Math is cis-heteronormative racism!

[vnatale]

My oldest, who is a math major, uses the show your work to her advantage a lot it seems, which makes sense to me.

I recall some professors giving credit for showing work if you were on the right path, but still got the wrong answer, and others did not.

Way back in the spring of 1980 I taught two sections of managerial accounting at the University of Massachusetts.

I created my own exams and there would be some problems worth 20 points out of the 100 total.

I have extreme patience and I'd thoroughly read all that the students put on their exams (which were three hours long).

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Each time I did that I thought of my friend who also taught and who was on a (long) path to getting his PhD in accounting. And, who had little patience. I kept thinking that he'd look at the answer being wrong and give 0 points for the same answer I gave 19.

Half the class got A's from me. Those were not easy A's. It required a lot of studying for those three hour exams. A fair amount of the students needed all three hours to complete the exam.

[pp4me]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

[vnatale]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

[pp4me]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

[dualstow]

Maybe this is the lunch calories talking, but I think Vinny's making sense. Obviously, they have to get it 100% right in the real world -- heart surgery, same -- but in the classroom, seems like the order of mistakes and correct thinking should not matter.

[pp4me]

Maybe this is the lunch calories talking, but I think Vinny's making sense. Obviously, they have to get it 100% right in the real world -- heart surgery, same -- but in the classroom, seems like the order of mistakes and correct thinking should not matter.

I made my way in the world through software engineering (aka computer programming) so all I can is "this does not compute".

[dualstow]

Maybe this is the lunch calories talking, but I think Vinny's making sense. Obviously, they have to get it 100% right in the real world -- heart surgery, same -- but in the classroom, seems like the order of mistakes and correct thinking should not matter.

I made my way in the world through software engineering (aka computer programming) so all I can is "this does not compute".

Half the time, I couldn't get my programs written in C to compile before I had the chance to even find out that they did not compute.
I shouldn't say half the time. I struggled to compile in the early days of the course. Before long, I was quickly finding out that my finished EXEs did not compute.

[pp4me]

Maybe this is the lunch calories talking, but I think Vinny's making sense. Obviously, they have to get it 100% right in the real world -- heart surgery, same -- but in the classroom, seems like the order of mistakes and correct thinking should not matter.

I made my way in the world through software engineering (aka computer programming) so all I can is "this does not compute".

Half the time, I couldn't get my programs written in C to compile before I had the chance to even find out that they did not compute.
I shouldn't say half the time. I struggled to compile in the early days of the course. Before long, I was quickly finding out that my finished EXEs did not compute.

I have actually made million dollar mistakes in my career. But you have to work hard and establish a reputation for being correct all the time before you can get there and still keep your job.

[vnatale]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

To the contrary. I've found the world far less demanding than the exams were. The exams were black and white while the world is quite gray.

[vnatale]

Maybe this is the lunch calories talking, but I think Vinny's making sense. Obviously, they have to get it 100% right in the real world -- heart surgery, same -- but in the classroom, seems like the order of mistakes and correct thinking should not matter.

Not true in the real world. Most professionals fall far short of getting it 100% right. A lot of them have a "good enough" attitude.

A frequent criticism of me is that I am too thorough.

[pp4me]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

To the contrary. I've found the world far less demanding than the exams were. The exams were black and white while the world is quite gray.

Accounting isn't black and white but gray? Please enlighten us further.

[vnatale]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

To the contrary. I've found the world far less demanding than the exams were. The exams were black and white while the world is quite gray.

Accounting isn't black and white but gray? Do tell.

In my last position we were audited each year. One time we had three different auditors in three consecutive years. It was eye opening to me that given the same fact pattern for something how each of them had drastically different opinions of how the accounting for that something should result from those facts.

Just one example...not regarding them...but every day accounting.

An organization has accounts receivable - amounts owed by its customers to which it has extended credit. Some of the amounts are quite past due. Every accounting period you review those past dues to decide which ones to write off or to decide if your allowance for bad debts is high enough to cover any that will have to be written off in the future.

You can have ten different accountants looks at that exact same list of accounts receivable and all its detail and you will end up with 15 different answers because half of them will change their mind.

That is just one example of the judgments that go into doing the accounting for an organization.

Somewhat the same goes for tax returns. Same fact pattern is not going to get the same results from different tax preparers.

[dualstow]

Maybe this is the lunch calories talking, but I think Vinny's making sense. Obviously, they have to get it 100% right in the real world -- heart surgery, same -- but in the classroom, seems like the order of mistakes and correct thinking should not matter.

Not true in the real world. Most professionals fall far short of getting it 100% right. A lot of them have a "good enough" attitude.
...

You’re fired.

[Hal]

Even the Mises Institute is discussing this
https://mises.org/wire/math-racist-does-not-compute

And the Government is racist because it does not grant the vote to my Collie dogs
(Actually I think they can judge character better than most people)

[pp4me]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

To the contrary. I've found the world far less demanding than the exams were. The exams were black and white while the world is quite gray.

Accounting isn't black and white but gray? Do tell.

In my last position we were audited each year. One time we had three different auditors in three consecutive years. It was eye opening to me that given the same fact pattern for something how each of them had drastically different opinions of how the accounting for that something should result from those facts.

Just one example...not regarding them...but every day accounting.

An organization has accounts receivable - amounts owed by its customers to which it has extended credit. Some of the amounts are quite past due. Every accounting period you review those past dues to decide which ones to write off or to decide if your allowance for bad debts is high enough to cover any that will have to be written off in the future.

You can have ten different accountants looks at that exact same list of accounts receivable and all its detail and you will end up with 15 different answers because half of them will change their mind.

That is just one example of the judgments that go into doing the accounting for an organization.

Somewhat the same goes for tax returns. Same fact pattern is not going to get the same results from different tax preparers.

You said that you didn't consider an answer wrong just because of an "initial error". So did that initial error have to involve the kinds of subtle nuances you are describing or could it have even been just plain wrong to get you to accept it?

[vnatale]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

To the contrary. I've found the world far less demanding than the exams were. The exams were black and white while the world is quite gray.

Accounting isn't black and white but gray? Do tell.

In my last position we were audited each year. One time we had three different auditors in three consecutive years. It was eye opening to me that given the same fact pattern for something how each of them had drastically different opinions of how the accounting for that something should result from those facts.

Just one example...not regarding them...but every day accounting.

An organization has accounts receivable - amounts owed by its customers to which it has extended credit. Some of the amounts are quite past due. Every accounting period you review those past dues to decide which ones to write off or to decide if your allowance for bad debts is high enough to cover any that will have to be written off in the future.

You can have ten different accountants looks at that exact same list of accounts receivable and all its detail and you will end up with 15 different answers because half of them will change their mind.

That is just one example of the judgments that go into doing the accounting for an organization.

Somewhat the same goes for tax returns. Same fact pattern is not going to get the same results from different tax preparers.

You said that you didn't consider an answer wrong just because of an "initial error". So did that initial error have to involve the kinds of subtle nuances you are describing or could it have even been just plain wrong to get you to accept it?

You are asking me to use nearly 41 year old memory to answer. I believe the initial wrong start was immaterial in the light of all the work that still needed to be done correctly to get to a final result.

[pp4me]

I had the patience to see where a student made an initial error at the start but then did all of the rest correctly so that I'd give the student 19 out of the 20 points.

Say what?

You didn't think making initial errors at the start were all that important?

Not sure I'd want to have one of your students doing my accounting.

If there were ten parts to the problem and all but nine parts were correct then the student was demonstrating understanding aside from making an initial mistake. It'd be silly to give the student no points for getting nine of the ten parts of the computation correct.

Fair enough but I hope you cautioned your students that the real world will judge them more harshly.

To the contrary. I've found the world far less demanding than the exams were. The exams were black and white while the world is quite gray.

Accounting isn't black and white but gray? Do tell.

In my last position we were audited each year. One time we had three different auditors in three consecutive years. It was eye opening to me that given the same fact pattern for something how each of them had drastically different opinions of how the accounting for that something should result from those facts.

Just one example...not regarding them...but every day accounting.

An organization has accounts receivable - amounts owed by its customers to which it has extended credit. Some of the amounts are quite past due. Every accounting period you review those past dues to decide which ones to write off or to decide if your allowance for bad debts is high enough to cover any that will have to be written off in the future.

You can have ten different accountants looks at that exact same list of accounts receivable and all its detail and you will end up with 15 different answers because half of them will change their mind.

That is just one example of the judgments that go into doing the accounting for an organization.

Somewhat the same goes for tax returns. Same fact pattern is not going to get the same results from different tax preparers.

You said that you didn't consider an answer wrong just because of an "initial error". So did that initial error have to involve the kinds of subtle nuances you are describing or could it have even been just plain wrong to get you to accept it?

You are asking me to use nearly 41 year old memory to answer. I believe the initial wrong start was immaterial in the light of all the work that still needed to be done correctly to get to a final result.

Fair enough. I took one course in accounting when I went to technical school for "Business Data Processing". I aced it because to me it was all straightforward math and logic. Didn't run into any of the nuanced stuff you were talking about that I really had to think about. Presumably that would have come later if I was getting a degree in accounting.

[vnatale]

Fair enough. I took one course in accounting when I went to technical school for "Business Data Processing". I aced it because to me it was all straightforward math and logic. Didn't run into any of the nuanced stuff you were talking about that I really had to think about. Presumably that would have come later if I was getting a degree in accounting.

It really did not ever come up while getting my undergraduate degree in accounting. It definitely came up when getting my graduate degree in accounting as that was all about questioning how things should be accounted for. And, finally, it again comes up in actually doing accounting for an organization.

[pp4me]

Fair enough. I took one course in accounting when I went to technical school for "Business Data Processing". I aced it because to me it was all straightforward math and logic. Didn't run into any of the nuanced stuff you were talking about that I really had to think about. Presumably that would have come later if I was getting a degree in accounting.

It really did not ever come up while getting my undergraduate degree in accounting. It definitely came up when getting my graduate degree in accounting as that was all about questioning how things should be accounted for. And, finally, it again comes up in actually doing accounting for an organization.

I was actually impressed with accounting at the time because it was all based on pure and simple rules that you could learn and follow and be a good accountant and make decent money.

Like they had to do landing a man on the moon using slide rules.

I don't know if the teacher gave passing grades for wrong answers or not.

[dualstow]

Like they had to do landing a man on the moon using slide rules.

As you probably know, despite that popular phrase they did have computers, albeit rudimentary ones.

[pp4me]

Like they had to do landing a man on the moon using slide rules.

As you probably know, despite that popular phrase they did have computers, albeit rudimentary ones.

Yes, I know but I was thinking about in the Movie Apollo 13 where they had to revert to some slide rules to do some calculations because the computers weren't working in extreme conditions.

[vnatale]

Fair enough. I took one course in accounting when I went to technical school for "Business Data Processing". I aced it because to me it was all straightforward math and logic. Didn't run into any of the nuanced stuff you were talking about that I really had to think about. Presumably that would have come later if I was getting a degree in accounting.

It really did not ever come up while getting my undergraduate degree in accounting. It definitely came up when getting my graduate degree in accounting as that was all about questioning how things should be accounted for. And, finally, it again comes up in actually doing accounting for an organization.

I was actually impressed with accounting at the time because it was all based on pure and simple rules that you could learn and follow and be a good accountant and make decent money.

Like they had to do landing a man on the moon using slide rules.

I don't know if the teacher gave passing grades for wrong answers or not.

When it came to the intermediate courses it was a lot like learning a foreign language. A lot of memorization. If these are the circumstances this is what you do.

I had a lot of frustration with those courses but I was actually doing accounting at the same time as the volunteer treasurer of a food coop so I knew that I did like real life accounting and persisted in getting my degree.

I'm assuming that your one accounting course was financial accounting? These are the entries you make for these circumstances, leading to creating financial statements?

I did not teach that course, which is less interesting accounting.

I taught two sections of managerial accounting, which was doing accounting for managing a business or organization, not for reporting to the outside world. That was far more interesting and useful.

Therefore there was a process to getting to a final answer. Could be 3, 5, or 10 steps to getting the final answer. If you made a silly mistake on the first step but got all the rest of the steps correct that would be telling me you did know the material but just made an initial error. It took a lot of time on my part to follow through the rest of the steps to make sure that they were correct based upon the wrong initial step. A lot more difficult than just seeing a final wrong answer and giving no points at all.

Financial accounting was a lot more black and white. Generally there would not be given any partial credit given for much more simple questions.

[vnatale]

Like they had to do landing a man on the moon using slide rules.

As you probably know, despite that popular phrase they did have computers, albeit rudimentary ones.

How Much Computing Power Was Used for the Apollo 11 Moon Landing?

The amount of computing power used for the Apollo 11 moon landing on 20 July 1969 was 0.043 MHz, or less than that of a pocket calculator, a thumb drive or even a modern toaster. A computer system known as the Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) was created at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and allowed the astronauts to control the spacecraft by typing simple commands of nouns and verbs. Astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were able to land on the moon because of the AGC’s ability to navigate distance of about 221,208 miles (356,000 km).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pp4me]

I taught two sections of managerial accounting, which was doing accounting for managing a business or organization, not for reporting to the outside world. That was far more interesting and useful.

Sounds really sinister.

I'm binge watching "Billions" on Amazon/Showtime until my cancelled subscription runs out.

[vnatale]

I taught two sections of managerial accounting, which was doing accounting for managing a business or organization, not for reporting to the outside world. That was far more interesting and useful.

Sounds really sinister.

I'm binge watching "Billions" on Amazon/Showtime until my cancelled subscription runs out.

Not sinister at all. It is accounting to promote both efficiency and effectiveness within an organization.