Reversing Diabetes

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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by Benko » Sun May 01, 2016 10:50 am

jafs wrote: I'm curious - is it just vegans that you think are biased?  Everybody has their diet of choice, I would think, and that would color their view.
Obviously not, but I've been hearing vegans claim that one can get their omega 3 needs from flax/chia but there are studies going back decades showing that flax is no substitute for preformed EPA/DHA.  To clarify if you're 20 years old and a vegan then flax may be sufficient, but as you get older the conversion of flax to EPA works less well and also omega 6 fats interferes with conversion of flax to EPA. So for many/most people flax aint' the answer.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 12:05 pm

Yeah, that's a concern.

I don't know of a better alternative for vegetarians than flaxseed oil - do you?

It's a good reason to use olive oil and other oils that aren't particularly high in omega-6, for sure, if you're a vegetarian who takes flaxseed oil.

I'm in my 50's, and generally have very good lab results at annual physicals - and I've been a vegetarian for 30 years, taking flaxseed oil for a while now.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:21 pm

Reub wrote: tbear, do you have studies to support your position? Are you saying a high carb diet will reverse diabetes? I've read in many places that fats and protein are very beneficial but you seem to be minimizing their importance. What is your opinion based on? Thanks!
I was thinking he was conflating Pritikin with cardiac disease, but you never know!  Just getting the toxic junk of a diet is 90% of the improvement.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:24 pm

Benko wrote: Even when study subjects are forced to eat so much that they didn’t lose any weight, a plant-based diet can still reverse type 2 diabetes in a matter of weeks.
TL;DR it for me.  Is it the fiber or is it the micro-nutrients/phytonutrients or both that are being replenished vs the S.A.D.?
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:29 pm

Benko wrote: Obviously not, but I've been hearing vegans claim that one can get their omega 3 needs from flax/chia but there are studies going back decades showing that flax is no substitute for preformed EPA/DHA.  To clarify if you're 20 years old and a vegan then flax may be sufficient, but as you get older the conversion of flax to EPA works less well and also omega 6 fats interferes with conversion of flax to EPA. So for many/most people flax aint' the answer.
That's pretty weak, Benko.  Vegans completely ignore science and/or twist it to support their ideological viewpoint.  It's one thing to use veganism as a short-term therapeutic diet and another as a long-term diet.  It's extremely rare than anyone can live as a vegan long-term unless they intentionally ignore the accumulative negative effects.  Only the most devout can overcome such physiological and pscyhological cravings.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:34 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Let's look at the bottom 5 countries in terms of diabetes rates:
- Mongolia
- Rwanda
- Iceland
- Burundi
- Uganda
Another very important factor is the lack of iron fortification.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 2:39 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Benko wrote: Obviously not, but I've been hearing vegans claim that one can get their omega 3 needs from flax/chia but there are studies going back decades showing that flax is no substitute for preformed EPA/DHA.  To clarify if you're 20 years old and a vegan then flax may be sufficient, but as you get older the conversion of flax to EPA works less well and also omega 6 fats interferes with conversion of flax to EPA. So for many/most people flax aint' the answer.
That's pretty weak, Benko.  Vegans completely ignore science and/or twist it to support their ideological viewpoint.  It's one thing to use veganism as a short-term therapeutic diet and another as a long-term diet.  It's extremely rare than anyone can live as a vegan long-term unless they intentionally ignore the accumulative negative effects.  Only the most devout can overcome such physiological and pscyhological cravings.
Really?

It seems to me that it's usually the meat-eaters who ignore science and health related concerns, not the vegans.

What long-term negative effects do you mean?
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:39 pm

jafs wrote: I don't know of a better alternative for vegetarians than flaxseed oil - do you?
Get it from the source the fish do: algae DHA.

I don't understand the aversion to swallowing fish oil (capsules), though.  A vegetarian is not a vegan.  It's not as if you have to chew and swallow the meat.  And there's other options besides fish, such as krill or squid.

Are you Indian?  Men being vegetarians (nevermind vegans) are very unusual because its very difficult without extenuating circumstances.  Most vegetarians are actually junk-food vegetarians purely out of ideological reasons.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 2:42 pm

Vegetarians don't want to kill/eat animals - that includes fish.

Vegans take it a step further and don't want to eat milk/butter/cheese because they're animal products.  But those don't involve killing animals.  As far as I know, you can't get fish oil without killing the fish, right?

I'm essentially vegan plus eggs/a little butter, and I'm pretty darn healthy.  You have to be smart about it, of course (but that's true of any diet).

And no, I'm American born Jewish, not Indian (of either kind), and it's been quite easy for me to be vegetarian for a long time now.  These absurdly broad statements you like to make are funny - any data to support the latest one?
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:47 pm

jafs wrote: Vegans take it a step further and don't want to eat milk/butter/cheese because they're animal products.  But those don't involve killing animals.  As far as I know, you can't get fish oil without killing the fish, right?
Not that I'm aware of.  I have less qualms about killing fish, krill or squid in sustainable manner than higher life forms.  They're gonna be eaten anyway.  I don't personally eat seafood because it's too gruesome and tastes disgusting.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 2:56 pm

jafs wrote: And no, I'm American born Jewish, not Indian (of either kind), and it's been quite easy for me to be vegetarian for a long time now.  These absurdly broad statements you like to make are funny - any data to support the latest one?
Here's a great resource: http://www.beyondveg.com/

More practically and off the top of my head, vegetarians are deficit in carnosine, l-carnitine, high quality protein (depending if you eat a lot of bovine fluids and/or avian abortions or not) and the usual laundry list of minerals like magnesium, zinc, chromium, etc., all the fatty soluble vitamins and EFA's which require supplementation to fix.  Vegetarians don't live much longer than omnivores and I believe taking iron accumulation into account negates the difference entirely.  Sarcopenia and ostereoporosis is a huge problem also.  So it's more of an ideological position not an optimal health choice.  Woman overwhelmingly do it easier because they have less muscles and less protein needs and have a strongl cultural bias to be slim.  Although by no means are all women vegetarians slim...  the junk food eating ones are overfat and diabetic.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 3:07 pm

jafs wrote: It seems to me that it's usually the meat-eaters who ignore science and health related concerns, not the vegans.

What long-term negative effects do you mean?
With red meat, iron accumulation is the culprit, which can be very easily dealt with by donating blood or taking IP6.  Other than processed meat which is junk food anyway.  So what "science" are you referring to I wonder?  Its universally all about the iron (indirectly most of the time), the processing or the saturated fat and we know the latter is discredited bunk at this point (or you wouldn't eat butter).

See the site I've posted in the other thread for long-term negative effects of vegetarian and vegan diets.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 3:12 pm

There's a lot of evidence that a vegetarian diet, engaged in intelligently, is a very healthy diet.

And, there's a list of health issues that meat eaters deal with that vegetarians don't generally experience.

Of course, if somebody eats potato chips and cookies, that's vegetarian, but it isn't healthy.  But, by the same token, many meat eaters aren't eating a balanced, healthy diet either.

That site is bizarre.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 3:15 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote: It seems to me that it's usually the meat-eaters who ignore science and health related concerns, not the vegans.

What long-term negative effects do you mean?
With red meat, iron accumulation is the culprit, which can be very easily dealt with by donating blood or taking IP6.  Other than processed meat which is junk food anyway.  So what "science" are you referring to I wonder?  Its universally all about the iron (indirectly most of the time), the processing or the saturated fat and we know the latter is discredited bunk at this point (or you wouldn't eat butter).

See the site I've posted in the other thread for long-term negative effects of vegetarian and vegan diets.
I eat "a little butter", which is fine and not a significant health issue.  Why do you see things in such extreme terms?  A little butter doesn't get you anywhere near the RDA for saturated fat.

Most meat eaters I know are very attached to their diet, and very resistant to acknowledging the health issues that are connected with it.  They also seem to like to make fun of vegetarians, which I take as some sort of insecurity on their part - I don't go around making fun of meat eaters.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 3:20 pm

There's a study associated with the NIH - you can easily find it if you google "vegetarians vs. omnivores".

It concludes that a vegan diet was consistently indicated as the most healthy one.

I didn't go through the research in detail, just looked at the intro and conclusions.

According to livestrong, vegetarian men live an average of 9.5 years longer than those who eat meat, and women vegetarians live 6.1 years longer than their counterparts.  Vegetarians also have lower cholesterol levels and lower blood pressure, and a lower risk of cardiovascular disease, stroke, cancers, type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance.

I didn't look into their sources to find the studies they relied on.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 4:18 pm

jafs wrote: It concludes that a vegan diet was consistently indicated as the most healthy one.

I didn't go through the research in detail, just looked at the intro and conclusions.
Yes, you're just picking and choosing the evidence that supports your ideological bias.  So of course you would consider BeyondVeg as "bizarre".  It's reality.  It's factual.  But its against your world-view! <shrug>

Just so you don't think I'm some kind of an ideologically-biased meat-eater that you can easily pigeon-hole, I've previously been a California vegetarian, a vegetarian, a vegan, a fruitarian, a raw foodist and ultra low carb (Atkins-style).  So I have no stake in any ideological game.  Facts are what I prefer now.

I only eat meat for the high quality protein, the other 70% of my calories is vegetarian.  If I could get away with eating the poor quality protein in vegetables, I would.  Been there, done that.  No, thanks!
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 4:55 pm

No, it's the style and layout that was odd.  And there's a lot of stuff about strange ideas, like "fruitarianism", which is extreme and not at all interesting to me.

It's kind of all over the place - sort of like your posts  :D

I notice you ignored the stuff I posted as evidence - shrug.

You can get high quality protein by combining whole grains and legumes/beans.

I'm not ideologically based either - I generally do a bunch of research before deciding what I think, and prefer facts to ideology.  My ideas about vegetarianism have formed over years of doing that, as well as practicing vegetarianism in my life and seeing the results.  There's no question that you can be a stupid vegetarian, and not get the nutrients that you need, but that's not a critique of being vegetarian, it's a critique of being stupid.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 01, 2016 5:50 pm

jafs wrote: I notice you ignored the stuff I posted as evidence - shrug.
I didn't ignore it so much as I've been there, done that already.  There's tons of evidence against the selection bias of vegetarian and vegan diet studies that pop up now and then, but I really don't want to be spending my Sunday finding them.  They may even be at BeyondVeg (no idea as I haven't been there in over a decade).  I doubt you're liable to change your stance, either, since if you actually did look at the available scientific evidence objectively, you wouldn't find any support for not eating meat as a consensus.  So I don't think you have a position based on science, just ideology (not killing animals to eat is clearly an ideology as it is against the natural order).  That's fine, but it's very important to be aware of our cognitive biases in influencing our expectations and perceptions.  So if you try to use ideology as a factual basis, I will be all over the map, indeed!

Also, you should read this thread and broaden your horizons away from the narrow mainstream dogma ("dogma" in this case means careerists who use ideology to push a certain worldview and deliberately ignore contrary scientific evidence, such as the cholesterol lipid hypothesis or was it the dietary saturated fat hypothesis?  I can never remember.): http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... alth-diet/
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by Benko » Sun May 01, 2016 6:07 pm

Jafs,

Check out the videos by the vegan MD at http://nutritionfacts.org&nbsp; There are several studies which don't show advantage for vegans (maybe it was vegetarians) and to correct that you need address the omega 3/6 thing and you need to supplement B12.  Even meat eaters over 50 need to supplement B12.

Also check out:  http://examine.com/faq/what-beneficial- ... ucts/&nbsp; (which supports MG).


You can get high quality protein by combining whole grains and legumes/beans.

It is not the same in my experience.  I'm very much a believer in that there is no ONE diet best for everyone.  But I have (really had) too much inflammation in my body and it has changed by eating shitloads of veggies/fruits/beans/herbs (some of what the vegan MD above advocates).  However when I eat beef I feel dramatically better, energized.  So I'm going to continue to eat 5 oz of beef 3 times/week. And still eat animal protein e.g. salmon, chicken,etc  once or twice a day for the moment.

"They also seem to like to make fun of vegetarians"
Perhaps you have not run across militant vegetarians who want to force their diet on everyone for their own good?
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 6:15 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote: I notice you ignored the stuff I posted as evidence - shrug.
I didn't ignore it so much as I've been there, done that already.  There's tons of evidence against the selection bias of vegetarian and vegan diet studies that pop up now and then, but I really don't want to be spending my Sunday finding them.  They may even be at BeyondVeg (no idea as I haven't been there in over a decade).  I doubt you're liable to change your stance, either, since if you actually did look at the available scientific evidence objectively, you wouldn't find any support for not eating meat as a consensus.  So I don't think you have a position based on science, just ideology (not killing animals to eat is clearly an ideology as it is against the natural order).  That's fine, but it's very important to be aware of our cognitive biases in influencing our expectations and perceptions.  So if you try to use ideology as a factual basis, I will be all over the map, indeed!

Also, you should read this thread and broaden your horizons away from the narrow mainstream dogma ("dogma" in this case means careerists who use ideology to push a certain worldview and deliberately ignore contrary scientific evidence, such as the cholesterol lipid hypothesis or was it the dietary saturated fat hypothesis?  I can never remember.): http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... alth-diet/
Then I'll stick with the nih, rather than your memory, thanks.

Not wanting to kill animals is definitely part of the reason I became and remain a vegetarian, but I wouldn't call that an "ideology" in the way you mean it.  It's a value system of some sort, though, without question.

One of the studies supposedly "debunking" the saturated fat issue was severely flawed - what it showed was that people who replaced saturated fats with refined carbs and sugar weren't any healthier - no kidding!  No reputable nutritionists would ever recommend that, of course.  But it was jumped on by a lot of people who didn't bother to look at the details.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 6:18 pm

Benko wrote: Jafs,

Check out the videos by the vegan MD at http://nutritionfacts.org&nbsp; There are several studies which don't show advantage for vegans (maybe it was vegetarians) and to correct that you need address the omega 3/6 thing and you need to supplement B12.  Even meat eaters over 50 need to supplement B12.

Also check out:  http://examine.com/faq/what-beneficial- ... ucts/&nbsp; (which supports MG).


You can get high quality protein by combining whole grains and legumes/beans.

It is not the same in my experience.  I'm very much a believer in that there is no ONE diet best for everyone.  But I have (really had) too much inflammation in my body and it has changed by eating shitloads of veggies/fruits/beans/herbs (some of what the vegan MD above advocates).  However when I eat beef I feel dramatically better, energized.  So I'm going to continue to eat 5 oz of beef 3 times/week. And still eat animal protein e.g. salmon, chicken,etc  once or twice a day for the moment.

"They also seem to like to make fun of vegetarians"
Perhaps you have not run across militant vegetarians who want to force their diet on everyone for their own good?
I've always made sure I get enough B12 - that's one of the things vegetarian/vegans should make sure they do.  And, flaxseed oil is the best we can do, apparently.  Although I might look into the algae-based stuff, but it's a lot more expensive than flaxseed oil.

You don't mention combining whole grains with beans, which is needed to get complete protein - animal protein is complete on it's own.  One of the reasons I stopped eating meat is that I felt heavy/sluggish after eating it - as a vegetarian I feel much lighter and better energetically.

It's certainly possible to eat a healthful diet that includes animal protein - it requires some thought and mindfulness to do it, just as it does to be a vegetarian and be healthy.

Thanks for the website - there's an even longer list of ways in which a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat-based one that I found easily.  One thing that stood out was that vegans tend to be deficient in a few nutrients, but that omnivores tend to be deficient in more of them.  Of course these are averages.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 6:28 pm

The mainstream isn't always right, but it's not always wrong either.

Sometimes there seems to be an attraction for people to just reflexively be "anti-mainstream" - that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

There are plenty of "non-mainstream" ideas/philosophies that are bizarre, and not reality-based.
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by Benko » Sun May 01, 2016 6:35 pm

jafs wrote: And, flaxseed oil is the best we can do, apparently.
Not sure if you missed MG's comment or eating algea is something you find ethically wrong, but

MG mentioned algea based EPA/DHA e.g. 
Nordic Naturals Algae Omega, Softgel

Total Omega-3s 715 mg* [PER 2 CAPS}
EPA Eicosapentaenoic Acid 195 mg*
DHA Docosahexaenoic Acid 390 mg*
Other Omega-3s 130 mg
jafs wrote: You don't mention combining whole grains with beans, which is needed to get complete protein - animal protein is complete on it's own.  One of the reasons I stopped eating meat is that I felt heavy/sluggish after eating it - as a vegetarian I feel much lighter and better energetically.
Not sure if that food combining e.g. beans and rice (which I love) is really needed or not (probably a video on that site I mentioned above talking about it).

"One of the reasons I stopped eating meat is that I felt heavy/sluggish after eating it - as a vegetarian I feel much lighter and better energetically."
You may be one of the people who do well on vegetarian diet.

"The mainstream isn't always right, but it's not always wrong either."
If you look at history, you'll find a series of factually wrong theories, with people who deny reality and refuse to change when the fact warrant it.  WHich is why nobel prize winning physicist Max Plank wrote:

A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

This is not the exception but the rule in how science progresses.  Why?  because people are attached to their theories and reality will not change their mind. 
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Re: Reversing Diabetes

Post by jafs » Sun May 01, 2016 6:38 pm

Thanks - I went back and added that.

It's just a lot more expensive, which sucks.

I know there are theories around today that you don't need to get complete protein at each meal, but I think it's a very good idea.  And, if I were looking into vegetarianism, but didn't feel quite right on a vegetarian diet, I'd make sure to get enough complete protein (average 50-60 grams/day for men) as well as other nutrients, like b-12, before giving up on it.

And it needs to be whole grains to work that way - white rice and beans won't do it.  They may have similar amounts of protein, but you lose out on the other benefits of the whole grains (like fiber/other nutrients).

I'm not sure how I feel about eating algae - it is defined as an "organism".  I'll have to look into it a little more.
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To PS

Post by Benko » Sun May 01, 2016 6:39 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Interestingly, fruits and vegetables appear mostly optional, even for the relatively sedentary Icelanders (compared to Rwandans, at least).
Perhaps optional, but very helpful.  There is much data on the health benefits of various vegies/fruits/legumes/herbs/spices.  Again see nutritionfacts.org
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