Japan -- Doomed or Not Doomed?

[MachineGhost]

Hmmm...





Women are a huge portion of the part-time increase.

At some point both spouses will be working and there will finally be enough money to finally have sex and breed?

[Pointedstick]

At some point both spouses will be working and there will finally be enough money to finally have sex and breed?

It's not about money. Most people in all of human history have had half a dozen babies with next to nothing. It's about far deeper and more subtle things: social culture regarding the value of children and motherhood; availability of spaces hospitable to children and mothers; sexual attraction and compatibility between men and women (I hear this is a big one in Japan as Japanese men have basically given up on masculinity); exposure to pro-fertility messages in culture and especially religion; availability of birth control and abortion.

[MachineGhost]

At some point both spouses will be working and there will finally be enough money to finally have sex and breed?

It's not about money. Most people in all of human history have had half a dozen babies with next to nothing. It's about far deeper and more subtle things: social culture regarding the value of children and motherhood; availability of spaces hospitable to children and mothers; sexual attraction and compatibility between men and women (I hear this is a big one in Japan as Japanese men have basically given up on masculinity); exposure to pro-fertility messages in culture and especially religion; availability of birth control and abortion.

Really? That seems a little at odds with the patriarchery of Japan's culture. You got a link?

Japan is just too insular in my view in all aspects. Even the women if they don't like their pussy men aren't going to be looking for it outside their culture. They're just too xenophobic.

[Pointedstick]

Sure do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

Herbivore men[1] or grass-eater men[2] (草食(系)男子 Sōshoku(-kei) danshi?) is a term used in Japan to describe men who have no interest in getting married or finding a girlfriend.[3] The term was coined by author Maki Fukasawa in an article published on 13 October 2006.[4][5][6][7]

Surveys of single Japanese men conducted in 2010 found that 61% of men in their 20s and 70% of men in their 30s considered themselves to be herbivores.[8] Japan's government views the phenomenon as one possible cause of the nation's declining birth rate.[9]

According to Fukasawa, herbivore men are "not without romantic relationships, but have a non-assertive, indifferent attitude toward desires of flesh". Philosopher Masahiro Morioka defines herbivore men as men who are "kind and gentle men who, without being bound by manliness, do not pursue romantic relationships voraciously and have no aptitude for being hurt or hurting others."[10]

They are men who nobody ever taught how to be men.

[MachineGhost]

According to Fukasawa, herbivore men are "not without romantic relationships, but have a non-assertive, indifferent attitude toward desires of flesh". Philosopher Masahiro Morioka defines herbivore men as men who are "kind and gentle men who, without being bound by manliness, do not pursue romantic relationships voraciously and have no aptitude for being hurt or hurting others."[10]

Boy, that's confusing because that's not really my understanding of what Japanese culture is supposed to be like, but it occurs to me I'm probably projecting the "Alpha Patriarchy" perspective onto it.

So "real" men are violent and only care about the banal superficialities just to be able to do the nasty? Come on! Maybe men have just evolved in Japan and we're seeing the consequences arising out of that. They are ahead of us in a lot of ways. What we view as "Alpha" male culture here in the West is really just curtailed misogyny originally shaped by the "Mad Men" media and promoted by pickup artist hucksters since the early 90's. They make all kinds of "Beta" male claims that may or may not be true that is salacious to any non-gay male's inner "Alpha", so they should be having a field day in Japan, and yet are they?

[Pointedstick]

So "real" men are violent and only care about the banal superficialities just to be able to do the nasty? Come on! Maybe men have just evolved in Japan and we're seeing the consequences arising out of that. They are ahead of us in a lot of ways. What we view as "Alpha" male culture here in the West is really just curtailed misogyny originally shaped by the "Mad Men" media and promoted by pickup artist hucksters since the early 90's. They make all kinds of "Beta" male claims that may or may not be true that is salacious to any non-gay male's inner "Alpha", so they should be having a field day in Japan, and yet are they?

Why do you have to think in such extremes? Real masculinity is about energy. Projection of power. Shaping the world. A quiet confidence in your ability to make things happen. The implication of the strength and willingness to defend the vulnerable. It doesn't have to be aggressive or misogynistic, and probably isn't (those are signs of psychological immaturity and weakness). These guys are perceived as un-masculine because they don't do anything. Their placid attitude is indicative of a total lack of energy. They have no edge. They couldn't defend anyone. They're not attractive to women. When foreigners go to Japan--even those who would be considered un-manly nerds here--Japanese girls go nuts over them. I have some colleagues in Japan right now who are experiencing (and benefiting from!) this.

[Reub]

"When foreigners go to Japan--even those who would be considered un-manly nerds here--Japanese girls go nuts over them. I have some colleagues in Japan right know who are experiencing (and benefiting from!) this."

Tell us more.

[jafs]

Sure do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

Herbivore men[1] or grass-eater men[2] (草食(系)男子 Sōshoku(-kei) danshi?) is a term used in Japan to describe men who have no interest in getting married or finding a girlfriend.[3] The term was coined by author Maki Fukasawa in an article published on 13 October 2006.[4][5][6][7]

Surveys of single Japanese men conducted in 2010 found that 61% of men in their 20s and 70% of men in their 30s considered themselves to be herbivores.[8] Japan's government views the phenomenon as one possible cause of the nation's declining birth rate.[9]

According to Fukasawa, herbivore men are "not without romantic relationships, but have a non-assertive, indifferent attitude toward desires of flesh". Philosopher Masahiro Morioka defines herbivore men as men who are "kind and gentle men who, without being bound by manliness, do not pursue romantic relationships voraciously and have no aptitude for being hurt or hurting others."[10]

They are men who nobody ever taught how to be men.

This quote leads one to the line of thought that MG followed.

One can pursue romantic relationships without doing that "voraciously", and an "aptitude for hurting others or being hurt" sounds very much like his post.

A non-assertive indifference towards desires of the flesh sounds more monastic to me.

In between the extremes of very passive and very active, there are a lot of gradations - these guys sound like they're in the middle somewhere. And the world can certainly use more kindness and gentleness, to my mind. We have plenty of cruelty and violence already.

As far as the attraction of foreigners, don't you think we all tend to find exotic others attractive in some ways?

[MachineGhost]

Why do you have to think in such extremes? Real masculinity is about energy. Projection of power. Shaping the world. A quiet confidence in your ability to make things happen. The implication of the strength and willingness to defend the vulnerable. It doesn't have to be aggressive or misogynistic, and probably isn't (those are signs of psychological immaturity and weakness). These guys are perceived as un-masculine because they don't do anything. Their placid attitude is indicative of a total lack of energy. They have no edge. They couldn't defend anyone. They're not attractive to women. When foreigners go to Japan--even those who would be considered un-manly nerds here--Japanese girls go nuts over them. I have some colleagues in Japan right now who are experiencing (and benefiting from!) this.

Why is it any more extreme than these pussy herbivores doing nothing which is pretty extreme itself? So I'm a little skeptical.

And Japanese women that do like foreigners are a very, very, very small proportion of Japanese culture are considered social outcasts, so that's not really informative as we're concerned with the society as a whole, not the gold-digging exceptions.

Anyway to bring this back on track, the implication here is that without any earnings power in terms of the ability to grow an income and support a growing family, women lose interest in men and men are then conditioned to turn into submissive herbivores?

[I Shrugged]

Lower birthrates are correlated with higher standards of living.
Higher birthrates are correlated with lower " " ".

[MachineGhost]

Lower birthrates are correlated with higher standards of living.
Higher birthrates are correlated with lower " " ".

Okay, well, someone prove that Japan has a higher living standard than they did at the bubble top in 1989 and currently of every other nation on earth. I really doubt feminism took hold in Japan, but 70% are pussy herbivores? Wow.

[dualstow]

(PointedStick)"When foreigners go to Japan--even those who would be considered un-manly nerds here--Japanese girls go nuts over them. I have some colleagues in Japan right know who are experiencing (and benefiting from!) this."

Tell us more.

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm ... arisma+man