Citizen's Dividend

[MachineGhost]

And where will all of those formerly employed people work?

Beats me, but I sure hope they will work on more productive jobs than being parasites draining the taxpayer. That's what so wonderful about the CD. It's a win-win for everyone!

[MachineGhost]

They won't need to work, because they will be receiving a citizen's dividend.

Harm reduction, baby!

[MachineGhost]

After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account

But inflation depends on the gap between implementation of the CD and the actual risk of technological unemployment (which is essentially infinite productivity in a post-capitalist, post-scarcity world). It might actually be better to implement it right now while there is a lack of aggregate demand and there's an oversupply of goods/services.

[MachineGhost]

Maybe but not necessarily. I don't think increased spending is all it takes to create inflation. For that you need an expansion of the money supply, which the CD would not do. It's going to shift spending from funding government bureaucracy to consumer goods and investment. That may increase some prices but it would be a giant shot in the arm for the GDP, so salaries should rise as well.

It would obviously worsen the situation in health care and education even more, but maybe then we'll finally get some real reform? Unless Trump gets to it first.

Inflation is not exclusively a monetary phenomenom, though. It's an excess demand vs supply dearth problem. It applies to money just as anything else.

[MachineGhost]

Claim fake children, perhaps?

We're not covering children for that exact reason!!! It would be insane.

[jafs]

You said investing improves productivity - the kind of investing most of us talk about is investing in the stock market, which is a secondary market. If you meant you'd invest directly in a start up business, that's a different story. But it's not part of the pp investments, which involve stock market index funds. So if you took your $15K and invested in your pp, there's no direct connection to companies.

I was pretty clear in how I defined investing and didn't refer to the PP definition, so you're making up a strawman. Nor did I bait you. I'm smart enough to understand secondary markets are bullshit for direct value creation.

It depends again on what kind of gold investments - most people on here buy gold coins. So if I go into my dealer and buy some coins, then hold them for a while and sell them back to him/her, isn't that a secondary market? It's a bunch of coins trading hands just like stocks do, not somebody buying gold bullion from a mine in South America.

It doesn't take much -- if any -- productivity to issue financial assets as they're created out of thin air. But to get a commodity the value has to be transferred all the way down the totem pole to the mining worker at the bottom. He has to get paid to dig it out and any/all tools that makes his job easier will improve his productivity and that of society's.

I remember when people were upset about buying South African Kruggerands, don't you?

Not sure what you're referring to. Over apartheid? No one was forced to buy Krugerrands, though. Blood diamonds was more of an unknown thing until that movie came out. Does that mean I shouldn't ever buy any Krugerrunds minted before apartheid was abolished?

And, please don't tell me what to discuss in my posts - I don't do that to you.

Well, you seem to keep bringing up strawman arguments about things I didnt say, so its getting a little tiring. Read what I say as literal and don't infer anything beyond that. It's a little different between me joking about you being a "token liberal" and you miscontruing what I've said.

I'm going to stop here, because we're both getting a bit testy, and I don't think anything further would be interesting or useful.

[jafs]

I can think of any number of ways people might try to scam a cd system.

Non-citizens might try to get it.
People might try to get more than their share - by faking ss#'s, claiming ones of dead people, etc.
If it uses WiseOne's idea of higher taxation, then rich and upper middle class people would try to get out of paying those taxes.

I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I'll stop now, though - it's clear that some of you are very attached to this idea. I think it's an interesting one, but nowhere near the panacea that some think.

[MachineGhost]

[dualstow]

It just occurred to me that too many people would become professional protesters.
(shudder)

[dualstow]

I feel the same.

[Mountaineer]

*Do full-on SJWs really want a real, productive job? Or are they happier spending their time protesting, etc, for their cause? Serious question.

I know several full-on SJWs that have jobs (I can't say how productive they are though, I have no information on that). The SJWs I know tend to be liberal-progressive religious types that think they (not God) can create heaven on earth now (which in my opinion is very non-Biblical). They tend to be affiliated with congregations that have endorsed same-sex marriage, abortion, worship the creature instead of the Creator, and have or endorse homosexual pastors (again, in my opinion very anti-Scriptural positions).

[dualstow]

Thank you, Mountaineer, for finding a subset of SJW's that I can actually find common ground with.

[Xan]

I hope PS chimes in on this question. IIRC, he knows many "real" SJWs from his time in college.

[Pointedstick]

The golden age of activism is in your 20s. My SJW acquaintances are beginning to age out of it as they realize that it doesn't bring in any real money and being dead broke all the time as an adult really sucks. However, older SJW types I know never lose the fire-- they just enter compatible careers, like journalist, magazine editor, lawyer (civil rights or criminal defense, of course) college professor, or head of a nonprofit.

[Mountaineer]

Thank you, Mountaineer, for finding a subset of SJW's that I can actually find common ground with.

You are most welcome. I do hope you stick around on the bright side of the grass for a while before joining those SJWs in that common toasty ground.

Blessings Dude, and stay warm in this freezing weather (at least where I am). It will get very hot eventually.

[Mountaineer]

The golden age of activism is in your 20s. My SJW acquaintances are beginning to age out of it as they realize that it doesn't bring in any real money and being dead broke all the time as an adult really sucks. However, older SJW types I know never lose the fire-- they just enter compatible careers, like journalist, magazine editor, lawyer (civil rights or criminal defense, of course) college professor, or head of a nonprofit.

You left out the environmentalists (though perhaps not, depending on if they are in one of the careers you mentioned) and TV preachers.

[Pointedstick]

The golden age of activism is in your 20s. My SJW acquaintances are beginning to age out of it as they realize that it doesn't bring in any real money and being dead broke all the time as an adult really sucks. However, older SJW types I know never lose the fire-- they just enter compatible careers, like journalist, magazine editor, lawyer (civil rights or criminal defense, of course) college professor, or head of a nonprofit.

You left out the environmentalists (though perhaps not, depending on if they are in one of the careers you mentioned) and TV preachers.

"Environmentalist" isn't a job. And we must live in very different worlds, because I don't think I've ever heard of a left-leaning SJW-type TV preacher. My impression is that they're all manipulative right-wing loonies.

[Mountaineer]

The golden age of activism is in your 20s. My SJW acquaintances are beginning to age out of it as they realize that it doesn't bring in any real money and being dead broke all the time as an adult really sucks. However, older SJW types I know never lose the fire-- they just enter compatible careers, like journalist, magazine editor, lawyer (civil rights or criminal defense, of course) college professor, or head of a nonprofit.

You left out the environmentalists (though perhaps not, depending on if they are in one of the careers you mentioned) and TV preachers.

"Environmentalist" isn't a job. And we must live in very different worlds, because I don't think I've ever heard of a left-leaning SJW-type TV preacher. My impression is that they're all manipulative right-wing loonies.

Some in the EPA might not agree with it not being a job. As for the lefty SJW type TV preachers, you need to get out more; hint - one does not need to be ordained to "preach". For example: https://www.freespeech.org/tags/social-justice and https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 833AArrUZk

[Pointedstick]

Some in the EPA might not agree with it not being a job.

People who work for the EPA are regulators and bureaucrats. I stand by what I said: "environmentalist" isn't a job.

As for the lefty SJW type TV preachers, you need to get out more; hint - one does not need to be ordained to "preach". For example: https://www.freespeech.org/tags/social-justice

Those aren't TV preachers. They're political activists--likely mostly atheists.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 833AArrUZk

Joel Osteen isn't a lefty SJW type. He's a right-leaning prosperity gospel guy.

Oh god, what am I doing? I'm letting myself get dragged into a pedantic, trollish internet argument over definitions. I am now formally stopping!

[dualstow]

Thank you, Mountaineer, for finding a subset of SJW's that I can actually find common ground with.

You are most welcome. I do hope you stick around on the bright side of the grass for a while before joining those SJWs in that common toasty ground.

Blessings Dude, and stay warm in this freezing weather (at least where I am). It will get very hot eventually.

I hope I get a separate section from the other SJWs, M. Otherwise, that would be hell on ear- well, hell in hell.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images ... artoon.jpg

http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/wate ... 4&type=cns // fixed repeat

http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/wate ... 5&type=cns

The caption for this is missing, but it's "I feel a draft" Reminds me of grandma.
http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/upl ... 6-1000.jpg

[farjean2]

Some in the EPA might not agree with it not being a job.

People who work for the EPA are regulators and bureaucrats. I stand by what I said: "environmentalist" isn't a job.

As for the lefty SJW type TV preachers, you need to get out more; hint - one does not need to be ordained to "preach". For example: https://www.freespeech.org/tags/social-justice

Those aren't TV preachers. They're political activists--likely mostly atheists.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 833AArrUZk

Joel Osteen isn't a lefty SJW type. He's a right-leaning prosperity gospel guy.

Oh god, what am I doing? I'm letting myself get dragged into a pedantic, trollish internet argument over definitions. I am now formally stopping!

I saw Joel Osteen on television once and if it wasn't the silliest thing I ever heard I don't know what is. He was preaching a sermon about "God's Favor" and how you should recognize it in your life when you see it - like when you are in a parking lot and there is only one space left - that's God's favor. Or you are at the grocery store and suddenly the line in front of you becomes empty - that's God's favor and you should acknowledge it and give thanks to the almighty for being so special to him. I thought to myself, Jesus H. Christ, wouldn't it be better when you came upon a situation like that and you really thought God had anything to do with it, to tell him he didn't need to waste his time because there were a lot of people starving and suffering all over the world and he could help them instead?

[dualstow]

Now you are just being sensible, farjean, and such cold logic is frowned upon.

[Xan]

I don't think you'll find anyone here (I could be wrong, but definitely not me and Mountaineer) who is a fan of Joel Osteen and his "gospel".

We're a bit off-track in this thread!

[farjean2]

I don't think you'll find anyone here (I could be wrong, but definitely not me and Mountaineer) who is a fan of Joel Osteen and his "gospel".

We're a bit off-track in this thread!

Okay, so to bring it back on track, maybe the question should be would Joel Osteen approve of the Citiziens Dividend? Or better yet, how about the almighty?

[Mountaineer]

Some in the EPA might not agree with it not being a job.

People who work for the EPA are regulators and bureaucrats. I stand by what I said: "environmentalist" isn't a job.

As for the lefty SJW type TV preachers, you need to get out more; hint - one does not need to be ordained to "preach". For example: https://www.freespeech.org/tags/social-justice

Those aren't TV preachers. They're political activists--likely mostly atheists.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 833AArrUZk

Joel Osteen isn't a lefty SJW type. He's a right-leaning prosperity gospel guy.

Oh god, what am I doing? I'm letting myself get dragged into a pedantic, trollish internet argument over definitions. I am now formally stopping!

Hook, line, sinker. Got ya! All in good fun, of course. Peace, and, I apologize to my NM friend. Gotta go take in an Osteen show or three now so I can get reprimed for some prosperity.