Citizen's Dividend

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:56 pm

As far as "utopian" goes, I'd say that many of you are much more utopian in outlook than I am.

I see the flaws in government, but also in the private sector. And, I'd like to improve both - that doesn't mean I think there are perfect solutions.

As I've already said - all systems have drawbacks. If you think that a CD is going to be the perfect solution to all of our economic/social issues, then who's the utopian really?
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:57 pm

Why has nobody responded to my questions about WiseOne's tax/neutrality idea? I hope you at least read it - it would mean that not only aren't millionaires getting a CD, they're actually getting a net loss of income through higher taxes to fund the program.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:03 pm

So far, nobody has said they'd be more productive if they got a cd.

They'd either improve their situation, sometimes with luxury items, invest money, quit their job, retire earlier, save more money, etc. Not one person has said they'd work more or produce more.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:04 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote:If the goal is to keep people out of poverty, we'd really have to use different figures for different areas, and that makes things more complicated.
Yes, its a problem, but in this age of computing power where we can track literally hundreds of different sales tax rates for every locality, its not gonna be an issue for the Treasury department to normalize purchasing power across the 11 different nations of the USA for the CD.
Yes, it's certainly doable to tailor these things more precisely.

It just makes things more complicated, and one of the original goals was simplicity.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:54 pm

Pointedstick wrote:Am I being silly not wanting to go on Medicaid? I've heard horror stories, but if it's a secret gift horse, then I'm a lot closer to FI than I thought. :P It galls me that there's no option, though.
I wouldn't fall down to it unless you starting having really freaking high medical expenses that would risk bankrupting you (which I think is no longer a risk under ObamaCare anyway?). The fee for service provider network is skimpy and atrocious; however if your state contracts Medicaid out to insurance companies to manage as a HMO/PPO, then it could be better quality than fee for serivce. So look into that and see, but keep in mind that insurance companies all create new networks for each separate plan; its not a universal pool to choose from. My criteria is always seeing what PCPs are available and looking up their ratings on the three or four review sites before deciding if any insurance plan is worth it.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:03 pm

jafs wrote: I'd need some data/sources on that extremely broad statement.
No idea. But you can see the quality by just comparing to health plans in the individual insurance market: http://www.esurance.com/
My research on the ACA plans is that they're generally quite good, since they're required to offer a certain set of basic care, including a bunch of preventive things at no cost. And, the costs for us, even without subsidies, are quite comparable to employer-sponsored plans - maybe just a little higher.
That requirement is why they cost so much in terms of copays, deductibles and premiums (don't include the subsidy as that is coming straight from taxpayer pockets; we're all subsidizing these unsustainable and overpriced private health insurance plans aka cronyism). There's no flexibility to al la carte your own insurance plan or a even use a consumer-driven high deductible HSA. Not that there was before ObamaCare, but ObamaCare just made things much, much worse. The individual mandate didn't have to be wrapped up in all of the rest of the bullshit.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:06 pm

jafs wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:Am I being silly not wanting to go on Medicaid? I've heard horror stories, but if it's a secret gift horse, then I'm a lot closer to FI than I thought. :P It galls me that there's no option, though.
Yes, that's exactly what you should do, given that you're a well-educated, working professional with lots of savings. You're just the kind of person that Medicaid is designed for.
Medicaid is "designed" to include up to individuals earning no more than 150% of FPL. Many of us here qualify if we're careful about controlling our income. There's no asset test under the ObamaCare expansion, just modified adjusted gross income (MAGI). I'm not sure how it works for families as PS is married with children.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:07 pm

jafs wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:Am I being silly not wanting to go on Medicaid? I've heard horror stories, but if it's a secret gift horse, then I'm a lot closer to FI than I thought. :P It galls me that there's no option, though.
Yes, that's exactly what you should do, given that you're a well-educated, working professional with lots of savings. You're just the kind of person that Medicaid is designed for.
I think you missed the point that I don't want to do it, but as far as I can tell the way Obamacare is set up leaves me no option but Medicaid if my ERE income doesn't meed a certain threshold, which rises with every child I have and time itself (it's indexed to inflation). At my current family size, if I quit my job and take less than about $33,000 yearly from my investment portfolio, I'm not allowed to buy a health insurance plan on the Obamacare marketplace--my only option is Medicaid. If I am slightly over this arbitrary income line, I get a huge subsidy off the cost of an Obamacare market plan, cutting the estimated monthly premiums of a silver plan $1,000 ( :o ) down to $94--paid for by people like you. As I can tell these are simply more examples of how idiotic PPACA is.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:12 pm

jafs wrote:As far as "utopian" goes, I'd say that many of you are much more utopian in outlook than I am.

I see the flaws in government, but also in the private sector. And, I'd like to improve both - that doesn't mean I think there are perfect solutions.

As I've already said - all systems have drawbacks. If you think that a CD is going to be the perfect solution to all of our economic/social issues, then who's the utopian really?
Well, when it comes to thinking government is the be all end all cure all, thats a heck of lot more utopian than a consumer-driven poverty elimination scheme. I never said CD was utopian or that it would solve all issues. I fully expect there to be a permanent underclass of drug addict "losers" and the likes. But, no one cares about them really -- if they do, they're actively involved in trying to "save" them. I applaud that, but its not for me. There's much more interesting fish to fry in life than letting the "losers" drag you down. Of course, I also expect these "losers" to all be corralled into drug using communities, villages or zones for lack of a better term for purposes of public policy harm reduction.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:15 pm

jafs wrote:So far, nobody has said they'd be more productive if they got a cd.

They'd either improve their situation, sometimes with luxury items, invest money, quit their job, retire earlier, save more money, etc. Not one person has said they'd work more or produce more.
I'd say 15K isn't enough to induce changes like that. But remember your audience -- we're not the lower class. We're already gainfully productive, semi-retired or retired and probably don't "need" 15K because its not significant enough. But it would be nice to have in terms of true social security.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:25 pm

jafs wrote: Yes, it's certainly doable to tailor these things more precisely.

It just makes things more complicated, and one of the original goals was simplicity.
Well it might be politically complicated but its not complicated at all at for the Treasury Department who already oversees SS disbursements. I don't see how you can avoid the issue, though. $1200 a month in NYC just doesn't have the same impact as $1200 in Biloxi, Mississippi. That's one reason I want to move. Like NYC, CA is freaking expensive and the middle class has been hollowed out which I don't believe is the case for upstate New York. So not only is CA super expensive, its also got a huge, huge list of negatives that come along with it. Wealth is supposed to be the means to freedom; but there is nothing free when you got two arm length's of a distance between your neighbor on both sides; traffic is congested 24/7; you have high income and sales tax rates supporting failiing public schools, overpaid public employee pensioners, everyone is also incredibly self-absorbed and materialistic, etc..

I still wonder where all the jobs are for all these superfluous tens of millions of people living in LA county alone. I just can't see it.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by WiseOne » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:44 pm

MG, if there really are "tens of millions" working to keep the current welfare system going, then I am more than ever in favor of the CD! Apart from the beautiful thought of wiping a way a big slice of government and redirecting the money to citizens.

The only issues I can see are:
1) Providing a large enough dividend to support a middle class lifestyle without the need to work. That's the Star Trek utopian vision but it would make it damned near impossible for anyone to hire unskilled/entry level workers without relying on illegal immigrants or guest workers. Too much of a risk that a relatively small slice of the population would be supporting everyone else, with the potential for a lot of social unrest and backlashing. Keeping the dividend low enough that revenue neutrality can be maintained simply by including it in taxable income and maybe increasing taxes a bit is critical.

2) Not combining this with some way to get good medical insurance. Before Obamacare, it was still very, very difficult for a self-employed or unemployed person to get insurance, because they had no leverage for bargaining with insurance companies. I think I posted my brother's story about discovering he was paying for maternity coverage for himself, but the same company & policy type refused to cover his wife. He's done better with Obamacare, but still not to the point of being in a good situation.

PS: I share jaf's concern that someone with means shouldn't really be taking Medicaid benefits, but if you do go that route: realize you won't find it comfortable and you'll spend a lot of time sitting in smelly waiting rooms with a bunch of derelicts. But as long as you avoid Medicaid hospitals and go only to teaching institutions, you'll actually get much better care than the average person going to a community hospital with red carpets and a nice cafeteria.

MG: Look up the USD/franc exchange rate. I forget which way it went but last I checked it's 0.98:1.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:50 pm

You all are not seeing the forest for the trees.

Think about what happened to the cost of college, once more money was made available for college students.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:57 pm

I don't want to be on Medicaid. I want to pay our own way. Obamacare makes it really hard. If I get my income up high enough to quality for the Obamacare marketplace, the majority of the premium is paid by someone else. If my income is too low, someone else pays for me via Medicaid, or I buy a policy in the remaining slice of the private market (thanks MG for that assurance link--I forgot about that) where the options still really aren't very good, the the very same reasons that prompted Obamacare, I imagine. Even the cheapest "catastrophic" policy costs about $250 a month, which is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for this kind of coverage. I have "catastrophic" car insurance (i.e. no collision or comprehensive coverage) and it costs me all of $32 a month. And of course I'd have to be an idiot to voluntarily spend $250 monthly for private coverage (in addition to OOP expenses) instead of going on Medicaid for free.

I just want something that fuckin' works, makes sense, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by WiseOne » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:04 pm

Pointedstick wrote:I just want something that fuckin' works, makes sense, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
You and Bernie Sanders both.

And I wouldn't mind putting the armies of coding and billing specialists out of work. That's a specialty that simply should not exist in a sane society.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:21 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:I just want something that fuckin' works, makes sense, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
You and Bernie Sanders both.
In my mind there should basically be two options: "Health Club" and "True Insurance." The Health Club option costs several hundred a month but you have zero out of pocket costs for anything ever. Basically you buy your way into UK-style single-payer. True Insurance is just that: actual insurance that pays for expensive emergencies after you've satisfied your deductible, and you pay for everything else using cash in an actual competitive marketplace where prices are transparent and reasonable.

I gather that this is sort of how it was in like the 70s and before, with HMOs being the Health Clubs. When we lived in California, we were with Kaiser Permanente which operates this was and it was awesome, and we never once experienced the kind of Kafkaesque billing nightmare I'm trying to muddle through right now. >:(
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:12 pm

WiseOne wrote:MG, if there really are "tens of millions" working to keep the current welfare system going, then I am more than ever in favor of the CD! Apart from the beautiful thought of wiping a way a big slice of government and redirecting the money to citizens.
That's not quite what I meant because there's actually only 10 million people in LA county, but it works either way.
1) Providing a large enough dividend to support a middle class lifestyle without the need to work. That's the Star Trek utopian vision but it would make it damned near impossible for anyone to hire unskilled/entry level workers without relying on illegal immigrants or guest workers. Too much of a risk that a relatively small slice of the population would be supporting everyone else, with the potential for a lot of social unrest and backlashing. Keeping the dividend low enough that revenue neutrality can be maintained simply by including it in taxable income and maybe increasing taxes a bit is critical.
When we say "middle class", people assume the traditional "middle middle class" definition not down around the border between lower class and lower middle class. In my view, lower middle class is best illustrated by serving in the military or traditional working class blue collar cops 'n firemen (before they got overpaid by public unions, of course). Inflation and taxes have simpy eroded what it takes to be "middle middle class" compared to what we grew up with. There's a risk in the gap between now and when the CD finally passes and before automation takes up the inflationary slack. Maybe we better be realistic and assume the CD just isn't going to pass politically as a unilateral intervention, but long after a lot of suffering.

I do agree that keeping it revenue neutral would help it pass politically. I don't know why we would want to tax it though. Like SS, it should be tax free and inflation adjusted so the real value of it is not eroded by politics like SS is above $25K income. And I still haven't forgot Obama's campaign promise to end taxation on all those retired and living on income below $50K.
2) Not combining this with some way to get good medical insurance. Before Obamacare, it was still very, very difficult for a self-employed or unemployed person to get insurance, because they had no leverage for bargaining with insurance companies. I think I posted my brother's story about discovering he was paying for maternity coverage for himself, but the same company & policy type refused to cover his wife. He's done better with Obamacare, but still not to the point of being in a good situation.
Switzerland is the model I wsh we followed. It only costs people about $100 francs a month for comprehensive health insurance and they have hundreds of companies to choose from in a free market. Its not perfect (it doesnt solve the third party paying patient disconnect problem), but it is a hell of a lot better than the sick mess we have now. All we need is an individual mandate, a ban on dropping coverage or lifetime maximums and a true free market instead of crony political monopolies. Sigh.
PS: I share jaf's concern that someone with means shouldn't really be taking Medicaid benefits, but if you do go that route: realize you won't find it comfortable and you'll spend a lot of time sitting in smelly waiting rooms with a bunch of derelicts. But as long as you avoid Medicaid hospitals and go only to teaching institutions, you'll actually get much better care than the average person going to a community hospital with red carpets and a nice cafeteria.
It all depends on the provider network in terms of who accepts Medicaid. I don't know very much about hospitals accepting it. Are you saying only the bottom of the barrel hospitals do and not the regular hospitals that also accept Medicare? It must have to do with low repayment rates, then. The state definitely pays even less than Medicare which is already below private insurance (the latter pegs off the former). FWIW, Medicaid is really, really stupid and should just be replaced with Medicare For All, but I digress.
MG: Look up the USD/franc exchange rate. I forget which way it went but last I checked it's 0.98:1.
I used the Big Max Index plus the exchange rate, but I think I might have gotten it backwards. I now don't think $1 USD is worth $6.50 CHF if Swizterland has more expensive COLA than the USA. It's probably the other way, i.e. $16K USD is worth $11K CHF which makes it even more worse than originally!! So $2500 CHF would about about $1750 USD here. That seems more reasonable to account for a higher COLA area. Obviously, for the CD to work, someone needs to cook up a Big Mac Index for all of the states or "nations". I can imagine the political gerrymandering that would occur if we don't legalize them to stay the hell out!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:21 am

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:Am I being silly not wanting to go on Medicaid? I've heard horror stories, but if it's a secret gift horse, then I'm a lot closer to FI than I thought. :P It galls me that there's no option, though.
Yes, that's exactly what you should do, given that you're a well-educated, working professional with lots of savings. You're just the kind of person that Medicaid is designed for.
Medicaid is "designed" to include up to individuals earning no more than 150% of FPL. Many of us here qualify if we're careful about controlling our income. There's no asset test under the ObamaCare expansion, just modified adjusted gross income (MAGI). I'm not sure how it works for families as PS is married with children.
I'd have to look into that - I know that Medicaid included asset testing previously.

And traditionally, each state has a wide latitude in how they structure their Medicaid programs, with little in the way of guidelines from the Feds.

You're talking about the Medicaid "expansion", and the SC ruled that the feds couldn't force states to enact that by coercion. So, many states haven't done that.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:24 am

Pointedstick wrote:
jafs wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:Am I being silly not wanting to go on Medicaid? I've heard horror stories, but if it's a secret gift horse, then I'm a lot closer to FI than I thought. :P It galls me that there's no option, though.
Yes, that's exactly what you should do, given that you're a well-educated, working professional with lots of savings. You're just the kind of person that Medicaid is designed for.
I think you missed the point that I don't want to do it, but as far as I can tell the way Obamacare is set up leaves me no option but Medicaid if my ERE income doesn't meed a certain threshold, which rises with every child I have and time itself (it's indexed to inflation). At my current family size, if I quit my job and take less than about $33,000 yearly from my investment portfolio, I'm not allowed to buy a health insurance plan on the Obamacare marketplace--my only option is Medicaid. If I am slightly over this arbitrary income line, I get a huge subsidy off the cost of an Obamacare market plan, cutting the estimated monthly premiums of a silver plan $1,000 ( :o ) down to $94--paid for by people like you. As I can tell these are simply more examples of how idiotic PPACA is.
I'm glad to hear it.

That's not true - anybody can buy a Marketplace plan - the income limits are about subsidies. Why do you think you couldn't buy one? There's a hole between Medicaid eligibility and the start of ACA subsidies in states that haven't expanded Medicaid eligibility. That's because the SC ruled that the feds couldn't make states expand it.

The 2016 fpl for a family of 4 is $24,240. So if you make between that and $97K/yr, you'll qualify for a sliding scale of ACA subsidies. So you can easily quit, take $33K/yr and get generous subsidies on the ACA marketplace. When I plugged in $30K/yr and a family of four, using the US average, I got a silver plan with a monthly cost of $89/month, and an actuarial value of 94%. Your out of pocket costs would max out at $4500/yr. and the plan would pay for 94% of covered expenses.

Sounds like a good deal to me, and more appropriate than Medicaid.
Last edited by jafs on Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:32 am

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote:As far as "utopian" goes, I'd say that many of you are much more utopian in outlook than I am.

I see the flaws in government, but also in the private sector. And, I'd like to improve both - that doesn't mean I think there are perfect solutions.

As I've already said - all systems have drawbacks. If you think that a CD is going to be the perfect solution to all of our economic/social issues, then who's the utopian really?
Well, when it comes to thinking government is the be all end all cure all, thats a heck of lot more utopian than a consumer-driven poverty elimination scheme. I never said CD was utopian or that it would solve all issues. I fully expect there to be a permanent underclass of drug addict "losers" and the likes. But, no one cares about them really -- if they do, they're actively involved in trying to "save" them. I applaud that, but its not for me. There's much more interesting fish to fry in life than letting the "losers" drag you down. Of course, I also expect these "losers" to all be corralled into drug using communities, villages or zones for lack of a better term for purposes of public policy harm reduction.
That would be - since I've never said that or believe it in any way, it's a huge strawman.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:33 am

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote:So far, nobody has said they'd be more productive if they got a cd.

They'd either improve their situation, sometimes with luxury items, invest money, quit their job, retire earlier, save more money, etc. Not one person has said they'd work more or produce more.
I'd say 15K isn't enough to induce changes like that. But remember your audience -- we're not the lower class. We're already gainfully productive, semi-retired or retired and probably don't "need" 15K because its not significant enough. But it would be nice to have in terms of true social security.
So it would turn productive people into unproductive ones, the opposite of the idea.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:17 am

Ok - I looked up a few things.

Apparently NM expanded Medicaid, and if you qualify for that, you can't in fact buy an ACA Marketplace plan.

So PS is right about his choices. But it's important to realize that people in that income bracket aren't generally people with large investments/savings who can tweak their income one way or another - he's an odd duck, statistically speaking.

Perhaps the programs will be tweaked to deal with that, I don't know.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:01 am

jafs wrote:Ok - I looked up a few things.

Apparently NM expanded Medicaid, and if you qualify for that, you can't in fact buy an ACA Marketplace plan.

So PS is right about his choices. But it's important to realize that people in that income bracket aren't generally people with large investments/savings who can tweak their income one way or another - he's an odd duck, statistically speaking.

Perhaps the programs will be tweaked to deal with that, I don't know.
Is that an admission that top-down, bureaucratic, one-size-fits-all federal programs are inherently unfair to odd ducks and should be abolished? I certainly think that's the case.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:10 am

No, it's an acknowledgment that large top-down programs aren't perfect.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:40 pm

jafs wrote: You're talking about the Medicaid "expansion", and the SC ruled that the feds couldn't force states to enact that by coercion. So, many states haven't done that.
True, but I'm sure New Mexico passed it. It's not one of those Deep South, Call It Anything But Racism Republican shitholes where they let the colored poor sink or swim under guise of "fiscal conservatism". Granted, states aren't currency issuers, but the Feds instituted Medicaid before the gold standard was abolished. It should just be folded into Medicare and that would improve access and provider quality.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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