Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:10 pm

stuper1 wrote:I'm just tired of the media shoving something down our throats as if it were an inarguable fact, when in fact it is anything but. I'm talking about human-caused global warming. I'm sure the planet is warming. What is causing the warming is another question, which I don't think anyone knows the answer to. I work with computer models, so I know that they can be very unreliable and can be made to give any answer that you want.

Anything that all of the media agree upon is highly suspicious to me. Like when they were trying to shove down our throats that Trump is a loser. Well of course he is, but Clinton is a bigger loser, which they conveniently left out, or actually never realized living in their bubble.
I get it, I really do. Sanctimonious liberals and their news media allies have been pushing dogmatic pro-government crap for ages. But this is what I'm talking about: you really need to separate the message from the messenger. Or the message from the truth itself! Again, forget about climate change. Pretend you never heard of it. Pretend nobody ever heard of it. In this alternate universe where nobody believes that human emissions of carbon dioxide are warming the planet, do renewable sources of energy still make practical and financial sense today? It seems to me that the answer is "yes."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:25 pm

Agreed also, and I know you get it, PS, it's just that the cartoon you posted seems to me to sort of lean in the opposite direction just a little, providing some cover for the smug do-gooders who really have no idea what they are talking about. I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. If alternate energy makes sense, then it should be adopted and presumably will be adopted if all externalities for all options are properly accounted for. I for one hate fueling up my car, smelling petroleum fumes and knowing that my family and I are inhaling benzene and other known carcinogens.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:44 pm

I sense that we are about to have a climate change thread. :)

Every several years there is some catastrophic prediction. Global cooling. Peak oil. Overpopulation. Drug resistant bacteria. Global warming. Based on past experience, I refuse to get worked up by the current ones. The problems get solved. Often, they never develop. Typically without the benefit of state action.

I'm not saying it's not happening or not coming. I'm saying I'm not getting worked up over the possibilities. I bet in another 10-20 years it turns out to be another peak oil.

(BTW I love solar technology. What's not to like? )
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:07 pm

I Shrugged wrote: (BTW I love solar technology. What's not to like? )
Oh my gosh! What's not to like? I MAY have heard on (insert favorite [fake] news source) that the shade underneath the solar collectors MAY cause cumulative micro-local cooling with POSSIBLE devastating impact and the reflectivity of the solar collector MAY cause alien beings to notice our fair planet with all the subsequent POTENTIAL trauma related to gigantic robotic insects looking for solar panel components to munch while invading OUR planet and consuming the solar panels. Run, the end is near! Run! Hide. Revert to life in the first century; Nero the hero of a warmer Rome. ;)
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:19 pm

Desert wrote:Agreed, this is a development that transcends politics. It's worth celebrating regardless of political persuasion. It was driven by technological advances. The only folks who can legitimately claim credit for this are the hard-working, under appreciated engineers and scientists.
Ditto. Engineers and scientists and welders and machinists and construction workers and plumbers and electricians and farmers and ranchers and ....... rule (I added those who do not depend on hand-outs to support themselves and their families and who actually produce something of value). The rest of you are nothing but a bunch of deplorables https://themusic.today/release/reed-bar ... le/8254547 . Full disclosure - I am an engineer. ;D
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:06 pm

I Shrugged wrote:I sense that we are about to have a climate change thread. :)
I am very deliberately trying not to! :) It's a bitter issue and nobody on either side will ever be convinced out of their view. So it's totally pointless to debate. I don't care anymore. That's why I'm trying to focus on the qualities of renewable energy that have nothing to do with climate change/"climate change"--like how it's cheaper, improves local self-sufficiency and air quality, disentangles us from geopolitically thorny petroleum politics, etc.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by WiseOne » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:03 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
I Shrugged wrote:I sense that we are about to have a climate change thread. :)
I am very deliberately trying not to! :) It's a bitter issue and nobody on either side will ever be convinced out of their view. So it's totally pointless to debate. I don't care anymore. That's why I'm trying to focus on the qualities of renewable energy that have nothing to do with climate change/"climate change"--like how it's cheaper, improves local self-sufficiency and air quality, disentangles us from geopolitically thorny petroleum politics, etc.
Hear, hear.

Improved air quality and a layer of protection from widespread grid outages are reasons enough to pursue local wind and solar installations. Extra benefit if costs are lower.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by doodle » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:36 am

stuper1 wrote:Agreed also, and I know you get it, PS, it's just that the cartoon you posted seems to me to sort of lean in the opposite direction just a little, providing some cover for the smug do-gooders who really have no idea what they are talking about. I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. If alternate energy makes sense, then it should be adopted and presumably will be adopted if all externalities for all options are properly accounted for. I for one hate fueling up my car, smelling petroleum fumes and knowing that my family and I are inhaling benzene and other known carcinogens.
How does one decide as a society when something "makes sense"? Does the financial calculation on this change when your child has smog induced asthma or can't go outside and play because the air is so thick with poison that they can't breathe?

What gets my goat regarding this issue is that conservatives for decades have been ignoring all the costly negative externalities related to human and environmental health generated by fossil fuels when making their cost effectiveness calculations and doing everything they can to hamstring investment in future energy industries that have the potential to greatly improve life on this earth. I have more than a little resentment towards this political faction because of this.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:22 am

Simonjester wrote:i am curious how wind and solar are going to do all the heavy lifting that the economy moves on, or if that is even accounted for in the above graphs? just about every piece of big equipment from semi trucks, trains, planes, ships and the construction machinery that builds infrastructure are all diesel powered... how are those things going to be done with wind and solar?
This is just talking about electricity generation. Transportation is another project entirely, and a more challenging one due to he limitations in battery technology. Aviation in particular is probably going to remain fossil-fueled for for foreseeable future.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:26 am

doodle wrote:How does one decide as a society when something "makes sense"? Does the financial calculation on this change when your child has smog induced asthma or can't go outside and play because the air is so thick with poison that they can't breathe?

What gets my goat regarding this issue is that conservatives for decades have been ignoring all the costly negative externalities related to human and environmental health generated by fossil fuels when making their cost effectiveness calculations and doing everything they can to hamstring investment in future energy industries that have the potential to greatly improve life on this earth. I have more than a little resentment towards this political faction because of this.
I'm going to repeat myself: focus on the message, not the messenger. Couples therapists will tell you that bringing up past harms is a surefire way to derail a conversation and erase any agreement you've managed to achieve. In politics it's largely the same. Forget how in the past your political opponents have irritated you and worked against your conception of a better world. Focus on the points of agreement or that better world will never actually come to pass, and it'll be as much your fault as theirs.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by dragoncar » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:24 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
I Shrugged wrote:I sense that we are about to have a climate change thread. :)
Improved air quality and a layer of protection from widespread grid outages are reasons enough to pursue local wind and solar installations. Extra benefit if costs are lower.

Uh, air quality and grid outages are just an invention of the liberal media
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:29 pm

If you bemoan the poor state of political discourse nowadays but can't resist making bitter, snarky comments about your political opponents and their follies, foibles, and failures, understand that you are part of the problem. Be the change you want to see in the world.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by PeteKoziar » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:33 am

Simonjester wrote:i am curious how wind and solar are going to do all the heavy lifting that the economy moves on, or if that is even accounted for in the above graphs? just about every piece of big equipment from semi trucks, trains, planes, ships and the construction machinery that builds infrastructure are all diesel powered... how are those things going to be done with wind and solar?
Trains can already be powered by electricity, so they're not as big a problem.

Hydrogen isn't a fuel source as much as a storage medium, with a higher energy density than current batteries. One option is to use electricity to generate hydrogen, then use the hydrogen to power the big equipment.

- Pete
Simonjester wrote: passenger trains run on electric, is electric used anywhere for heavy transport trains? i am trying to recall if i have ever seen one and i cant think any..

edit to add (outside of short track lines in heavy industry like mining to get from one building/complex to the next)
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by dualstow » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Desert wrote: I love IC engines, I have to admit.
That's internal combustion, not integrated circuit, right? O0 I was listening to that "audio ecologist" guy on the radio last month, the guy who records the sounds of nature around the world before they vanish. He admitted he loves the sounds of conventional trains. Hempton, I think his name is.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by dualstow » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:54 pm

First name's Gordon. You'll find him.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:00 pm

Desert wrote:
dualstow wrote:
Desert wrote: I love IC engines, I have to admit.
That's internal combustion, not integrated circuit, right? O0 I was listening to that "audio ecologist" guy on the radio last month, the guy who records the sounds of nature around the world before they vanish. He admitted he loves the sounds of conventional trains. Hempton, I think his name is.
:) Yeah, internal combustion. I have a special affection for 2 stroke gasoline engines and 4 stroke diesels. I haven't heard of the audio ecologist guy ... I'll look him up, sounds interesting.
In my book, nothing can compare to the sound of a 1950s era coal fired steam locomotive hauling a long string of freight or coal up a slight grade and blowing the whistle before the small country road crossings. I can hear that huffing and chuffing and whistle in my head as plain as when I heard it as a child. Here is some "pre-computers" instruction on how people managed a relatively efficient (for the time) process with economics as the objective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JaLw3u3-c
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:54 pm

Old steam trains are amazing to me. People built those things with hand tools and no electricity. Some of the finest pieces of pre-electric technology that have ever existed, IMHO.

There's actually no reason we couldn't keep doing it. With our modern understanding of thermodynamics and materials science, I'm sure we could design super high efficiency engines that barely emit any smoke at all. And of course wood is a carbon-neutral fuel! ;D If my friends on the left are correct and Donald Trump drives the USA into another dark age, I expect we could revive steam train technology very quickly, at least. ;)
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:13 pm

Desert wrote:This is the first bike that completely scared the crap out of me, as a teenager. This exact model. I didn't own it, it was my uncle's bike. It was hard to keep the front end down when it hit the powerband. This is a 2-stroke, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebvt7JNXHwU
Cool! Thinking of my years gone by, did you/your uncle refer to the bike as a rice burner or a crotch rocket? ;D
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:58 am

I'll admit I've never understood the appeal of those things. They're ear-splittingly noisy, incredibly dangerous, and super-polluting; a true hazard to life, limb, and the public peace.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:53 am

Pointedstick wrote:I'll admit I've never understood the appeal of those things. They're ear-splittingly noisy, incredibly dangerous, and super-polluting; a true hazard to life, limb, and the public peace.
Perhaps this will help get your mind around the "crotch rocket" appeal. O0 Think Chuck Yeager in that first fastest man alive flight, cage fighting, Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay climbing Mt. Everest in 1953, Die Hard movies, Buzz Aldrin, roller coaster junkies, even the first President Bush skydiving.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:15 pm

Simonjester wrote:how do you get super polluting from a streetbike? i thought the mpg was in the hybrid car or better range...
By watching the linked video and looking at all the crap coming out of the tailpipe! I can't imagine those things had catalytic converters or any of the modern emissions control devices that have helped cities not smell like gas stations.
Simonjester wrote: vintage dirt bikes definitely spewed some fumes, but then there aren't enough them to pollute a city or many of them being ridden in a city for that matter... what with it being a dirt bike / motocross race bike... ;D

since i grew up around bikes like that, i still have fond memories of the smell of two stroke engines burning pre mix gas..... smells like fun to me...

i think i may have lost the thread a bit... for some reason i thought we were talking about street bikes, the terms crotch rocket and rice burner are descriptions of street bikes, i have never heard them used for a dirtbike..

IE - rice burner - a derogatory term for any bike made in japan, used by people that ride real motorcycles like Harley Davidson and triumph
- crotch rocket - a term of endearment or fear used to describe street bikes the are built like race bikes with an aerodynamic seating position and a big fast engine..
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:39 pm

OK, OK ... I have helped divert the thread from the main topic. My apologies. Let's get real and return to wood/coal/buffalo chip burning stoves for heat, beef tallow candles, and whale oil lamps. Ahhhh, the magnificent odor. Anyone here ever think the smell of a windmill or solar panel had that same charm? Have you ever tried to make smores or roast a hot dog over a campsite "fire" of LED's? Besides, we can always wear respirators made of wet papyrus if the smoke gets too thick. There is far more to life than tweeking the last bit of electrons from the wall socket or living in a mega bee hive crammed together with thousands of other poor souls who have never walked barefoot in green grass and stepped in fresh bison poop. Just kidding ..... sort of. Back to my iPhone 7 Plus now for some real high tech "Trumped up" entertainment. ;)
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:30 am

I had an RD350. For such a small motor, it was terrifying the way it would suddenly come into its powerband. I never got comfortable trying to figure out how fast I could crank the throttle without the wheel coming up unexpectedly.

It looked just like this one, and you see how easily he wheelies it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1uFnwDbRhw
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by rickb » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:59 pm

Coal supporters in Wyoming have introduced a bill that would effectively prohibit Wyoming utilities from using renewable energy sources:

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1201 ... nge-denial
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:47 pm

These are desperation moves. They're fighting their own economic interest. It won't last.
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