Citizen's Dividend

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jafs
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:02 pm

sophie wrote:
clacy wrote:After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account for the CD.
Maybe but not necessarily. I don't think increased spending is all it takes to create inflation. For that you need an expansion of the money supply, which the CD would not do. It's going to shift spending from funding government bureaucracy to consumer goods and investment. That may increase some prices but it would be a giant shot in the arm for the GDP, so salaries should rise as well.

Except for jaf of course, since he doesn't need it :-)
Ha ha :D

A rise in prices accompanied by a rise in salaries is still inflation, isn't it? It's just inflation + a rise in salaries. If purchasing power stays constant, then it's not any different than before.

And, government employees spend their money on the same stuff the rest of us do, don't they? They buy consumer goods, and if they have extra money, maybe they invest it as well.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:05 pm

How many on here would use a cd to invest directly in start-up businesses or make loans directly to them?

It's not something I'd be likely to do, personally.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:41 pm

jafs wrote:A rise in prices accompanied by a rise in salaries is still inflation, isn't it? It's just inflation + a rise in salaries. If purchasing power stays constant, then it's not any different than before.
Except that there's a lot more purchasing power at the "bottom" than there had been before. Isn't that something the left normally salivates over? Don't you think that's fantastic?
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:13 pm

jafs wrote:One could argue that giving money to people that don't need it, like you and me, is by definition fraudulent in some ways. And I can guarantee that any system we put in place will generate some people trying to scam the system - that just seems like human nature to me.
Today's non-need, is tomorrow's need. Be careful what you wish for. Medical bankruptcy is still a problem nowadays, despite ObamaCare.
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sophie
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:20 pm

I'm curious. How do you scam a system that pays out a fixed amount to each American citizen?

The point is to reduce scamming by making the rules much, much simpler. "Scam" is what currently happens in large handfuls at every government welfare program in existence.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:22 pm

Claim fake children, perhaps?
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:27 pm

jafs wrote: You said investing improves productivity - the kind of investing most of us talk about is investing in the stock market, which is a secondary market. If you meant you'd invest directly in a start up business, that's a different story. But it's not part of the pp investments, which involve stock market index funds. So if you took your $15K and invested in your pp, there's no direct connection to companies.
I was pretty clear in how I defined investing and didn't refer to the PP definition, so you're making up a strawman. Nor did I bait you. I'm smart enough to understand secondary markets are bullshit for direct value creation.
It depends again on what kind of gold investments - most people on here buy gold coins. So if I go into my dealer and buy some coins, then hold them for a while and sell them back to him/her, isn't that a secondary market? It's a bunch of coins trading hands just like stocks do, not somebody buying gold bullion from a mine in South America.
It doesn't take much -- if any -- productivity to issue financial assets as they're created out of thin air. But to get a commodity the value has to be transferred all the way down the totem pole to the mining worker at the bottom. He has to get paid to dig it out and any/all tools that makes his job easier will improve his productivity and that of society's.
I remember when people were upset about buying South African Kruggerands, don't you?
Not sure what you're referring to. Over apartheid? No one was forced to buy Krugerrands, though. Blood diamonds was more of an unknown thing until that movie came out. Does that mean I shouldn't ever buy any Krugerrunds minted before apartheid was abolished?
And, please don't tell me what to discuss in my posts - I don't do that to you.
Well, you seem to keep bringing up strawman arguments about things I didnt say, so its getting a little tiring. Read what I say as literal and don't infer anything beyond that. It's a little different between me joking about you being a "token liberal" and you miscontruing what I've said.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:32 pm

jafs wrote:I just don't see that happening much, if the dividend is high enough to live on (in your version it's substantially higher than in sophie's).
Well maybe you better research the effects of welfare currently. It has similar effects like the CD would when you exclude the massive "losers" like Detroit, West Virginia, etc. which is a cultural issue not one of money.

I just advocate that the dividing line is between low class and lower middle class. I don't know exactly what the amount would be. The focus shouldn't be on the amount anyway, but getting people out of poverty and eliminating all of the social negatives it has on everyone. Do we have to limit the CD to extreme poverty only? It'll be like $15K to me, not that useful and they probably won't work because it just moves them from extreme poverty to less extreme poverty. There has to be an incentive to take risks and it seems to me like there is a sweet spot for that in terms of income. Not too high, not too low. In other words, we want people in the lower class to come out of the shadows and the biggest way that happens is they get a job and join the larger social community.

BTW, being impoverished is a constant and stressful risk. It doesn't leave room to take on anymore.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by pugchief » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:34 pm

sophie wrote:I'm curious. How do you scam a system that pays out a fixed amount to each American citizen?

The point is to reduce scamming by making the rules much, much simpler. "Scam" is what currently happens in large handfuls at every government welfare program in existence.
Pointedstick wrote:Claim fake children, perhaps?
Or deceased people. That has worked well for the Democratic voters in Chicago for decades. I don't see why it shouldn't work on the free money level, too. :P
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:37 pm

jafs wrote:And where will all of those formerly employed people work?
Beats me, but I sure hope they will work on more productive jobs than being parasites draining the taxpayer. That's what so wonderful about the CD. It's a win-win for everyone!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:39 pm

pugchief wrote:They won't need to work, because they will be receiving a citizen's dividend. ;D
Harm reduction, baby!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:41 pm

clacy wrote:After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account
But inflation depends on the gap between implementation of the CD and the actual risk of technological unemployment (which is essentially infinite productivity in a post-capitalist, post-scarcity world). It might actually be better to implement it right now while there is a lack of aggregate demand and there's an oversupply of goods/services.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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