Lack of outrage

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l82start
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by l82start » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:45 pm

interesting that the top two stories that popped up googling narcissistic personality disorder were about the psychiatrist who wrote the definition (and who has nothing good to say about trump...)


"Frances countered, “Most amateur diagnosticians have mislabeled President Trump with the diagnosis of narcissistic
personality disorder. I wrote the criteria that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn’t meet them. He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder.”

He is no Trump booster, however, saying, “Mr. Trump causes severe distress rather than experiencing it and has been richly rewarded, rather than punished, for his grandiosity, self-absorption and lack of empathy. It is a stigmatizing insult to the mentally ill (who are mostly well behaved and well meaning) to be lumped with Mr. Trump (who is neither).”
{Frances was chairman of the group that wrote the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV, or psychiatry's "bible,"}
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by lazyboy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:31 am

So, best case, he's a pain in the ass world class narcissist ( WCN), who lacks empathy, make others suffer rather than suffer himself, is neither well meaning nor well behaved. He doesn't any need help because others are made to suffer so he feels OK and being this way is not disordered. Wunderbar.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by lazyboy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:26 am

technovelist wrote:
lazyboy wrote:Tech, getting beyond labels. You may not be a brownshirt, so I'm sorry. It did come off somewhat authoritarian "...at your peril " Sort of a threat- fear inducing. no? maybe not...I have no idea what you say you are or your beliefs are nor does it really matter.
I said that you underestimated him at your peril after saying this: "That is hazardous to your ability to form a realistic appraisal of someone who has defeated the following forces arrayed against him to win the Presidency".

Apparently that wasn't clear enough. So let me clarify that the only peril I was referring to was to your ability to appraise him realistically.

Is that clear enough now, or do you need further explanation?

"Discount him at your peril."
That is clear, thanks Tech. The confusion was created by you apparently referring to my being in peril for discounting him rather than to my thinking process. I'm not worried if you think my thinking is in peril. Yet, there are some individuals who conflate being and thinking. Since you made that distinction I'm glad to learn that doesn't describe yourself.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by TennPaGa » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:46 am

Desert wrote:It's a sad situation, but it's unfortunately not rare. Somehow Trump has this hold over people who were formerly conservatives or libertarians. I'll never understand it, because nothing about Trump has ever appealed to me. But it's undeniable that Trump has some strange ability to make followers of very decent and smart people.
I'm not sure exactly where I fit on the political spectrum, as I think different labels apply on different issues.

In any case, I was a Trump fan early in his campaign for 3 basic reasons:

1. His willingness to call out Middle East foreign policy foolishness
2. His focus on improving the economic plight of (for lack of a better term) the 95% (along with his speaking in favor of keeping Social Security and Medicare).
3. Addressing immigration -- my own concern here was economic, related to #2. Also, restricting immigration did not seem unreasonable to me as a national security measure.

Gradually, though, I became disenchanted: he has issued a number of (formal and informal) statements and tweets that were contradictory to the things I found appealing, which made me think that he was simply trying out different positions to get votes.

Finally, I decided that his personality is ill-suited to occupying the Executive position in the federal government. I picture him as CEO of my employer (12,000 employees)... it would never work. Hell, if he was my group leader (4 levels below CEO, over a bunch of Ph.D. chemists and engineers), there would be open revolt.

technovelist commented earlier that he was a 1-issue voter - he thought Trump was less likely than Hillary Clinton to start World War III. While that is a huge issue to me as well (and agree that Clinton would continue, if not ramp up, the policies of Bush and Obama), I would say that, based on Trump's behavior thus far toward China, Iran, and Yemen, I'm not very confident in his keeping us out of war. Not to mention that I expect he'd rally the public by telling us how beautiful it would be.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by l82start » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:46 am

lazyboy wrote:So, best case, he's a pain in the ass world class narcissist ( WCN), who lacks empathy, make others suffer rather than suffer himself, is neither well meaning nor well behaved. He doesn't any need help because others are made to suffer so he feels OK and being this way is not disordered. Wunderbar.
i agree he is a narcissist and probably a big one, i suspect some high level narcissism is so common among politicians that it is almost redundant to say narcissistic politician... does he have or is he capable of empathy? probably not with the people he gets into bulling arguments with.. empathy for the average American and the little guy i suspect he does, time will tell.. he is definitely not well behaved but i suspect he is probably is well meaning , the problem with politics is well meaning people "paving the road" with their good intentions, i would prefer philosophical understanding over well meaning any day..

i am not a trump supporter (he got my reluctant vote because like many i saw Hillary as a crook and a national disaster) at the moment i have a curious combination of giving the benefit of the doubt (its to soon to declare him a failure or a bad president) and a terminal skeptic, the libertarian anarchist in me has no faith in any government employee having my best interests at heart..
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by technovelist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:20 am

Desert wrote:
That helps me see where you're coming from, Tech. Unfortunately, my view is that Trump is statist on precisely the wrong issues (muslim ban, wall, etc.) and anti-regulatory on the exact few issues where we NEED regulation (banking). Having banks involved in investing has directly led to the largest two financial crises in our country (great depression and 2008). I am acutely focused on banking regulation. There was great wisdom in the idea of separating banking and market speculation.
What we need is sound banking. Not that we are going to get that from Trump, but we wouldn't have gotten it from anyone else either, so this is not a net negative for Trump.
Desert wrote: But beyond the policy details, surely you can see that Trump's administration is just ... well, ridiculous and dangerous. I challenge you to tune out all media and simply read Trump's tweets. He is a very sick man.
You are responding exactly in the way that he wants you to, so as to continue to reduce the appeal of his opponents to the middle of the country. The more hysterical the response, the bigger the turn-off to anyone who isn't already committed to opposing him.

As for his being sick, I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about. He is quite healthy in an emotional and mental sense, although I wish he would stop eating so much junk food. Anyone who wasn't healthy in those senses wouldn't have survived a year of constant attacks by the lamestream media.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by technovelist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:22 am

l82start wrote:interesting that the top two stories that popped up googling narcissistic personality disorder were about the psychiatrist who wrote the definition (and who has nothing good to say about trump...)


"Frances countered, “Most amateur diagnosticians have mislabeled President Trump with the diagnosis of narcissistic
personality disorder. I wrote the criteria that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn’t meet them. He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder.”

He is no Trump booster, however, saying, “Mr. Trump causes severe distress rather than experiencing it and has been richly rewarded, rather than punished, for his grandiosity, self-absorption and lack of empathy. It is a stigmatizing insult to the mentally ill (who are mostly well behaved and well meaning) to be lumped with Mr. Trump (who is neither).”
{Frances was chairman of the group that wrote the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV, or psychiatry's "bible,"}
And that is a large part of his appeal to anyone who is sick and tired (figuratively) of the total dominance of "progressivism" in this country. Liberal tears are a delicious treat for us!
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by technovelist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:25 am

l82start wrote:
lazyboy wrote:So, best case, he's a pain in the ass world class narcissist ( WCN), who lacks empathy, make others suffer rather than suffer himself, is neither well meaning nor well behaved. He doesn't any need help because others are made to suffer so he feels OK and being this way is not disordered. Wunderbar.
i agree he is a narcissist and probably a big one, i suspect some high level narcissism is so common among politicians that it is almost redundant to say narcissistic politician... does he have or is he capable of empathy? probably not with the people he gets into bulling arguments with.. empathy for the average American and the little guy i suspect he does, time will tell.. he is definitely not well behaved but i suspect he is probably is well meaning , the problem with politics is well meaning people "paving the road" with their good intentions, i would prefer philosophical understanding over well meaning any day..

i am not a trump supporter (he got my reluctant vote because like many i saw Hillary as a crook and a national disaster) at the moment i have a curious combination of giving the benefit of the doubt (its to soon to declare him a failure or a bad president) and a terminal skeptic, the libertarian anarchist in me has no faith in any government employee having my best interests at heart..
All anyone can reasonably ask is to wait and see what happens. It is way too soon to judge his Presidency.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by ochotona » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:11 am

technovelist wrote:Liberal tears are a delicious treat for us!
This gets to the bone of what I'm really disturbed more by Trump supporters than by Trump himself.

If significant parts of the populace, either right or left, are mobilized in the streets to air their grievances, that's not a good thing! Right or left tears are not a treat for anyone! They are a sign of severe illness in the body politic. Anyone who thinks they are "treats" suffers from the disease of putting party and faction ahead of God and Country.

Speaking of God, here are two of Jesus' signature lessons:

And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?"

What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" He answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ " "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live."

The passage in the book of Luke then continues with Jesus answering the question, "Who is my neighbor?", by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, indicating that "your neighbor" is anyone in need. This extends to all, including those who are generally considered hostile.


Also, nothing characterizes a bad sport so much as gloating over a victory. We have a large number of adult bad sports in this country, and it shows how immature we've gotten as a culture. Oh but hey, I'm just an old fart, what do I know.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by l82start » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:35 am

there are always fringe elements airing their grievances and rejoicing over their opponents defeats.. not anything new there as far as i can see, rioting is a bit more prevalent in the post community activist presidential era, but not anywhere near a critical mass ... what i find interesting is that the true colors of those on the left (more so than the right right now) are showing through so clearly, the peace and love and compassion party has had its thin veneer striped away and the anger violence and vitriol have shown through, they now wear their irrationality openly when before they kept it hidden under layers of intellectualism..
that is not to say that the far right is any better than the far left but part of the pendulum swing is the exposure of the madness, and that is hard not to applaud...
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:36 am

ochotona wrote:
technovelist wrote:Liberal tears are a delicious treat for us!
This gets to the bone of what I'm really disturbed more by Trump supporters than by Trump himself.

If significant parts of the populace, either right or left, are mobilized in the streets to air their grievances, that's not a good thing! Right or left tears are not a treat for anyone! They are a sign of severe illness in the body politic. Anyone who thinks they are "treats" suffers from the disease of putting party and faction ahead of God and Country.
Yes. Yes. Yes.

It's so tempting. I am constantly tempted myself, and another part of Trump's appeal was the public legitimization of this behavior. He and his movement encourages hatred of the left and its institutions.

The problem is that there really is a lot to hate. They're arrogant, sanctimonious, and belittling. They see things that are important as useless or even harmful. They don't understand how everything they love is built on the backs of people they disdain.They're constantly whining about stupid shit that doesn't matter. I grew up in a deep far left community and threw off the indoctrination years ago, but it still drives me crazy to see.

But you have to resist the urge to hate them! That's the dark side. You'll turn into Darth Vader, who, despite being cool on screen, is an evil murderous asshole. That's not who you want to be, I hope. Darth Vader is the bad guy.

Do you like Mormon society? If you aren't a Mormon, have you joined it? No? Why not? There are some things you would miss? Everything you would miss is provided by liberals. Mormon society is what you get when you make a modern technical society without any liberalism in it at all. It works. It's strong. It's a pleasant place to raise children. But it's boring and stifling and unattractive and weak beyond its own boundaries. If you don't want all of American society to have those characteristics, then stop hating liberals and start appreciating their contributions.

I'm serious. This is a huge problem. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
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Re: Lack of outrage

Post by technovelist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:59 am

ochotona wrote:
technovelist wrote:Liberal tears are a delicious treat for us!
This gets to the bone of what I'm really disturbed more by Trump supporters than by Trump himself.

If significant parts of the populace, either right or left, are mobilized in the streets to air their grievances, that's not a good thing! Right or left tears are not a treat for anyone! They are a sign of severe illness in the body politic. Anyone who thinks they are "treats" suffers from the disease of putting party and faction ahead of God and Country.
Laughing at people who are attempting to paint everyone who disagrees with them as LITERALLY HITLER!!! is putting Country ahead of party and faction.

Hope that helps.
ochotona wrote: Speaking of God, here are two of Jesus' signature lessons:

And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?"

What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" He answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ " "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live."

The passage in the book of Luke then continues with Jesus answering the question, "Who is my neighbor?", by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, indicating that "your neighbor" is anyone in need. This extends to all, including those who are generally considered hostile.
As soon as I convert to Christianity, I'll agree with that. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, though.
ochotona wrote: Also, nothing characterizes a bad sport so much as gloating over a victory. We have a large number of adult bad sports in this country, and it shows how immature we've gotten as a culture. Oh but hey, I'm just an old fart, what do I know.
It is partly because the left was pre-gloating over the anointing of their savior, Saint Hillary, that their loss is so delightful. A lot of the rest is because they have no interest in accepting their defeat but are doubling down on all the things that caused it.

I may get tired of winning, but that hasn't happened yet!
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