Goodbye

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Goodbye

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:27 pm

We used to talk a lot about how a fundamentally civilized society doesn't need a lot of governance, rules, or laws, and how the way to a libertarian nirvana is to start with a peaceful, cooperative, well-educated group of people and to aggressively keep out the barbarians. That's what this forum used to be, and we were all proud of it.

But over time our level of civilization fell as certain inflammatory and provocative posters showed up or intensified their rhetoric. Our community suddenly required more attention to keeping the peace and enforcing the forum rules and code of conduct. But the moderators continued their light touch, allowing these disruptive posters to run wild, making thousands of posts full of garbage, bile, provocative trolling, and simple pig-headed unwillingness to listen to others. The leaders either stood by and let it happen, or directed their enforcement against those who weren't big offenders. In this manner, the quality of the discussions declined and we lost some of the most prolific and thoughtful posters, like MediumTex, Gumby, Moda, Stone, Ad Orientem, Storm, Doodle, AdamA, Lone Wolf, AgAuMoney, dragoncar, and soon, me.

It's fascinating how this forum became a microcosm of the problems with open borders and poorly-enforced laws, and equally fascinating that the perpetrators were mostly conservatives and libertarians. See y'all later; maybe somewhere else with the digital equivalents of a tougher immigration policy and a police force that actually enforces the laws.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reub
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by Reub » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:31 pm

[EDIT: Reub's comment deleted by mods. Reub is banned.]
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by FarmerD » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:14 pm

Pointedstick wrote:We used to talk a lot about how a fundamentally civilized society doesn't need a lot of governance, rules, or laws, and how the way to a libertarian nirvana is to start with a peaceful, cooperative, well-educated group of people and to aggressively keep out the barbarians. That's what this forum used to be, and we were all proud of it.

But over time our level of civilization fell as certain inflammatory and provocative posters showed up or intensified their rhetoric. Our community suddenly required more attention to keeping the peace and enforcing the forum rules and code of conduct. But the moderators continued their light touch, allowing these disruptive posters to run wild, making thousands of posts full of garbage, bile, provocative trolling, and simple pig-headed unwillingness to listen to others. The leaders either stood by and let it happen, or directed their enforcement against those who weren't big offenders. In this manner, the quality of the discussions declined and we lost some of the most prolific and thoughtful posters, like MediumTex, Gumby, Moda, Stone, Ad Orientem, Storm, Doodle, AdamA, Lone Wolf, AgAuMoney, dragoncar, and soon, me.

It's fascinating how this forum became a microcosm of the problems with open borders and poorly-enforced laws, and equally fascinating that the perpetrators were mostly conservatives and libertarians. See y'all later; maybe somewhere else with the digital equivalents of a tougher immigration policy and a police force that actually enforces the laws.
In a presidential election, especially one as heated as this one, people's emotions run high and the people who post here are no exception. I'm on a couple other forums and this happens there as well over the past 3-4 months. I'd advise you to take a few weeks vacation from the forum then come back after the election when people have calmed down and are more reflection. Then you'll see more substantive discussions. Happens on forums every 4 years.

Edit: I didn't see the exchange on the forum that occurred last night before I posted
Last edited by FarmerD on Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by ochotona » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:52 pm

Pointedstick wrote:It's fascinating how this forum became a microcosm of the problems with open borders and poorly-enforced laws, and equally fascinating that the perpetrators were mostly conservatives and libertarians. See y'all later; maybe somewhere else with the digital equivalents of a tougher immigration policy and a police force that actually enforces the laws.
I used to be heavily involved in the Republican Party, and have watched with dismay as the party, indeed the conservative movement as a whole, has gotten taken over by bullies and the intolerant. Of course, this has happened on the Left also.

If you're a conservative who believes in listening to others, and learning from them, and compromise, then you're a sell-out at best, a traitor at worst.

I have a feeling "the people" are going to speak very loudly on November 8, and they may repudiate many of the thugs, unless this October Surprise gets more surprising.
WiseOne
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2692
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:08 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by WiseOne » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:32 pm

It's true that many good posters have been lost, but I am hoping they are simply lurking and waiting for the forum to swing back to its previous high standards. I was quite encouraged when doodle posted recently. The forum downtime was responsible for a lot of that though.

PS, we will miss your pithy and well-considered posts.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:08 pm

WiseOne wrote:It's true that many good posters have been lost, but I am hoping they are simply lurking and waiting for the forum to swing back to its previous high standards. I was quite encouraged when doodle posted recently. The forum downtime was responsible for a lot of that though.

PS, we will miss your pithy and well-considered posts.
Actually, doodle didn't post recently, I replied to a years old global warming thread because more recent ones didn't come up in the search function (a chronic bug).

I was never under the impression the more-liberal members that aren't around anymore found the forum unfriendly unless they found intellectually stimulating, civil debate unfriendly? They all left during what seems like a non-acrimonious time. I know that Gumby had more pressing life priorities, so I suspect many of the other's did also.

Look, its tough to keep a forum vibrant when you don't get a constant influx of new blood that will respond intelligently to thought-provoking posts. If it was the more liberal-leaning members that took umbrage to the anti-government/anti-authority tenor of the forum, then that's what it took.

I don't condone Reub's behavior at all, but what can you do? He's responsible for his own self-control.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Goodbye

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:16 am

With stronger moderation to contain the disruptors, I'll probably stick around.
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by Jack Jones » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:30 am

maybe somewhere else with the digital equivalents of a tougher immigration policy and a police force that actually enforces the laws.
I've been flirting with joining The WELL for awhile now:

http://www.well.com/

It seems like it might fit the bill for what you're looking for. Any past/present members of The WELL on here?
User avatar
buddtholomew
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2464
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 4:16 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by buddtholomew » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:37 pm

Pointedstick wrote:With stronger moderation to contain the disruptors, I'll probably stick around.
I for one like having you around PS.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:44 pm

buddtholomew wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:With stronger moderation to contain the disruptors, I'll probably stick around.
I for one like having you around PS.
Ditto!

Why pay $15 a month for what we already have? Short of diversity.
The WELL has never been an entirely mellow place. It's possible to get thrown out for being obnoxious, but only after weeks of "thrash," as WELLbeings call long, drawn-out, repetitive, and often nasty meta-conversations about how to go about deciding how to make decisions. As a consequence of a lack of marketing budget , of the proliferation of so many other places to socialize online, and (in my opinion) as a consequence of this tolerance for free speech at the price of civility (which I would never want the WELL to excise; it's part of what makes the WELL the WELL), the growth of the WELL population topped out at around 5000 at its height in the mid-1990s. It's been declining ever since. If modest growth of new people becomes economically necessary, perhaps the atmosphere will change. In any case, I have little doubt that the WELL community will survive in some form. Once they achieve a critical mass, and once they survive for twenty-five odd years, virtual communities can be harder to kill than you'd think.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... ty/259504/
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:45 pm

Pointedstick wrote:With stronger moderation to contain the disruptors, I'll probably stick around.
How would you define disruptors vs those not choosing to run with the buffaloes? The reason I ask the question is I have always thought truth is truth regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. I would think being disruptive on a public forum would involve crude language or personal attacks vs substance attacks and the like. I have not seen much of either of those. So do rants count as disruptive? And how does one determine a rant other than saying it is a series of posts with a viewpoint the judger disagrees with?
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:01 pm

I was surprised that Reub's posts got him banned. I'm not second guessing the moderation, though. Probably better to be strict than loose in my experience. I hope he was warned. I know he was sent to purgatory in the past.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by Xan » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:03 pm

Mountaineer wrote:I would think being disruptive on a public forum would involve crude language or personal attacks vs substance attacks and the like. I have not seen much of either of those.
Reub's final straw managed to cross both the "crude language" and "personal attack" lines.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:21 pm

Mountaineer wrote:How would you define disruptors vs those not choosing to run with the buffaloes?
I suspect he's referring to me, Reub and Kshartle. I love to use crude languge and group-based identity attacks (which is an indirect form of personal attack because if you voluntarily opt yourself into the group I'm ranting against, the joke is on you!). OTOH, Reub seems to be a lot more direct when he gets emotional (I've been on the brunt end of it twice, privately). And Kshartle... well, he managed to drive even me off the forum for at least half a year, so what's that tell you? As far as I'm concerned, Kshartle destroyed the forum. It all begin there, because when I came back the forum was never the same again and all the more liberal-leaning members were gone. Moda left last year, although I do not know what happened to cause that as I think it happened during another one of my absences (which I think was caused by LC475, but I can't really remember for sure as I don't hold onto grudges for long).
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Goodbye

Post by Ad Orientem » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:03 pm

Just for the record, I still pop in now and then, though mostly as a lurker. While I will agree that the level of discourse is not up to its former standards, my main reason for not posting as much is simply that a lot of what is being posted are topics that have either been beaten to death or that have little interest for me. That and I will admit to a certain mental and emotional exhaustion with politics. I am thinking of just adding the entire 2016 election to my list of reasons for supporting monarchism. On a closing note; while I concede that Reub could sometimes be seriously irritating with his knee jerk neo-con views and occasionally acerbic posts, I am sorry to see him banned.
Last edited by Ad Orientem on Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
buddtholomew
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2464
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 4:16 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by buddtholomew » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:27 pm

I know very little about anything, but I do know that most of the recent topics have almost nothing to do with the PP philosophy or even investing at all.

Talking about HB and the portfolio was/is the draw for me.
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by ochotona » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:58 am

Why not just have a no race, politics, religion or sex rule and kill all offensive threads
curlew
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:14 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by curlew » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:18 am

ochotona wrote:Why not just have a no race, politics, religion or sex rule and kill all offensive threads
Or you could just go over to Bogleheads.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:33 am

curlew wrote:
ochotona wrote:Why not just have a no race, politics, religion or sex rule and kill all offensive threads
Or you could just go over to Bogleheads.
That place is boring! I forgot I actually was on there for a wittle bit before I discovered this here forum. I have no real memories of it unlike here. What's that tell you?

I do wish we could bring the more liberal-leaning members back because the forum only feels half-full.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
buddtholomew
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2464
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 4:16 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by buddtholomew » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:36 am

BH is not for you MG.
You will undoubtedly be banned ;D

I attribute my investing success to that forum and the advice of Bogle.
I'm not sure I could have embraced the PP philosophy without ascribing to passive investing first.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Goodbye

Post by moda0306 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:32 pm

PS,

Thanks for the shout out. If this forum loses you, it's lost a real asset. I really was hoping we could have kept a critical mass of critical thinkers here, but I am not necessarily sure that we have.

I feel bad for folks that will miss out on what I experienced, but I wouldn't be the same person I am without meeting the fine folks on this board, so I should probably just appreciate it for what it was and to some degree can still be.

Maybe after the election things will get better, but IDK about that... we'll either have Trump or Hillary in the white house. This doesn't bode well for philosophical political discussions and the statist/anarchist/technocrat unity party. :)
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:10 pm

moda0306 wrote:PS,

Thanks for the shout out. If this forum loses you, it's lost a real asset. I really was hoping we could have kept a critical mass of critical thinkers here, but I am not necessarily sure that we have.

I feel bad for folks that will miss out on what I experienced, but I wouldn't be the same person I am without meeting the fine folks on this board, so I should probably just appreciate it for what it was and to some degree can still be.

Maybe after the election things will get better, but IDK about that... we'll either have Trump or Hillary in the white house. This doesn't bode well for philosophical political discussions and the statist/anarchist/technocrat unity party. :)
Good to hear from you moda! I too hope PS decides to hang around to provide his insights.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Goodbye

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:23 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:How would you define disruptors vs those not choosing to run with the buffaloes?
I suspect he's referring to me, Reub and Kshartle. I love to use crude languge and group-based identity attacks (which is an indirect form of personal attack because if you voluntarily opt yourself into the group I'm ranting against, the joke is on you!). OTOH, Reub seems to be a lot more direct when he gets emotional (I've been on the brunt end of it twice, privately). And Kshartle... well, he managed to drive even me off the forum for at least half a year, so what's that tell you? As far as I'm concerned, Kshartle destroyed the forum. It all begin there, because when I came back the forum was never the same again and all the more liberal-leaning members were gone. Moda left last year, although I do not know what happened to cause that as I think it happened during another one of my absences (which I think was caused by LC475, but I can't really remember for sure as I don't hold onto grudges for long).
MG, you suspicions are misplaced. Whenever I find something offensive, I just stop reading, sort of like changing the channel when there is something on the tube I don't care for. I am not on a mission to fix others, and I refuse to turn control of my emotions over to others, thus I'm not easily offended. I leave helping others see the light to the Big Guy; my role is to only tell you there is a Big Guy that cares about you and your future. Go have a beer or three and chill; use all the crude language you like and attack others if that is how you wish others to remember you. As my Pastor says, it's all good. I know how the book ends. :)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Goodbye

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:36 pm

moda0306 wrote:PS,

Maybe after the election things will get better, but IDK about that... we'll either have Trump or Hillary in the white house. This doesn't bode well for philosophical political discussions and the statist/anarchist/technocrat unity party. :)
+1
dragoncar
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1111
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:23 pm

Re: Goodbye

Post by dragoncar » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:54 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:Just for the record, I still pop in now and then, though mostly as a lurker. While I will agree that the level of discourse is not up to its former standards, my main reason for not posting as much is simply that a lot of what is being posted are topics that have either been beaten to death or that have little interest for me. That and I will admit to a certain mental and emotional exhaustion with politics. I am thinking of just adding the entire 2016 election to my list of reasons for supporting monarchism. On a closing note; while I concede that Reub could sometimes be seriously irritating with his knee jerk neo-con views and occasionally acerbic posts, I am sorry to see him banned.
Same. I still think there are good discussions here, so it will be sad to lose any member. BecauseI read infrequently, usually whatever I have to say has already been covered, and better than I would have said.

PS, you'll be missed!
Post Reply