Citizen's Dividend

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MachineGhost
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Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:35 pm

The Swiss will go to the polls this weekend to vote in a potentially historic referendum to provide everyone in the country with a no-strings-attached monthly payment of 2,500 francs regardless of whether they're employed or not. Switzerland is not alone. The city of Utrecht in the Netherlands is conducting a pilot program, and trials of the idea are planned in Finland and the Canadian province of Ontario.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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jafs
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:50 pm

That's a pretty substantial monthly amount.

The swiss franc is about equivalent to a US $, so it's about $2500/month. One could live decently on that in many places in the US, especially if you didn't have to pay taxes on it - it's about $30K/yr.

Of course, the cost of living may be higher in Switzerland, I don't know.
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MachineGhost
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:55 pm

jafs wrote:That's a pretty substantial monthly amount.

The swiss franc is about equivalent to a US $, so it's about $2500/month. One could live decently on that in many places in the US, especially if you didn't have to pay taxes on it - it's about $30K/yr.

Of course, the cost of living may be higher in Switzerland, I don't know.
It's only about $200 francs above the poverty level in Switzerland. It sounds like you need to go read the posts on the backup forum since it was mentioned there.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:01 pm

Well, then it's clearly not as generous as I thought.

It would translate to about $1200/month here then, about $14,400/yr. Not so easy to live on that.
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I Shrugged
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:16 pm

Just a dumb, stupid, society-destroying idea.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:44 pm

I Shrugged wrote:Just a dumb, stupid, society-destroying idea.
If they pass it, I guess we'll find out. Of course, I don't think Switzerland is cursed with any violent unproductive underclasses, so it might not be a very good indication of whether or not it would work here in the USA.

Then again, maybe if the violent unproductive underclasses here got straight-up cash instead of welfare and poverty, maybe they might actually be more peaceful and productive.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:04 pm

That's certainly an interesting, and possibly good argument for giving money to those at the bottom economically.

It might be better for them to just get that money, and not engage in criminal activity to get it, since we pay (both financially and in other ways) for that crime.

My wife and visited a small town in PA a while back, and noticed a lot of kind of sketchy folks around. When we asked/mentioned it to the waitress at a restaurant, she said there were very good public benefits there, so a lot of lower income folks came there for those. The interesting thing was that even though they looked lower class, I didn't feel at all threatened by them. All they did was to go there and get their benefits, and apparently were happy and peaceful.

If there is always going to be a group that isn't productive, better that way than as criminals.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:49 pm

I Shrugged wrote:Just a dumb, stupid, society-destroying idea.
What's your plan for technological unemployment then?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:53 pm

jafs wrote:Well, then it's clearly not as generous as I thought.

It would translate to about $1200/month here then, about $14,400/yr. Not so easy to live on that.
In places like the Deep South, Appalachia or Detroit, $1200 would go an incredibly long way (and since there's an incredible dearth of products/services besides Walmart due to lack of income, it could be very economically revitalizing). There's even some mid-sized cities that you can live in on that amount as SS retirees attest (average SS check is around the same amount).

Heck, I think even PS lives on less than that per month!

The Citizen's Dividend is just consumer-driven welfare instead of government-driven. In this age of decentralization, it's a no brainer for everyone but bureaucrats.

I think compared to chronic tokers acting violent (a joke), giving them money is immensely preferable. Keep them pacified and drugged up. What's not to love for the conservatives? After all, that was the entire basis for the bullshitting war on drugs.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:03 pm

MachineGhost wrote: Heck, I think even PS lives on less than that per month!
Not quite that low, now that I have two kids. It's been a consistent average of about $1,800 a month. This includes a huge amount of fat and waste, like multiple monthly restaurant meals, buying kids' clothes at Walmart instead of goodwill or thrift stores, and my weird, expensive taste in pants (I dream of wearing superpants that never wear out--any recommendations?).
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:07 pm

And another great idea for the Citizen's Dividend is that Japan should implement it so they can reverse their terminal declining birthrate and forthcoming irrelevance. Will Abe listen??? Hello??? The cluephone is ringing for you!!!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:12 pm

That's true, there are places that one could live on for that amount.

But it's quite a bit below the average cost of living, which is about $28K/yr for a single adult.

Very few people are able to live on just their SS checks alone.
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