonly thought of as age-related, the common denominator of which appears to be chronic inflammation. Seems that visceral fat and the visible "spare tire" which accompany it are a powerful generator of inflammatory cytokines.

Of course, middle aged hormonal issues have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[farjean2]

I just experienced some significant and needed weight loss - about 15 lbs in 30 days. I can thank a head cold that I couldn't seem to shake for it. I attribute it to 3 things all of which suppressed my appetite....

1.) No Alcohol - not only does it add calories to the diet but it releases inhibitions which can cause me to overeat

2.) Very little exercise - I find that exercise isn't such a good idea when I have a lot of weight to lose, especially cardio. It just seems to make me hungry so it's a losing battle. Good to maintain weight but not lose it, at least for me.

3.) Sudafed - I think one of the ingredients is the same thing they put in diet pills so I only ate about one small meal a day along with an occasional piece of fruit

(BTW, I noticed the OP hasn't been back. Maybe it was something somebody said).

[Mark Leavy]

I just experienced some significant and needed weight loss - about 15 lbs in 30 days. I can thank a head cold that I couldn't seem to shake for it. I attribute it to 3 things all of which suppressed my appetite....

1.) No Alcohol - not only does it add calories to the diet but it releases inhibitions which can cause me to overeat

2.) Very little exercise - I find that exercise isn't such a good idea when I have a lot of weight to lose, especially cardio. It just seems to make me hungry so it's a losing battle. Good to maintain weight but not lose it, at least for me.

3.) Sudafed - I think one of the ingredients is the same thing they put in diet pills so I only ate about one small meal a day along with an occasional piece of fruit

(BTW, I noticed the OP hasn't been back. Maybe it was something somebody said).

farjean2, your method is one of the few "1/2 pound per day" methods that I believe would really work.

As an aside, I once recommended a diet of unlimited vodka and slim jims - with a few eggs added to a good friend of mine. I knew she wanted to drop a lot of weight before a wedding and I had no expectation that she would give up the vodka. It worked. She looked pretty good in that dress.

Also... I have been considering a new career drumming up business for suicide hot-lines.

[Benko]

As we get older (40-50 or more) our body's become less insulin sensitive.

https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/ ... metformin/

You can take metformin, but I've had good luck with Gymnostemma (works via AMPK):

https://examine.com/supplements/gynoste ... taphyllum/

There are now 4 people I know who have taken it (all over 40) and slowly lost weight (without really doing anything else).

Dose 2-3 grams (5:1 extract) per day.

[Maddy]

As we get older (40-50 or more) our body's become less insulin sensitive.

https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/ ... metformin/

You can take metformin, but I've had good luck with Gymnostemma (works via AMPK):

https://examine.com/supplements/gynoste ... taphyllum/

There are now 4 people I know who have taken it (all over 40) and slowly lost weight (without really doing anything else).

Dose 2-3 grams (5:1 extract) per day.

Okay, now you've got me confused. I have been reading that you want to reduce the weight (particularly the fat around the middle) in order to increase insulin sensitivity (i.e., reverse insulin resistance). But your post would suggest that increasing insulin sensitivity promotes weight loss. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

[Benko]

Maddy,

1. "Okay, now you've got me confused. I have been reading that you want to reduce the weight (particularly the fat around the middle) in order to increase insulin sensitivity (i.e., reverse insulin resistance). But your post would suggest that increasing insulin sensitivity promotes weight loss. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?"

Check out Peter Attia’s TED talk on insulin resistance (mentioned in the following article) and

DOES INSULIN RESISTANCE CAUSE WEIGHT GAIN, OR VICE VERSA?
https://blog.ourpath.co.uk/diabetes-sci ... ice-versa/

"From the work I’ve highlighted above, weight gain is likely to be strongly driven by insulin resistance and/or hyperinsulinaemia, coupled with glucagon action."

2. I ran across gynostemma through research on AMPK, found encouraging research on it at examine.com and in my TCM (traditional chinese medicine sources), and though n=4 is tiny, seems to be helpful in weight loss.

[Maddy]

Wow. Fantastic article, Benko. Thank you.

[dualstow]

I've recently fallen in love with my own baked pasta woth mozzarella and parmesan. Doesn't really dovetail with weight reduction.

[Maddy]

Re gynostemma, there is a confusing smorgasbord of formulations. Any particular one, Benko, that you would recommend?

Also, any experience with berberine and/or gymnema for restoring insulin sensitivity?

[Maddy]

I've recently fallen in love with my own baked pasta woth mozzarella and parmesan. Doesn't really dovetail with weight reduction.

Stop torturing me.

[dualstow]

I've recently fallen in love with my own baked pasta woth mozzarella and parmesan. Doesn't really dovetail with weight reduction.

Recipe? You can't make that statement and not share with your gyroscopic buddies!

Ha! Tomorrow, I promise. I'm already changing the sauce for next time, though (to Bolognese).

[Benko]

Maddy,

Gynostemma: There are probably a lot of fine options, but I tend to be picky. My bias is to always buy e.g. chinese herbs from chinese herbal companies. I'm also used to buying powdered extracts and taking in warm water (gynostemma taste isn't that strong).
However the company I use has been out ofstock for months. This looks like a good place to buy from:

https://primalherb.com/product/gynostemma-extract/ you can probably get a wholesale discount since you're a doctor.
NB: I have not ordered from them before, just call and make sure they have good QC e.g. stuff tested for heavy metals, etc.

Dosing is not standardized. I'll get back to you over the weekend with dosing after I check with a chinese herbalist I know.

If you want caps, iherb carries paradise herbs:

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Paradise-Herbs ... -Caps/4637

Oh and I posted an abstract outside this thread (so all could see it) on gynostemma AKA Jiaogulan for weight loss.


Insulin sensitivity:

If you didn't aleady, check out this:
https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/ ... metformin/



One other way to increase insulin sensitivity is fasting. I think intermittent fasting can increase it, but also fasts of 3 days or more can produce a number of significant health benefits. Similar results can be gotten via FMD (fasting mimicking diets) and there is research to back this up (scroll down):

https://www.lifebox.diet/blogs/practica ... -core-plan

You can just google fasting mimicking diets for recipes, or there are two companies which will send you the food for a 5 day cycle. I'm on day 2 of 5 of a fasting mimicking diet from https://www.lifebox.diet/. Prolon is the other company and Dr. Longo from that company is the one who first did the research and then started making the food available.

[Benko]

Maddy,

Beyond knowing that the 3 other people (besides me) who took gynostemma lost weight, I don't.

[Maddy]

Thanks, Benko. Very good information.

Just for the record, though, I'm not a doctor. I always had an interest in medicine and started out pre-med in college. But alas, my talent lay elsewhere, and I bombed out quite decisively halfway through organic chemistry. After going into law, I did a few higher-end PI and med mal cases and always thoroughly enjoyed delving into the medicine and working with expert medical witnesses.

[Benko]

Maddy,

My apologies. I vaguely knew it didn't seem right as I was typing it. I was thinking of WiseOne.

[dualstow]

...baked pasta woth mozzarella and parmesan. Doesn't really dovetail with weight reduction.

Recipe? You can't make that statement and not share with your gyroscopic buddies!

I started out with this very simple recipe: https://www.pillsbury.com/recipes/baked ... 656d5d422b
and have been modifying here and there.
I used regular rigatoni mezze, as I don't like whole wheat pasta very much.
I used a pasta sauce that includes some pork sausage.
Now I'm replacing the sauce with a homemade bolognese sauce, which generally includes both beef and pork (but more beef).
For that, I ambitiously began with a recipe from a real Italian friend. But, halfway through the translating process , I felt it wasn't that different from the English-language recipes I can find online. Some have mushrooms, others don't, but the core ingredients are there.

Again, this feels funny in a weight loss thread, but something about cooking things on the stove and then bringing them all together for baking makes magic happen.