Citizen's Dividend

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:45 pm

sophie wrote:Maybe but not necessarily. I don't think increased spending is all it takes to create inflation. For that you need an expansion of the money supply, which the CD would not do. It's going to shift spending from funding government bureaucracy to consumer goods and investment. That may increase some prices but it would be a giant shot in the arm for the GDP, so salaries should rise as well.
It would obviously worsen the situation in health care and education even more, but maybe then we'll finally get some real reform? Unless Trump gets to it first. :)

Inflation is not exclusively a monetary phenomenom, though. It's an excess demand vs supply dearth problem. It applies to money just as anything else.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:47 pm

Pointedstick wrote:Claim fake children, perhaps?
We're not covering children for that exact reason!!! It would be insane.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
jafs
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:23 am

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:53 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote: You said investing improves productivity - the kind of investing most of us talk about is investing in the stock market, which is a secondary market. If you meant you'd invest directly in a start up business, that's a different story. But it's not part of the pp investments, which involve stock market index funds. So if you took your $15K and invested in your pp, there's no direct connection to companies.
I was pretty clear in how I defined investing and didn't refer to the PP definition, so you're making up a strawman. Nor did I bait you. I'm smart enough to understand secondary markets are bullshit for direct value creation.
It depends again on what kind of gold investments - most people on here buy gold coins. So if I go into my dealer and buy some coins, then hold them for a while and sell them back to him/her, isn't that a secondary market? It's a bunch of coins trading hands just like stocks do, not somebody buying gold bullion from a mine in South America.
It doesn't take much -- if any -- productivity to issue financial assets as they're created out of thin air. But to get a commodity the value has to be transferred all the way down the totem pole to the mining worker at the bottom. He has to get paid to dig it out and any/all tools that makes his job easier will improve his productivity and that of society's.
I remember when people were upset about buying South African Kruggerands, don't you?
Not sure what you're referring to. Over apartheid? No one was forced to buy Krugerrands, though. Blood diamonds was more of an unknown thing until that movie came out. Does that mean I shouldn't ever buy any Krugerrunds minted before apartheid was abolished?
And, please don't tell me what to discuss in my posts - I don't do that to you.
Well, you seem to keep bringing up strawman arguments about things I didnt say, so its getting a little tiring. Read what I say as literal and don't infer anything beyond that. It's a little different between me joking about you being a "token liberal" and you miscontruing what I've said.
I'm going to stop here, because we're both getting a bit testy, and I don't think anything further would be interesting or useful.
User avatar
jafs
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:23 am

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:57 pm

I can think of any number of ways people might try to scam a cd system.

Non-citizens might try to get it.
People might try to get more than their share - by faking ss#'s, claiming ones of dead people, etc.
If it uses sophie's idea of higher taxation, then rich and upper middle class people would try to get out of paying those taxes.

I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I'll stop now, though - it's clear that some of you are very attached to this idea. I think it's an interesting one, but nowhere near the panacea that some think.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:29 pm

Image

Image

Image
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11242
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 am

It just occurred to me that too many people would become professional protesters.
(shudder)
“As a white person of colour, I am extremely concerned about the rise of black whiteness.” — Titania McGrath
pariah — 1610s member of a low caste in S. India; Tamil (Dravidian) “drummer”, as members of the lowest caste played drums at festivals. “social outcast,” 1819.
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4264
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by pugchief » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:34 am

dualstow wrote:It just occurred to me that too many people would become professional protesters.
(shudder)
When I first read that, my brain saw posters and I thought, well, it wouldn't be so bad if we got some fresh blood here. D'oh!

But to what you actually wrote, I think there may already be way too many 'unemployed*' people doing that 'job'.


*Do full-on SJWs really want a real, productive job? Or are they happier spending their time protesting, etc, for their cause? Serious question.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11242
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:37 am

I feel the same.
“As a white person of colour, I am extremely concerned about the rise of black whiteness.” — Titania McGrath
pariah — 1610s member of a low caste in S. India; Tamil (Dravidian) “drummer”, as members of the lowest caste played drums at festivals. “social outcast,” 1819.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4315
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:13 am

pugchief wrote: *Do full-on SJWs really want a real, productive job? Or are they happier spending their time protesting, etc, for their cause? Serious question.
I know several full-on SJWs that have jobs (I can't say how productive they are though, I have no information on that). The SJWs I know tend to be liberal-progressive religious types that think they (not God) can create heaven on earth now (which in my opinion is very non-Biblical). They tend to be affiliated with congregations that have endorsed same-sex marriage, abortion, worship the creature instead of the Creator, and have or endorse homosexual pastors (again, in my opinion very anti-Scriptural positions).
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11242
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:23 am

Thank you, Mountaineer, for finding a subset of SJW's that I can actually find common ground with.
“As a white person of colour, I am extremely concerned about the rise of black whiteness.” — Titania McGrath
pariah — 1610s member of a low caste in S. India; Tamil (Dravidian) “drummer”, as members of the lowest caste played drums at festivals. “social outcast,” 1819.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3205
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Xan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:23 am

I hope PS chimes in on this question. IIRC, he knows many "real" SJWs from his time in college.
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8783
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:47 am

The golden age of activism is in your 20s. My SJW acquaintances are beginning to age out of it as they realize that it doesn't bring in any real money and being dead broke all the time as an adult really sucks. However, older SJW types I know never lose the fire-- they just enter compatible careers, like journalist, magazine editor, lawyer (civil rights or criminal defense, of course) college professor, or head of a nonprofit.
Post Reply