Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:55 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm
I've been a super saver / super frugal all my life that making this solar investment is not going to affect my lifestyle in any way.
If it's not going to make your life better why go through the hassle?
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:13 pm

joypog wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:55 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm

I've been a super saver / super frugal all my life that making this solar investment is not going to affect my lifestyle in any way.

If it's not going to make your life better why go through the hassle?


My point in saying that was that making the investment was not going to cause me to have to sacrifice anything. Therefore no downside in that direction.

The upside is that I'll no longer be subject to the increases in electricity rates.

My DNA is to be a saver and frugal and a major reason why I am where I am financially. That means I'm congenitally going to do things that will save me money or be a better investment (taking the reward / risk into account).
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:46 pm

joypog wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:55 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm
I've been a super saver / super frugal all my life that making this solar investment is not going to affect my lifestyle in any way.
If it's not going to make your life better why go through the hassle?
This is a good question to ask.

On its own, owning a solar PV array doesn't make your life better, except maybe for adding some warm fuzzies from slightly decreasing the demand for fossil fuels, but the benefit of that will have to be determined by you personally. What solar does for your life is allow you to avoid certain (possibly all) costs related to buying electricity, and eventually even natural gas or gasoline/diesel. It's a financial thing.

My personal calculation was fairly simple:

1. How much money do I have to invest to pay my average monthly electricity, natural gas, and gasoline bills forever?
2. How much money does it cost to convert my house to all-electric appliances, buy an electric car, and power them all 100% from a solar PV array?

If #1 is a higher number, then it makes financial sense to pursue the plan in #2. For me, it was, so I did it. And I have no regrets. This was my calculation; your may differ. But it's what made sense for me.

He said that metal would triple the cost.
Frankly, that's ridiculous.

I've learned that contractors never tell you directly that they don't want to do a job. Instead they quote you a crazy price or disparage the product you want installed. As an example, when I was shopping around for heat pumps, I had a bunch of people quote me $15k or tell me it would never work, that heat pumps stop operating properly below 40F, and other poppycock. I ended up going with a guy who quoted me a more reasonable price of $9k and thought it was a good plan. And lo and behold, the heat pumps his crew installed have been working fine for both cooling and heating over the last 4 years.

Your roofer is telling you in contractor language that he doesn't want to put a metal roof on your house, likely because he doesn't have the skills and/or tools to do so. Or maybe he just doesn't like metal roofs. And this is fine. If you want a metal roof, you should find someone who likes metal roofs, can show you a portfolio of quality metal roofing jobs, and quotes you a price that's within roughly 150% the average price of a shingle job. These guys exist, you just have to find them. Roofing with metal is a different skill from installing shingles.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by dualstow » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:47 pm

Key West, FL is largely metal roofs. Someone’s putting them up. O0
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:46 pm

joypog wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:55 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm

I've been a super saver / super frugal all my life that making this solar investment is not going to affect my lifestyle in any way.

If it's not going to make your life better why go through the hassle?


This is a good question to ask.

On its own, owning a solar PV array doesn't make your life better, except maybe for adding some warm fuzzies from slightly decreasing the demand for fossil fuels, but the benefit of that will have to be determined by you personally. What solar does for your life is allow you to avoid certain (possibly all) costs related to buying electricity, and eventually even natural gas or gasoline/diesel. It's a financial thing.

My personal calculation was fairly simple:

1. How much money do I have to invest to pay my average monthly electricity, natural gas, and gasoline bills forever?
2. How much money does it cost to convert my house to all-electric appliances, buy an electric car, and power them all 100% from a solar PV array?

If #1 is a higher number, then it makes financial sense to pursue the plan in #2. For me, it was, so I did it. And I have no regrets. This was my calculation; your may differ. But it's what made sense for me.


He said that metal would triple the cost.


Frankly, that's ridiculous.

I've learned that contractors never tell you directly that they don't want to do a job. Instead they quote you a crazy price or disparage the product you want installed. As an example, when I was shopping around for heat pumps, I had a bunch of people quote me $15k or tell me it would never work, that heat pumps stop operating properly below 40F, and other poppycock. I ended up going with a guy who quoted me a more reasonable price of $9k and thought it was a good plan. And lo and behold, the heat pumps his crew installed have been working fine for both cooling and heating over the last 4 years.

Your roofer is telling you in contractor language that he doesn't want to put a metal roof on your house, likely because he doesn't have the skills and/or tools to do so. Or maybe he just doesn't like metal roofs. And this is fine. If you want a metal roof, you should find someone who likes metal roofs, can show you a portfolio of quality metal roofing jobs, and quotes you a price that's within roughly 150% the average price of a shingle job. These guys exist, you just have to find them. Roofing with metal is a different skill from installing shingles.


1. My reasons for going solar. Though I have a good environmental lifestyle - never owned a clothes dryer or dishwasher and relentlessly recycle as much as I can - I am NOT pursuing solar for environmental reasons. It is strictly a financial decision. I have a significant amount of money invested in Vanguard's short-term Treasury Fund. I'm looking that over the long-term this will provide a much higher return than those short-term Treasuries with not that much more risk. Plus, this morning I realized it fit into my Owner Mentality wherein I always make the choice to own rather than paying a monthly fee.

2. As stated in the Tax Act Topic, I should no longer have to worry about how the tax credit will be handled.

3. In talking to one vendor this afternoon he allayed my concerns that the electric utility would force me to pay for any transformer upgrades, telling me the chances of that were quite tiny. However, he did say it was possible that I might be in the 5% that needed to upgrade my electrical box from 100 AMP to 200 AMP. No other vendor has raised that as an issue, including the ones who have been here to see it.

4. I agree / disagree with you regarding this particular roofer.

He is only 30 years old and has owned the business for only a year. But he's been in the business for 14 years. He said he had the option to buy the business he'd been working for but that would have required him to support all the business's prior metal roof installations. Since he had little experience with metal roofs that is not something he wanted to do, which led him to creating his own business.

I met with him once in person and had an extended discussion with him. He was never in sales mode with me. Came across as quite creditable.

In any event would you not agree that with me being 71 years old I should be set for life with him installing 35, 40 year asphalt shingles? If so, why go to the added expense of metal roofing which will last even longer than I am alive? That could well be the option for someone your age. But it does not seem cost effective for someone like me.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:33 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm
In any event would you not agree that with me being 71 years old I should be set for life with him installing 35, 40 year asphalt shingles? If so, why go to the added expense of metal roofing which will last even longer than I am alive? That could well be the option for someone your age. But it does not seem cost effective for someone like me.
I would call the solar panel manufacturer and ask them why they recommend a metal roof instead of 35-40 year shingles. They should have a good explanation why.

Very well could be that shingles aren't meant to support stuff on top and all that extra stuff will wear down the life of the shingles much faster than when they are loaded. Now they are getting beat up with all the slight micro-aggressions (thermal movement, moisture buildup, wind pressures, etc) that they aren't designed for.

Please also double check the warranty of the shingles with the manufacturer, make sure you aren't voiding the warranty when you put the panels up.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:41 pm

joypog wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:33 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm

In any event would you not agree that with me being 71 years old I should be set for life with him installing 35, 40 year asphalt shingles? If so, why go to the added expense of metal roofing which will last even longer than I am alive? That could well be the option for someone your age. But it does not seem cost effective for someone like me.

I would call the solar panel manufacturer and ask them why they recommend a metal roof instead of 35-40 year shingles. They should have a good explanation why.

Very well could be that shingles aren't meant to support stuff on top and all that extra stuff will wear down the life of the shingles much faster than when they are loaded. Now they are getting beat up with all the slight micro-aggressions (thermal movement, moisture buildup, wind pressures, etc) that they aren't designed for.

Please also double check the warranty of the shingles with the manufacturer, make sure you aren't voiding the warranty when you put the panels up.


The major threat to the life of asphalt shingles is the constant exposure to the sun. With solar panels on top of the shingles the panels are protecting that portion of the roof from sun damage so that those shingles will have a longer life than the shingles without solar on top of them.

While every solar vendor has stated that they don't like putting an installation on my 17 year old roof and all of them are recommending a roof replacement in the area where the solar installation will be going .... not one of them have recommended going with a metal roof.

With each roof vendor I have told them that since I'm only barely halfway in the second half of the lives of my 30 year shingles and they are all in excellent condition .... my sole reason for foregoing the last 1/3 of the life of these shingles is to match the life of the roof with the life of the solar installation.

Each of them knows that soon after they do their work a solar installation will be going on top of their new roof installation. Not one of them has expressed any concern about solar being installed on top of their new roof.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:22 pm

Oh, I misread the thread and thought the metal roof idea was coming from the either the roofing or solar manufacturers. If both of them are OK with it, then I think your theory makes sense. The tech will most likely hit the end of their useful service life before the anticipated life of the shingles...though I agree with your inclination to get long life shingles, cause it would be a major pain if they need to be replaced prematurely...so might as well ensure that won't be the case.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:27 am

joypog wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:22 pm

Oh, I misread the thread and thought the metal roof idea was coming from the either the roofing or solar manufacturers. If both of them are OK with it, then I think your theory makes sense. The tech will most likely hit the end of their useful service life before the anticipated life of the shingles...though I agree with your inclination to get long life shingles, cause it would be a major pain if they need to be replaced prematurely...so might as well ensure that won't be the case.


After 25 years of use a part of the solar installation may need to be replaced - the inverter(s).

But while the output of the solar panels degrade every year anywhere from 0.25% to 0.50% at the end of 25 years they would still be producing about 80% of what they'd been producing when originally installed. So for someone much younger than me the calculation would be to stay with the production at that rate or make the investment to both remove that installation and put up a new one.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:51 am

joypog wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:33 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm

In any event would you not agree that with me being 71 years old I should be set for life with him installing 35, 40 year asphalt shingles? If so, why go to the added expense of metal roofing which will last even longer than I am alive? That could well be the option for someone your age. But it does not seem cost effective for someone like me.

I would call the solar panel manufacturer and ask them why they recommend a metal roof instead of 35-40 year shingles. They should have a good explanation why.

Very well could be that shingles aren't meant to support stuff on top and all that extra stuff will wear down the life of the shingles much faster than when they are loaded. Now they are getting beat up with all the slight micro-aggressions (thermal movement, moisture buildup, wind pressures, etc) that they aren't designed for.

Please also double check the warranty of the shingles with the manufacturer, make sure you aren't voiding the warranty when you put the panels up.


From one of the solar installers web pages this better states what I was trying to convey:

Installing solar panels can actually extend the life of your roof, protecting your roof from sunlight, snow, and ice. A roof that is damaged or near the end of its lifetime is not ideal for solar panels, but if you are getting a new roof or roof replacement, it could be the perfect time to switch to solar.

Do Solar Panels Ruin Your Roof?
The answer is no, as long as you have them installed by a solar company with roofing experience. In fact, in this case, solar panels can actually extend the life of your roof. This is because solar panels add an extra layer of protection to your roof from the elements such as rain, wind, hail and sun. They soak up all that sunshine and convert it into clean energy you can use to power your home instead!



Installing Solar Panels on an Asphalt Shingle Roof
Shingle roofs are very common on residences, and also common with conventional solar panels. If the roof is fairly new (just a few years old), or you replace your roof with the intention of installing solar panels, your roof should last you throughout the lifetime of your new solar panels. On a solar roof shingles are a perfect style.

Asphalt shingles or a tile roof can be perfectly paired with solar panels. Roof replacement typically takes 1-3 days, though it can vary depending on the home’s size. A well-installed and maintained shingle roof lasts 20-25 years. Along with solar shingles are a great option for capitalizing solid quality and energy savings.

Get Solar Panels Installed on a Metal Roof
As with shingles, metal roofing takes only a few days to install or replace. Metal roofs are excellent for solar panels and solar products. They are highly durable, low-profile, and will likely last longer than the solar panels themselves — especially if the metal roof is newly installed.

Better yet, because metal roofs have an average 60 year lifespan your roof installation will last decades. In fact, some metal roofs have lasted over 100 years, making them an ideal long-term choice. And since a metal roof helps your home be more energy efficient by reflecting heat and cold, it’s a fantastic match!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:46 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm
4. I agree / disagree with you regarding this particular roofer.

He is only 30 years old and has owned the business for only a year. But he's been in the business for 14 years. He said he had the option to buy the business he'd been working for but that would have required him to support all the business's prior metal roof installations. Since he had little experience with metal roofs that is not something he wanted to do, which led him to creating his own business.

I met with him once in person and had an extended discussion with him. He was never in sales mode with me. Came across as quite creditable.
I knew it. I could just tell. He's the kind of roofer who simply doesn't like metal roofs.

That's fine. But it means this isn't the guy to install a metal roof for you. He may be great, decent, honest, trustworthy, the works... but he's not the right roofer if you want a metal roof.
vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm
In any event would you not agree that with me being 71 years old I should be set for life with him installing 35, 40 year asphalt shingles? If so, why go to the added expense of metal roofing which will last even longer than I am alive? That could well be the option for someone your age. But it does not seem cost effective for someone like me.
First off: "40-year shingles" is an optimistic misnomer. :)

But no matter what roof you put on your house soon, it will likely outlast you. The question is: what do you want to leave for your house's next owner?

It's up to you. Personally I have a weird thing for buildings and irrationally improve them beyond my capacity to enjoy them, because I see it as a moral issue to leave the built environment in a better state than I found it. I'm weird, I know. This is just me. It's not you. But if you have the money for the objectively superior roofing product that better matches the characteristics of the solar PV array you've decided to install... why not spring for it?

But of course, it's up to you.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:40 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:46 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm

4. I agree / disagree with you regarding this particular roofer.

He is only 30 years old and has owned the business for only a year. But he's been in the business for 14 years. He said he had the option to buy the business he'd been working for but that would have required him to support all the business's prior metal roof installations. Since he had little experience with metal roofs that is not something he wanted to do, which led him to creating his own business.

I met with him once in person and had an extended discussion with him. He was never in sales mode with me. Came across as quite creditable.


I knew it. I could just tell. He's the kind of roofer who simply doesn't like metal roofs.

That's fine. But it means this isn't the guy to install a metal roof for you. He may be great, decent, honest, trustworthy, the works... but he's not the right roofer if you want a metal roof.

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:14 pm

In any event would you not agree that with me being 71 years old I should be set for life with him installing 35, 40 year asphalt shingles? If so, why go to the added expense of metal roofing which will last even longer than I am alive? That could well be the option for someone your age. But it does not seem cost effective for someone like me.


First off: "40-year shingles" is an optimistic misnomer. :)

But no matter what roof you put on your house soon, it will likely outlast you. The question is: what do you want to leave for your house's next owner?

It's up to you. Personally I have a weird thing for buildings and irrationally improve them beyond my capacity to enjoy them, because I see it as a moral issue to leave the built environment in a better state than I found it. I'm weird, I know. This is just me. It's not you. But if you have the money for the objectively superior roofing product that better matches the characteristics of the solar PV array you've decided to install... why not spring for it?

But of course, it's up to you.


Because then it would grossly fail the investment aspect of the whole solar installation. It'd push the payback far too many years in the future which would lead me to not do it at all.

I view my house as being for my personal, idiosyncratic needs. The next owner will have his or her own ideas of how he / she wants to transform my house.

I'm sure that one of the first things this person would do would be to remove all the shelving that occupies just about every wall in my house, including the garage and basement. But, maybe not, if a similar type person to me ends up in this house.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:51 am

All house projects are investments of some sort, it just depends on how you look at them.

Your new driveway wasn't a financial investment, right? You did it for the use value (old driveway was deteriorating) and potential value maintenance (not doing the project would lead to lower resale value).

A roof is similar. Your house needs a roof. If it has a better roof, it'll cause you fewer problems, last longer, increase the house's resale value, and make the house more desirable overall. Like a driveway, a roof is infrastructure; it's not the kind of thing that the average buyer is opinionated about.

The next owner may not care for your house's built-in bookshelves, or the paint color on the walls, or the curtains, but I can 99.9% guarantee you that the next owner will not care about the roof and driveway, except for that they're in reasonable condition so they don't need to be replaced soon. If the roof is of higher quality, it will last longer and be more likely to offer the buyer better value, which in turn will increase the resale value of the house and the overall infrastructural quality of the house itself.

But again, this is just how I look at things. :) It sounds like you've already made up your mind to get new shingles, so go for it and be happy!
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:00 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:51 am

All house projects are investments of some sort, it just depends on how you look at them.

Your new driveway wasn't a financial investment, right? You did it for the use value (old driveway was deteriorating) and potential value maintenance (not doing the project would lead to lower resale value).

A roof is similar. Your house needs a roof. If it has a better roof, it'll cause you fewer problems, last longer, increase the house's resale value, and make the house more desirable overall. Like a driveway, a roof is infrastructure; it's not the kind of thing that the average buyer is opinionated about.

The next owner may not care for your house's built-in bookshelves, or the paint color on the walls, or the curtains, but I can 99.9% guarantee you that the next owner will not care about the roof and driveway, except for that they're in reasonable condition so they don't need to be replaced soon. If the roof is of higher quality, it will last longer and be more likely to offer the buyer better value, which in turn will increase the resale value of the house and the overall infrastructural quality of the house itself.

But again, this is just how I look at things. :) It sounds like you've already made up your mind to get new shingles, so go for it and be happy!


To further explain the differences in our perspectives....My plans are do die in this house, i.e., never live anywhere else so its resale value is irrelevant to me. What I chose gives no consideration to how the house's resale value may be affected.

When I was looking at this house over 40 years ago in the winter the realtor said that because of the snow on the driveway you cannot tell now but the driveway is going. For 40 years I did nothing to it and it's practically gone. In just the recent last few years I finally realized I could do things like do a new driveway and its cost was not going to affect my lifestyle in any way. Doing it, though, would allay my fears of getting my car stuck in the mud in the spring during mud season.

And, even if I were concerned with resale value, I've always looked at it as similar to the value of buying a new car -- it depreciates quickly in that you never get back in resale value an amount equal to what you spent on the improvement. So I do the improvements when they are either necessary for functional maintenance or they improve my enjoyment of living in my house.

In the case of solar .... it IS a financial investment. If I make the investment and I live long enough it will offer a greater financial return than having the money sitting in short-term Treasuries for the same period of time. Going solar has a year-by-year financial savings.

Improving the driveway or the roof saves me nothing on any kinds of recurring bills, like solar will on my recurring electric bills.

My mind is made up to get new shingles IF I decide to go solar. Initially I had another curveball thrown at me yesterday / today.

One solar vendor told me that my 100 amp service might not be adequate and that I may need to go to 200 amp service to handle the needs for a solar system.

Now for my first 30 years living here I survived fine on a 60 amp service that was half circuit breakers and half glass fuses. I upgraded to a full circuit breaker 100 amp 10 years ago because I had thoughts of running more circuits to various rooms (something I still have not done).

I was shocked today to find out that upgrading from 100 amp service to 200 amp service would cost $4,000! Now this is supposed to be eligible for the 30% ITC so the net cost would be $2,800. But again, just like doing a premature new roof, I'd have to view this as yet another additional cost of going solar. Which would have the effect of adding two more years to the amount of payback years. Making it overall closer and closer to a marginal investment.

Here is the email that the solar vendor sent to his engineer after I'd sent him pictures of my circuit box plus the meter on my house.

"Here are the second set of pics. This guy is difficult. He wants to know all potential costs before moving forward."

I am considered "difficult" because I want to know ALL substantial potential costs so that I can make an informed decision that is strictly financially based?

The engineer did respond with this: " I don't see any evidence of rust or fraying on the entrance cable. We should not need to change the panel unless the customer wants to upgrade from a 100A to a 200A.

We can always "Line-side Tap" for panels which we cannot put a "back-fed breaker" directly into the breaker."

This has been an extremely enlightening adventure getting all this different information from various vendors on my way to deciding whether or not I will go solar.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:18 pm

I think the vendors are used to handwaving in front of semi-innumerate homeowners that just go "okay, whatever lowers my monthly bills."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Dieter » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:23 pm

Vnatale — thanks for sharing your journey into solar land
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:24 pm

joypog wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:18 pm

I think the vendors are used to handwaving in front of semi-innumerate homeowners that just go "okay, whatever lowers my monthly bills."


Thanks. I like to immerse myself in all the details so there are no surprises or regrets after I finally make the decision. I've seen too many people quickly make the decision then not like the surprises with the attendant regrets.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:24 pm

https://www.wired.com/story/after-going ... abundance/

CLIVE THOMPSONIDEASJUL 29, 2022 8:00 AM
After Going Solar, I Felt the Bliss of Sudden Abundance
My rooftop panels showed me that a world powered by renewables would be an overflowing horn of plenty, with fast, sporty cars and comfy homes.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:30 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:24 pm
joypog wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:18 pm
I think the vendors are used to handwaving in front of semi-innumerate homeowners that just go "okay, whatever lowers my monthly bills."
Thanks. I like to immerse myself in all the details so there are no surprises or regrets after I finally make the decision. I've seen too many people quickly make the decision then not like the surprises with the attendant regrets.
Oh for sure. If you haven't noticed, I have much disdain for sales reps in the architectural industry, the promise the moon, especially if you aren't paying attention. You are absolutely doing the right thing making them earn the sale.

As a one-off customer, odds are high that the level of service will drop considerably as soon as you sign the dotted line and that there will be some teeth pulling to get the job done right. I learned that the hard way with my own house remodel and the subcontractors I worked with - they all talk a big game until the contracts are signed.

As such, you really need to make sure the end goal is one absolutely worth pursuing.
1/n weirdo. US-TSM, US-SCV, Intl-SCV, LTT, STT, GLD (+ a little in MF)
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:30 pm

Upgrading to 200 amp service is something you would want to do if you plan to upgrade the rest of your gas appliances to electric in the future. An electric oven uses a 50 amp breaker, an electric water heater is 30, and so on. They add up, and the panel is sized for everything being on at once.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:53 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:30 pm

Upgrading to 200 amp service is something you would want to do if you plan to upgrade the rest of your gas appliances to electric in the future. An electric oven uses a 50 amp breaker, an electric water heater is 30, and so on. They add up, and the panel is sized for everything being on at once.


Being the only person living in this house (aside from having someone living with me temporarily for the last month and continuing to be here on an indefinite basis).... I live a decidedly atypical American life.

As I stated, I lived fine on a 60 amp service for 30 years.

My electric use?

Yes, my 80 gallon hot water heater is on a 30 amp circuit. That is a given and will not change. I think I've disclosed here at some point that a year and one half ago I had installed in my circuit breaker box something that allows me to monitor my electricity on both an instanteous and historical basis for every circuit. I can see right now what I'm using on each circuit and how much I've use per second, minute, hour, day, week, month. Last time I checked it showed that that hot water heater (prior to starting to use a dehumidifier in May) was responsible for 40% of my electricity consumption a month.

I have an electric stove but do not have it plugged in because I never use it. I "cook" in a microwave. And, I cannot even remember the last time I ever cooked anything in it since I've become a dedicated raw vegetable eater.

I have never had a clothes dryer and do not intend to ever get one. Same for a dishwasher.

So aside from my hot water heater what else in my house is a big electricity consumer? That dehumidifier irks me to no end because even though I'm not running it all day it still consumers 5 kWh per day or 150 a month, increasing my electricity consumption by 30%. That actually gave me inspiration to go solar.

In the winter I will run a 1,000 watt space heater in this room for many hours. Each hour would be 1 kWh and ten hours would be 10 kWh.

Though my electric stove is 200V I do not believe it is on a 50 amp circuit breaker. It cannot be given that I only used to have a total of a 60 amp service. I will check on this and get back to you.

I do have an electric refrigerator and when I plugged something into it to monitor its electricity consumption, I was shocked to see how little it consumed. And, that was when I was monitoring a 25+ year refrigerator. Last year I finally replaced it and I know it consumes far less electricity than the prior 30 year old one.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:00 am

Atypical indeed! Very impressive. I used to aspire to that level of power frugality but had to throw in the towel after my kids were born. Our consumption is still very much below average, but not like what you're doing!

With such a low level of consumption, I'm surprised that you're shopping for a 6-ish kW array. https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php shows me that a 6 kW PV array in a random part of MA that I plugged in can be expected to produce about 8,000 kWh per year. That's more than your annual consumption by quite a bit, no?
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:16 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:00 am

Atypical indeed! Very impressive. I used to aspire to that level of power frugality but had to throw in the towel after my kids were born. Our consumption is still very much below average, but not like what you're doing!

With such a low level of consumption, I'm surprised that you're shopping for a 6-ish kW array. https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php shows me that a 6 kW PV array in a random part of MA that I plugged in can be expected to produce about 8,000 kWh per year. That's more than your annual consumption by quite a bit, no?


Don't be that impressed. There is a lot you can do as a single person when it is only your desires that need to be met. The second you add a second person with their own (read: different) needs / desires it becomes far more difficult to do what I do. Being the only person in the house I am not at all interested in keeping the whole house at livable (proper heating or cooling) conditions. I can confine any heating or cooling to strictly the space I am occupying.

I'm currently using about 5,400 kWh per year. Adding in five months of that dehumidifier adds another 750, putting me about 6,000 (for rounding purposes).

My house orientation is exactly opposite optimal. Rather than having the more desirable north / south roofs, I have east / west roofs. The west is slightly more tilted toward the south than the east but I'm going with the east because it has almost no shading while the west has some.

Therefore a 6.5 kW system ends up providing me only about 6,000 kWh. Does all the above make sense to you?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Jack Jones » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:03 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:46 am
I knew it. I could just tell. He's the kind of roofer who simply doesn't like metal roofs.

That's fine. But it means this isn't the guy to install a metal roof for you. He may be great, decent, honest, trustworthy, the works... but he's not the right roofer if you want a metal roof.
I already have a metal roof, but it required Tesla to send a contractor out here to tell me they don't install onto my type of roof. That kind of discouraged me from the whole thing. Is that just some lame Tesla policy and I should find a better solar contractor?

I actually did have another solar contractor out, more local. But she did the assessment and I never heard from her. She was doing the talking down about my choices thing you were talking about earlier, so maybe she just didn't want me as a customer.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:47 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:03 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:46 am

I knew it. I could just tell. He's the kind of roofer who simply doesn't like metal roofs.

That's fine. But it means this isn't the guy to install a metal roof for you. He may be great, decent, honest, trustworthy, the works... but he's not the right roofer if you want a metal roof.


I already have a metal roof, but it required Tesla to send a contractor out here to tell me they don't install onto my type of roof. That kind of discouraged me from the whole thing. Is that just some lame Tesla policy and I should find a better solar contractor?

I actually did have another solar contractor out, more local. But she did the assessment and I never heard from her. She was doing the talking down about my choices thing you were talking about earlier, so maybe she just didn't want me as a customer.


Go here and you will get lots of motivated solar contractors giving you quotes. Or you can use their list of local contractors for you to contact them directly.

There is also lots of great information regarding solar at the web site. I've been through it extensively and taking notes from it.

https://www.energysage.com/
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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