Declaration of Independence

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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:16 am

Wow, great rebuttal. I can see you put a lot of thought and effort into it, as usual. ::)
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Xan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:56 am

I guess for me the question is whether somebody can simply be wrong, or whether that person has to be guilty of thoughtcrime and debate completely shut down.

So the actual correctness of the particular claims are still beside the point.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:15 am

Xan wrote:I guess for me the question is whether somebody can simply be wrong, or whether that person has to be guilty of thoughtcrime and debate completely shut down.

So the actual correctness of the particular claims are still beside the point.
I guess you'd have to define what you mean by thoughtcrime, because for me it connotes a science fictionally, Orwellian scenario in which you are not allowed to harbor private thoughts. I have occasionally racist thoughts that show up like uninvited knockers at my front door, and I shoo them away. But I also took the time to weigh the for-and-against that followed 'The Bell Curve'.

Charles Murray, obviously, is not silently thinking his racist thoughts, or we wouldn't know about it. He has published it, and continues to put out his theories despite the critical reviews. That's fine. He hasn't committed any crimes, hasn't called for violence, not even close. But he has written and said enough to warrant being on that list. Should he be on a separate list with a milder title that doesn't include the word "Hate"? Perhaps. It's not my list. It's not a perfect fit, nor is this a perfect world. He's certainly in my "book" of pseudoscience racists.

Should the debate be "completely shut down"? I refer you to what I said early on in this thread -- and now I can't find it!!! -- was there a server hiccup?

I wrote that the SPLC is one thing, but can't be held responsible for the morons who rioted at Middlebury. I wrote please don't lump me in with those Social Justice Warriors. I wrote that David Duke should be allowed to speak at universities as long as he is invited, and he should be protected going to and coming from that speech. Same for Murray.

Please, someone tell me that you saw this post. I saw it go through after I submitted it, and now I am unable to find it. Posted in other thread?
In any case, that's what I wrote, and that's how I feel.

I just don't know what to do with the word "thoughtcrime."
---
Edited: -->Changed 'help responsible' to held responsible.
Last edited by dualstow on Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:20 am

Re: missing post, it would have been between Xan's 9:32 post (with the four links) and my 9:52 post, both yesterday. (Obviously your time zone may vary). You can see me quoting myself saying
I did find one troubling line in that article
but my original post saying it is nowhere to be found. That post was the main rebuttal to the Geller page that Xan linked to.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:22 am

Xan wrote:I guess for me the question is whether somebody can simply be wrong, or whether that person has to be guilty of thoughtcrime and debate completely shut down.

So the actual correctness of the particular claims are still beside the point.
Of course the debate must be shut down if someone commits a thoughtcrime. That's the whole reason behind the notion of thoughtcrime. If it were possible to discuss issues without that "safeguard", politically incorrect facts might be used to persuade people+
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Xan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:38 am

Dualstow, I only ever saw the post that's there now. I assumed that you had edited your original post, which included little other than "I did find one troubling line in that article", and then you expanded on that with the results of your digging.

Maybe you edited it by accident, deleting almost everything except the part you were quoting?

I don't really see any other reason for a "hate list" to exist apart from telling everyone who should be ignored. It's a blacklist. Its purpose is to keep people from listening to those who are on the list.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:48 am

Xan wrote:Dualstow, I only ever saw the post that's there now. I assumed that you had edited your original post, which included little other than "I did find one troubling line in that article", and then you expanded on that with the results of your digging.

Maybe you edited it by accident, deleting almost everything except the part you were quoting?
That's exactly the theory I put in a PM to Tenn a few seconds ago. If it's not a hiccup, it's the only explanation I can think of.
Well, shit. O0 That missing post was the long one, and the one that's there was just a tiny addendum. No wonder I felt like you weren't reading along with the class, asking about thoughtcrimes.

Well, you have my answer, and maybe it'll stick this time, even if the original timing would have been better.
I don't really see any other reason for a "hate list" to exist apart from telling everyone who should be ignored. It's a blacklist. Its purpose is to keep people from listening to those who are on the list.
For those who reject those members of the scientific community who claim to find significant errors with the way Murray collected and/or interpreted data, I'm sure they will similarly reject anything the SPLC has to say.

If the SPLC were ever to get to the level of Jesse Jackson shakedown status, or even the Better Business Bureau's pay-for-a-grade level, it would be time to reassess the. In the meantime, the FBI still uses them-

ahh, that reminds me, that was an important part of my missing post. It was a link to and excerpts from media matters. I guess I'll have to repost that. Here it comes... // No, that text is intact.
Last edited by dualstow on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:54 am

While I can't recall everything I wrote in the main post after your 4 links, Xan, here's what I remember. I started out saying that I was reading your second link first because I had been reading about the Middlebury mob in the WSJ -- not SJW, WSJ O0 -- of late.

That's when I said that the rioters were morons, that David Duke should be allowed to speak, etc. But, I also said that the SPLC is not responsible for those rioters, and I doubt that they even read things like the SPLC.

I also wrote, "Pamela Geller, really Xan?" and then posted this:

No, The FBI Hasn't Ditched The Southern Poverty Law Center
(Deleted excerpts, as it's all intact. Not part of missing post).
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:18 pm

Thanks to the first amendment--enabled by the declaration of independence (see what I did there? ;) )--we have the freedom to argue over who's hateful, and none of it has any legal consequences. The SPLC's list is definitely an attempt at a blacklist, saying, "feel free to shun and ignore these people." That's fine. People have the right to ignore other people or groups with whom they disagree. And the controversy surrounding the SPLC's alleged bias makes the intended hate blacklist less effective; people who approve of them take it seriously, and people who think they're biased ignore them and their list.

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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:20 pm

Yep.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:57 pm

Well guys, I got accosted by the clipboard mafia asking for donations for SPLC both going into and coming out of CVS. "We fight the KKK!"
I just had to laugh as I walked on through, and thought of this thread. O0

EDIT: forgot to say it was specifically the SPLC.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by farjean2 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:24 pm

Xan wrote:The question at hand here isn't whether blacks have lower IQs (I have no idea), or whether that's malleable (I assume it would be), or whether even if true it can or should affect anybody's interaction with any individual (it certainly shouldn't).

Is it a thought crime (aka "hate") to suggest the idea? That's the question here.
Is there one honest person here who doesn't believe that blacks, on the average, have lower IQs than whites? Seriously?

I would suggest that the average black person is smart enough to know that is true whether they admit or not (and I'm just talking about the average, please).

I read somewhere that there is some kind of test that can measure innate intelligence by simply having someone stare at a dot on the wall but it isn't going any where due to the socio-political ramifications. Don't know if that is actually true but I respect the person who wrote it and his scientific acumen.

The standard pecking order today as far as intelligence goes from highest to lowest IQ seems to be Jews, Asians, Whites, Blacks (forget latinos, that's mostly made up and most are white or mixed).

I'm #3, the lower half of the totem poll myself. Does that bother me? Not at all. Seems about right to me (though Asian is WAY too broad a category based on my experience - probably the same holds true for other racial groups as well).
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:36 pm

farjean2 wrote:Is there one honest person here who doesn't believe that blacks, on the average, have lower IQs than whites? Seriously?

The standard pecking order today as far as intelligence goes from highest to lowest IQ seems to be Jews, Asians, Whites, Blacks (forget latinos, that's mostly made up and most are white or mixed).
Is this in the States or in the world?
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by farjean2 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:57 pm

dualstow wrote:
farjean2 wrote:Is there one honest person here who doesn't believe that blacks, on the average, have lower IQs than whites? Seriously?

The standard pecking order today as far as intelligence goes from highest to lowest IQ seems to be Jews, Asians, Whites, Blacks (forget latinos, that's mostly made up and most are white or mixed).
Is this in the States or in the world?
No other country that I know of has the cultural/racial differences that the U.S.A. has, so I',m talking only the U.S.A. to have any significant statistics worth giving credence to. We are still the great melting pot of races, as far as I know.

In regards to blacks, they didn't come of their own free will which is one thing I will grant them in their favor in regards to IQ. We probably didn't get the best and brightest. Just the most easily caught by the slave traders. In regards to other immigrants, we may not have gotten the best and brightest but we probably got the most ambitious and adventurous so that should probably be factored in.

But Okay, now we are in a thread about the Declaration of Independence and All men being created Equal, so I have to step back and think about it.

Basically, I think it is a nice concept and one we should follow, but NO, I don't think it is really true.
Simonjester wrote:
i don't think the equal in the declaration is referring to physically or mentally equal anyway, it is being equal with regards to our rights that they are talking about..
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:32 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Xan wrote:The question at hand here isn't whether blacks have lower IQs (I have no idea), or whether that's malleable (I assume it would be), or whether even if true it can or should affect anybody's interaction with any individual (it certainly shouldn't).

Is it a thought crime (aka "hate") to suggest the idea? That's the question here.
Is there one honest person here who doesn't believe that blacks, on the average, have lower IQs than whites? Seriously?

I would suggest that the average black person is smart enough to know that is true whether they admit or not (and I'm just talking about the average, please).

I read somewhere that there is some kind of test that can measure innate intelligence by simply having someone stare at a dot on the wall but it isn't going any where due to the socio-political ramifications. Don't know if that is actually true but I respect the person who wrote it and his scientific acumen.

The standard pecking order today as far as intelligence goes from highest to lowest IQ seems to be Jews, Asians, Whites, Blacks (forget latinos, that's mostly made up and most are white or mixed).

I'm #3, the lower half of the totem poll myself. Does that bother me? Not at all. Seems about right to me (though Asian is WAY too broad a category based on my experience - probably the same holds true for other racial groups as well).
You are not allowed to notice this; it is thoughtcrime!

Please report to the nearest re-education center to improve your attitude! :P

(Of course it is NOT thoughtcrime to notice that blacks dominate in many sports...)
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:34 pm

Simonjester wrote:
farjean2 wrote: But Okay, now we are in a thread about the Declaration of Independence and All men being created Equal, so I have to step back and think about it.

Basically, I think it is a nice concept and one we should follow, but NO, I don't think it is really true.
i don't think the equal in the declaration is referring to physically or mentally equal anyway, it is being equal with regards to our rights that they are talking about..
Correct, and I think that it is a great step forward that we actually try to apply that definition of equality (equal rights) to everyone in the United States, which the white men who signed the Declaration of Independence didn't always do, to put it mildly.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:03 pm

Remember this thread?

The Week, which I consider to be fairly left and liberal, slammed the SPLC today:

http://theweek.com/articles/759498/sad- ... law-center

“The sad hysteria of the Southern Poverty Law Center”
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:44 pm

Christina Hoff Sommers... a "known fascist."

These fuckwits are the intellectual equivalent of People Of Walmart.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by ochotona » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:51 pm

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

Honor is mostly gone now.
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