Bitcoin Costs More than Gold?

[eufo]

http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/E ... V06/05.mp3

Lol! Hey, at least it's still around in the year 3000, right?

[bitcoininthevp]

I am happy to answer any specific questions that anyone has about bitcoin. In this thread or PM if youd like.

A common misconception that I see in this thread is an overemphasis on "bitcoin isnt 'accepted' many places".

Bitcoin is definitely a payment network, dont get me wrong. But bitcoin is more digital gold than Visa. If that makes sense.

It is digital gold because there is a limited, known supply of bitcoin. It has value because people give it value. Its subjective value. (like all things of value I would add)

If you are really wanting to press the payment side of things there is purse.io where you can get your amazon wishlist items purchased on your behalf and you pay bitcoin and get % discount. I routinely get 20%+ off on my orders. Including new appliances recently.

But again, the payment... the "using it to pay" is not the main value proposition of bitcoin. You buy it and use it to store value. You can send it to people overseas. It can be used to circumvent government controls (yes, that could be drugs. but it could also be donating to wikileaks)

Yes, its volatile while it is very young still. Yes, it could go to zero.

Hope this ramble brought some clarity. Lets keep the discussion going.

[thisisallen]

Q: can you buy gold with Bitcoin?

[bitcoininthevp]

Q: can you buy gold with Bitcoin?

Yes Peter Schiff's company takes bitcoin as payment: https://schiffgold.com/gold-for-btc.html

So does https://www.jmbullion.com
and https://www.providentmetals.com

There are others as well.

[MWKXJ]

Bought 32 for $20 when Bitcoin was approximately .60 cents a piece (2011?). Sold the lot for around $700 or $900 (can't recall). Dollar-cost-averaged back in when the price was around $350 and now have $17,000 in unrealized gain. It'll be tempting to pay off what's left on the mortgage should Bitcoin's value increase by another couple thousand, but it's an exciting technology/investment and it would be discouraging to miss out on an catalyst such as SEC approval of a Bitcoin ETF, or, a dysfunctional nation-state adopting the currency (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, etc.).

A suggestion for any investing in Bitcoin is to choose a period of low price volatility to dollar-cost average in. Use the 3-day or one-week view at BitcoinWisdom.com. You'll see we're currently in a strong run up. I'd wait and invest after things cool off, again, by dollar-cost-averaging in.

[whatchamacallit]

$2800 today
It seems like it doubled in less than a month.

[Libertarian666]

$2800 today
It seems like it doubled in less than a month.

Sounds like a great time to get in. It has nowhere to go but up.

Like silver in late 1979!

[frugal]

I am happy to answer any specific questions that anyone has about bitcoin. In this thread or PM if youd like.

A common misconception that I see in this thread is an overemphasis on "bitcoin isnt 'accepted' many places".

Bitcoin is definitely a payment network, dont get me wrong. But bitcoin is more digital gold than Visa. If that makes sense.

It is digital gold because there is a limited, known supply of bitcoin. It has value because people give it value. Its subjective value. (like all things of value I would add)

If you are really wanting to press the payment side of things there is purse.io where you can get your amazon wishlist items purchased on your behalf and you pay bitcoin and get % discount. I routinely get 20%+ off on my orders. Including new appliances recently.

But again, the payment... the "using it to pay" is not the main value proposition of bitcoin. You buy it and use it to store value. You can send it to people overseas. It can be used to circumvent government controls (yes, that could be drugs. but it could also be donating to wikileaks)

Yes, its volatile while it is very young still. Yes, it could go to zero.

Hope this ramble brought some clarity. Lets keep the discussion going.

hi friend,

some more questions,

- why can it comes to ZERO?

- Advantages of internet coin?

- Disadvantages ?

:-)

Regards

[bitcoininthevp]

- why can it comes to ZERO?

Most likely scenario is that humans no longer attribute value to a finite, internet-based, money. I dont see this happening.

- Advantages of internet coin?

From a tech perspective:
- Email vs Snail mail
- Wikipedia vs Encyclopedia Britannica
- Netflix vs Blockbuster

Digital internet based products and services replacing traditional products and services. Bitcoin is internet money. Traditional money can be internet money but its got much more friction.

With bitcoin:
- Sovereign money
- Send money without legal concerns
- Send money across borders
- Asset with finite supply
- No physical storage concerns
- Circumvent governmental controls (drugs, oppressive regimes)

- Disadvantages ?

- Technical glitches could occur which are unrecoverable
- Incorrect assumptions about the incentives in bitcoin could cause failures
- Governments could ban it
- Volatile

[dualstow]

Would it be fair to add this disadvantage? :

- Seller does not deliver goods upon payment. No recourse, at least not like there is with credit cards.

[bitcoininthevp]

Would it be fair to add this disadvantage? :

- Seller does not deliver goods upon payment. No recourse, at least not like there is with credit cards.

This is completely true with simple bitcoin payments, yes. Bitcoin favors the merchant in this regard. A simple, bitcoin based economy would rely much more heavily on reputation systems of merchants and much less on chargebacks.

That being said, you can "program" bitcoin in different ways. For example, I can put money into a bitcoin escrow account where 2-of-3 people have to sign for the transaction to be valid. So say, I am buying something from you, you are a signer, I am a signer and a 3rd party arbiter is the 3rd signer. If you dont deliver my order, you and I provide our evidence to the arbiter and they can decide who is right and where the money goes as the tie breaking vote.

[dualstow]

Interesting about the arbiter, thank you!

[bitcoininthevp]

Interesting about the arbiter, thank you!

If you are curious there are more applications
(via https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multisignatu ... ons.5B3.5D)

1-of-2: Husband and wife petty cash account — the signature of either spouse is sufficient to spend the funds.

2-of-2: Husband and wife savings account — both signatures are required to spend the funds, preventing one spouse from spending the money without the approval of the other

2-of-2: One wallet is on your primary computer, the other on your smartphone — the funds cannot be spent without a signature from both devices. Thus, an attacker must gain access to both devices in order to steal your funds (much more difficult than one device)

2-of-3: Parents’ savings account for child — the kid can spend the money with the approval of either parent, and money cannot be taken away from the child unless both parents agree

2-of-3: A board of three directors maintaining funds for their organization — those funds cannot be spent unless any two of those directors agrees. Bigger multi-signature transactions are possible for bigger organizations, such as 3-of-5, 5-of-9, etc.

2-of-3: Buyer-seller escrow: buyer commits money into a 2-of-3 transaction with the seller and a third-party arbitrator. If transaction goes smoothly, then both buyer and seller sign the transaction to forward the money to the seller. If something goes wrong, they can sign a transaction to refund the buyer. If they cannot agree, they both appeal to the third-party who will arbitrate and provide a second signature to the party that it deems deserves it.

[dualstow]

Cool. Dot IT,-- are you Italian? I have an Italian friend who is gaga for bitcoin. Name starts with E..are you him?

[bitcoininthevp]

Cool. Dot IT,-- are you Italian? I have an Italian friend who is gaga for bitcoin. Name starts with E..are you him?

Not him. That wiki just happens to be on .it domain.

[frugal]

- why can it comes to ZERO?

Most likely scenario is that humans no longer attribute value to a finite, internet-based, money. I dont see this happening.

- Advantages of internet coin?

From a tech perspective:
- Email vs Snail mail
- Wikipedia vs Encyclopedia Britannica
- Netflix vs Blockbuster

Digital internet based products and services replacing traditional products and services. Bitcoin is internet money. Traditional money can be internet money but its got much more friction.

With bitcoin:
- Sovereign money
- Send money without legal concerns
- Send money across borders
- Asset with finite supply
- No physical storage concerns
- Circumvent governmental controls (drugs, oppressive regimes)

- Disadvantages ?

- Technical glitches could occur which are unrecoverable
- Incorrect assumptions about the incentives in bitcoin could cause failures
- Governments could ban it
- Volatile

hi,

ethereum is not safe?

What do you suggest for whom is out now of bitcoins?

Regards

[bitcoininthevp]

ethereum is not safe?

I do not believe so. I know the price is rising for ETH and there is a ton of news and buzz.

However, currently there is no supply cap for the # of ETH. So think USD style inflation.

Additionally, ethereum is built on the idea that decentralized smart contracts are something that is better than centralized web services. Right now there are not really any smart contracts that are widely used on ethereum. There is a lot of hand waving here and I have not seen anything practical that people are using. Ive posted in ethereum forums asking for what those people are using on ethereum and no one gives me a good answer and promise "it will happen in the future". Maybe... maybe not.

Ethereum is also changing the way the transactions are processed. (from proof of work to proof of stake if you are interested). This switch hasnt happened in other cryptos before so it is risky. Also cryptos that are on proof of stake have been susceptible to attacks.

Another thing about ethereum that rubbed me the wrong way was that someone took advantage of one of the smart contracts to "steal" money. Instead of living by their mantra "the code is the law", the people running ethereum decided to "undo" the stealing. Essentially they were acting as a government deciding what transactions are good and which are bad. That sort of governance doesnt bode well for a "decentralized", censorship resistant platform.

What do you suggest for whom is out now of bitcoins?

Im not sure what you mean here, can you clarify?

[frugal]

ethereum is not safe?

I do not believe so. I know the price is rising for ETH and there is a ton of news and buzz.

However, currently there is no supply cap for the # of ETH. So think USD style inflation.

Additionally, ethereum is built on the idea that decentralized smart contracts are something that is better than centralized web services. Right now there are not really any smart contracts that are widely used on ethereum. There is a lot of hand waving here and I have not seen anything practical that people are using. Ive posted in ethereum forums asking for what those people are using on ethereum and no one gives me a good answer and promise "it will happen in the future". Maybe... maybe not.

Ethereum is also changing the way the transactions are processed. (from proof of work to proof of stake if you are interested). This switch hasnt happened in other cryptos before so it is risky. Also cryptos that are on proof of stake have been susceptible to attacks.

Another thing about ethereum that rubbed me the wrong way was that someone took advantage of one of the smart contracts to "steal" money. Instead of living by their mantra "the code is the law", the people running ethereum decided to "undo" the stealing. Essentially they were acting as a government deciding what transactions are good and which are bad. That sort of governance doesnt bode well for a "decentralized", censorship resistant platform.

What do you suggest for whom is out now of bitcoins?

Im not sure what you mean here, can you clarify?

hi friend

for newbies what do you suggest?

Bitcoin for investing a longterm buy and hold ?

Alt coins for daytrading?

Regards!

[ochotona]

Why do I get the idea that people are going to lose money on this Scheiss

[Libertarian666]

Why do I get the idea that people are going to lose money on this Scheiss

That's ridiculous! Why, look at how safe Beanie Baby investing was!

[LC475]

Another thing about ethereum that rubbed me the wrong way was that someone took advantage of one of the smart contracts to "steal" money. Instead of living by their mantra "the code is the law", the people running ethereum decided to "undo" the stealing. Essentially they were acting as a government deciding what transactions are good and which are bad. That sort of governance doesnt bode well for a "decentralized", censorship resistant platform.

Bitcoin started out the same way. There is some point in time, before which if Satoshi had said "wait, guys, something needs to be changed; here's new code," he could have started it over. Everyone would have gone along with it. No new (real, human) network can start out decentralized. It can become that way eventually.

Kind of parallel to the way civilizations rise, in a way.

Personal monarchy and absolutism > Increasingly law-based rule > Republic or something else more loose-knit > Incredible wealth and success > Empire > Collapse

It's those last two steps (or at least the very last one!) that we'd really like to avoid!

[bitcoininthevp]

for newbies what do you suggest?

Bitcoin for investing a longterm buy and hold ?

Alt coins for daytrading?

Im just some guy on the internet. But I like buy and hold, long on bitcoin only.

[bitcoininthevp]

Why do I get the idea that people are going to lose money on this Scheiss

That's ridiculous! Why, look at how safe Beanie Baby investing was!

You guys might enjoy the comparisons of the recent crypto bubbles to the South Sea Bubble of the 1700s.

http://www.coindesk.com/cryptocurrency- ... as-bubble/

[bitcoininthevp]

Another thing about ethereum that rubbed me the wrong way was that someone took advantage of one of the smart contracts to "steal" money. Instead of living by their mantra "the code is the law", the people running ethereum decided to "undo" the stealing. Essentially they were acting as a government deciding what transactions are good and which are bad. That sort of governance doesnt bode well for a "decentralized", censorship resistant platform.

Bitcoin started out the same way. There is some point in time, before which if Satoshi had said "wait, guys, something needs to be changed; here's new code," he could have started it over. Everyone would have gone along with it. No new (real, human) network can start out decentralized. It can become that way eventually.

Bitcoin started out the same way in that Satoshi could have unilaterally made changes to the project to steal peoples money. But he didnt. If Satoshi did that, it would have consequences. The later he took unilateral action in the project life the worse the consequences.

Vitalik, the ethereum project lead even said the other day: "we can just delete the attackers' deposits and keep going"
https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/stat ... 5593572353

Thats a nice sentiment, but doesnt make for good government-free money.

[LC475]

Bitcoin started out the same way in that Satoshi could have unilaterally made changes to the project to steal peoples money. But he didnt. If Satoshi did that, it would have consequences. The later he took unilateral action in the project life the worse the consequences.

Stealing money is not the only unilateral action he could have taken. He could have sent out an e-mail, "Hey, I discovered a really bad bug in my C code. Here's a new Genesis Block." Everyone would have switched.

Certainly the content and nature of the actions being taken in the early days matters, and is pretty much all that matters (or certainly matters the most). And I agree with you that the actions being taken by ethereum are poor, while those that were taken by bitcoin were better, and that differentiates them tremendously!

My point is just an academic one. Human networks and institutions must start out centralized. Here with bitcoin, we have a network that consciously is setting out to be decentralized. It really, really wants to be decentralized! More than anything else! That's its top priority, and the point of the whole project. And yet even it could not be decentralized in its early, formative stages. It literally could not. Why? Because of the nature of new networks. They are high-trust environments. Everybody trusts each other, and everybody trusts the government (Satoshi).

Machiavelli averred, and correctly I believe, that no new human institution can be created except under absolutist authority. (Discourses on Livy)