Citizen's Dividend

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jafs
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:56 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote: And, heck, never mind Gates, et. al. My wife and I are in the lower range of middle class - why should the government give us $30K/yr? We don't need it, and haven't earned it in any way that I can tell.
To reduce the risk of you falling into poverty for whatever reason? That's the whole point.

Are you notsheigetz by any chance?
I'd be happy if it's there if I need it, and not if I don't need it, personally.

What's this obsession with me being other people? It's bizarre.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:40 pm

jafs wrote: My idea is very different from Obamacare (which is working well in some ways and not as well in others) - I mean directly provided free health care, not insurance systems - the real "socialized health care". So you go to a doctor/nurse/clinic/etc. and get care/services from them, and those entities are paid directly by the government, preferably on a salary system that isn't "fee for service".
Ah, you mean a public-private partnership system like in Singapore but not a socialist shithole like the VA or in the UK (or dare I say it? Venezuela!). I can get onboard with that.
jafs wrote: I'd be happy if it's there if I need it, and not if I don't need it, personally.
Would we allow people to legally disavow it against their own best interests? I kind of think not, but its always possible. The CD alone is such a huge new ideological concept for everyone that it might provoke a "Libertarian Spring".
jafs wrote: What's this obsession with me being other people? It's bizarre.
You're our new token liberal around here, so we're curious if you're actually someone new or someone from the past. O0

P.S. Fix your avatar.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:07 pm

MangoMan wrote:
jafs wrote: And, heck, never mind Gates, et. al. My wife and I are in the lower range of middle class - why should the government give us $30K/yr? We don't need it, and haven't earned it in any way that I can tell.
That's the whole point, you get it without 'earning' it. How do the people on welfare now 'earn' it, as you imply?
That's old school voodoo economics thinking akin to that we're still on a fixed exchange rate system ("gold standard"). Under the "gold standard", giving unearned money to people would have caused inflation because the money supply was constrained by the amount of gold reserves. There was no slack. Unless you personally dug for the gold to add to the reserves to expand the money supply, you didn't personally "earn" shit either.

What detractors don't understand is that -- and I learned this from reading about the ABLE Act -- is that communal working is a HUGE part of the social fabric and life experience. People rather work and belong than not work and not belong. There is strong peer pressure for this, especially in the USA. So under the CD, the disabled would have the ability to work and participate that they're currently now denied* (well, ABLE Act is an amazing baby step in the right direction). Same for those that are currently on welfare which is soul crushing -- that is how they "earn" it. The current system is just fucking perverse in that it completely disincentivizes anyone to actually go out and work or they will completely lose their safety net. It would like be trying to apply for a executive level job without even having a high school diploma!

Also, we really, really don't want people to be forced to work at jobs they're not well-suited for, hate or are not a best match just to be able to survive by affording the banal, basic necessities of life. No one likes surly, bored or unresponsible cashiers/servers. I think about 50% or something of current workers actually hate or are unhappy with their jobs.

* I'm ignoring institutional discrimination here for sake of the argument, but I don't see how the issue can possibly get any better until they come out of the shadows.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:37 pm

MangoMan wrote:
jafs wrote: And, heck, never mind Gates, et. al. My wife and I are in the lower range of middle class - why should the government give us $30K/yr? We don't need it, and haven't earned it in any way that I can tell.
That's the whole point, you get it without 'earning' it. How do the people on welfare now 'earn' it, as you imply?
We also don't need it - did you miss the first part of that sentence?

People on welfare get help because they need it.

And some people earn things and money as well.

A CD that provided us with $30K/yr of income would fit neither of those categories, so it makes little sense to me.
Last edited by jafs on Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:39 pm

How do I change my avatar?
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:43 pm

Where are the other left leaning folks?

Please come back, so I don't feel like the "token liberal" as MG puts it :)
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:45 pm

Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! Never considered the CD as birth control, but that is awesome. Maybe it won't work in Japan then. And this might be a more practical solution than putting it in the water supply. >:D
Or consider the unemployed young man who fathers a child. Today, society is unable to make him shoulder responsibility. Under a UBI, a judge could order part of his monthly grant to be extracted for child support before he ever sees it. The lesson wouldn’t be lost on his male friends.

Or consider teenage girls from poor neighborhoods who have friends turning 21. They watch—and learn—as some of their older friends use their new monthly income to rent their own apartments, buy nice clothes or pay for tuition, while others have to use the money to pay for diapers and baby food, still living with their mothers because they need help with day care
I'm confused how the UBI started at $13K and was $10K by the end of the article.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:38 pm

One of his requirements was that people use $3K of their dividend to pay for health insurance.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:26 pm

jafs wrote:One of his requirements was that people use $3K of their dividend to pay for health insurance.
Oh, well thats $250 a month. Thats more than Medicare, so it could probably work. But man, we'd really need to reform the insurance industry if we're going to force everyone to buy private insurance. The ObamaCare crap just isn't going to cut it. We would need something like Switzerland with a single national risk pool.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by WiseOne » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:45 am

Switzerland's guaranteed income referendum went down. 78% of voters voted against:

http://www.oann.com/swiss-voters-to-dec ... come-plan/

The main complaint was that the plan would be too expensive. It was $2500 francs/month per adult and $625/month per child. That's an absurdly high "basic" income level, even given the high living costs in Switzerland. A shame, because it would have been nice for the first vote on a citizen's dividend to be on a realistic plan.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:53 am

Where would you suggest the level be set?

According to previous posts, the income level is just barely above the poverty level, and I don't have kids, but know they're pretty expensive, so I'm not sure that about $300/month/child is that high?

Especially if this replaces all other programs to help low-income folks.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by WiseOne » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:24 am

Where are you getting $300/month from?

USD and the swiss franc are about equal in value. For a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids), the "poverty level" income to which you refer would be about $6250 per month - presumably tax free. You would have to earn well over $100K here to get that net income.

The goal of the citizen's dividend should be to guarantee a bare sustenance income, not a middle class lifestyle, while doing away with the machinery of means testing which is not only a poor assessor of actual need, but also an expensive and inefficient waste of resources. It's too easy for some people to game the means-testing system, and the response of making it more complicated to navigate effectively excludes others from getting the benefits they need.

I also like the idea that only citizens get the dividend, AND it would replace many programs that are being used to provide benefits to non-citizens who can't support themselves and thus have no business being here. It's thus a neat way to prevent states from spending your hard earned dollars in such an inappropriate manner, or at least it would force them to be completely transparent about it.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:52 am

Relative costs of living.

If MG is correct, and the $2500 swiss francs is just above the poverty level income for somebody in switzerland, then it would translate to less than half of that in the US - the US poverty level in 2016 is about $12K/yr. In other words, the equivalent US$ cd would be somewhere around $1200/month.

So to translate the 625 swiss francs/month/child, I took about half of that in USD.

You can't take the face amount of the swiss franc idea and simply substitute US$ - that wouldn't be an apples-apples comparison.

So, if you're comparing a family of four, then take about half of your amount, and you get about $3000/month, which is about $36K/yr, not anywhere near $100K/yr.

Where would you set the level? If it's currently set just above the poverty level, that sounds pretty "bare sustenance level" to me.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:51 am

Thanks.

I like yours a lot :D

Well, there's no gallery available to choose from - maybe I'll just leave it for now.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:03 am

The whole internet is your gallery! ;)
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:41 pm

I can't just be a mystery, wrapped in an engima?

Maybe a little embarrassing, but I have no idea how to go about uploading a picture, or where to find a good one. I play chess often, so perhaps a chess-related picture would be good. Or something musical.

Anybody want to give me a little tutorial on what to do?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:03 pm

Ok - I found a picture I like.

Now I just need to know how to make it my avatar.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Xan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:09 pm

jafs wrote:
MangoMan wrote:
jafs wrote: And, heck, never mind Gates, et. al. My wife and I are in the lower range of middle class - why should the government give us $30K/yr? We don't need it, and haven't earned it in any way that I can tell.
That's the whole point, you get it without 'earning' it. How do the people on welfare now 'earn' it, as you imply?
We also don't need it - did you miss the first part of that sentence?

People on welfare get help because they need it.

And some people earn things and money as well.

A CD that provided us with $30K/yr of income would fit neither of those categories, so it makes little sense to me.
How do you view Social Security? When you're taking it, and you don't "need" it, does it still make no sense? (I'm not challenging; I'm really curious.)

A bit more challenging: I'm still not sure you understand the disincentives that I (and everyone else) am talking about. Do you discount that problem entirely because you don't understand it, or because you don't think it's a problem? Suppose I recast your proposal to "subsidize" everybody's income up to $15K this way: you want to enact a 100% tax on all income between $1 and $15K. Does that sound like a good idea with good incentives? The problems with this are the same as with our current welfare schemes (although this one is more extreme, of course).
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:18 pm

I would probably change the SS system to work in a similar fashion.

That would mean if we didn't need it, we wouldn't get it, and that would be fine with me.

As it turns out, we'll probably need it, although I've played with the idea of not taking it if that's feasible.

I've already answered your comments about disincentives by pointing out that a cd of $15K/yr is equally disincentivizing as a mi program of $15K/yr. You failed to respond to that point at all.

I don't know why people are arguing against the current system when they respond to my comments about a different idea - have they not read/understood my posts?

All systems will have some drawbacks - there aren't any perfect ones.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:41 pm

Hey, I figured it out.

But, nobody offered to help :(
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Xan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:19 pm

jafs wrote:I've already answered your comments about disincentives by pointing out that a cd of $15K/yr is equally disincentivizing as a mi program of $15K/yr. You failed to respond to that point at all.
It's false.

If I have a citizens' dividend of $15K, and I want to start a business, or just go out and earn some extra spending money, then I can do it.

If I have this subsidy thing, then I am complete discouraged from doing so.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:12 pm

WiseOne wrote:The main complaint was that the plan would be too expensive. It was $2500 francs/month per adult and $625/month per child. That's an absurdly high "basic" income level, even given the high living costs in Switzerland. A shame, because it would have been nice for the first vote on a citizen's dividend to be on a realistic plan.
Sigh. Third time I've had to mention this. $2500 francs is only about $300 francs above the poverty level in Switzerland. It's not a "high" basic income level. But I don't understand the reasoning for paying children. I would have voted no just based on that provision. We don't want to encourage rampant breeding as a method to get wealthy (except in Japan, so maybe that is the way again to make it work there).
In order to measure poverty in Switzerland, a poverty threshold that is based on a social existence minimum is used. Therefore, people who do not have the financial means to acquire goods and services necessary to an integrated social life are considered poor. The poverty threshold is fixed according to the norms of the Swiss Conference for Social Assistance (SKOS) and consists of a fixed amount to cover living expenses, individual housing costs as well as CHF 100 per month per person aged 16 or over for additional expenses. In 2014, the poverty threshold on average was CHF 2219 per month for a single person and CHF 4031 per month for a household with two adults and two children.

In 2014, 6.6% of the Swiss population i.e. approx. 530,000 people were affected by income poverty. The median poverty gap reached 17.3% meaning that half of the people affected by poverty in Switzerland had to live off an income that represented a maximum of 82.7% of their respective poverty threshold. The most exposed groups were single-parent households, adults living on their own, people without post-compulsory training or education, people who are economically inactive and those who live in a household with a low participation in the employment market.
Source: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/i ... 07/01.html

Anyway, I actually now think smaller countries like Switzerland are the most at risk from technological unemployment and they must know it. Just give it time and it will pass once enough people see their jobs threatened.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by clacy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:52 pm

The measure failed miserably. Nearly 77% rejected the proposal.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:15 am

Xan wrote:
jafs wrote:I've already answered your comments about disincentives by pointing out that a cd of $15K/yr is equally disincentivizing as a mi program of $15K/yr. You failed to respond to that point at all.
It's false.

If I have a citizens' dividend of $15K, and I want to start a business, or just go out and earn some extra spending money, then I can do it.

If I have this subsidy thing, then I am complete discouraged from doing so.
If you want to start a business, you can do it now, right? Just get a loan and do it. And, the motivation is the desire to have a business and make a lot more than $15K/yr.

And, a mi set at the right level wouldn't discourage anybody from getting a decent full-time job that pays more (which is what we want people to have, right?).

There might be some effect on part-time job seeking by adults, that's true. But I don't see why adults should be getting crummy part time jobs without benefits anyway. Those are more suitable for teenagers/college students to get a little spending money (and in my model, I suspect those people wouldn't be getting the subsidies).

Also, you're assuming the only motivator for people is money. Some people might like to work for other reasons, and would choose to work a bit even if they didn't have to.

I still haven't seen any justification for giving millionaires money.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:18 am

A question for citizen's dividend folks.

Let's assume that it's implemented, and everybody gets $15K/yr. What would you do if you got that?

I'd just put it in the bank or invest it - it wouldn't change anything else for me. Or I might give some to charity as well. In some circumstances, it might result in people just quitting their jobs and living on the cd.
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