Reversing Diabetes

[MachineGhost]

The jury's still out on coconut oil, from my reading.

My reading of it is its all about the MCT and other antimicrobial fatty acids and very little to do with the saturated fat which is primarily (18%) myristic acid which strongly raises cholesterol and (8%) palmitic acid which also does so, but I don't remember if that is the HDL fraction or LDL fraction.  Probably the former more than the latter.

[MachineGhost]

I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question.  I'm not sure it's even possible to properly study that question without tracking a group of people for decades ... people willing to eat that stick of butter every day rather than making the more logical choice of sourcing those calories by finishing off that bottle of red wine and then eating some brisket. 

I like the story line, by the way.  I can picture MediumTex following just such a regime, with the exercise largely conducted via carpet cleaning.

That may be true, but science does know what initiates the cardiac disease cascade.  It's oxidized LDL and decreased nitric oxide (inverse relationship).  So if you deal with that problem, you've got very little to worry about in terms of cardiac disease whether or not you're ingesting an entire stick of butter for desert (I made a funny!!!) every night!

Seriously, people should spend more time worrying about cancer than cardiac disease.  The latter is so simple to deal with; the former is much more complex.  Yes, I know, this doesn't apply to Boobus Americanus eating the S.A.D..  But there's no hope for those people short of miracle drugs (like the PCSK9 inhibitors).  Arguing with a nutritionally deficit hedonistic gluttonist is an exercise in futility.

[Benko]

It is a well established fact that saturated fats increase LDL and monounsaturates and polyunsaturates decrease LDL.

So replacing saturated fats by polyunsaturated fats should be good, right?

April 13, 2016

New Look at Old Data Finds Diets Rich in Omega-6s of No Mortality Benefit

By Kelly Young Edited by David G. Fairchild, MD, MPH, and Lorenzo Di Francesco, MD, FACP, FHM Swapping out saturated fats with omega-6 fatty acid doesn't seem to improve clinical outcomes and may even be tied to worse survival among seniors, according to a reanalysis of 45-year-old data. The new findings appear in The BMJ. [British Medical Journal]

[MachineGhost]

It is a well established fact that saturated fats increase LDL and monounsaturates and polyunsaturates decrease LDL.

So replacing saturated fats by polyunsaturated fats should be good, right?

SmartBlance jiggered up a margarine formula with the simultaneous ability to raise HDL and lower LDL.  It's based on the "Hegsted Equation" which is a regression of various fats and their cholesterol raising/lowering abilities.  The whole cholesterol debate is what happens when you're too close to the trees, you can't see the forest.  People literally WANT the solution to be simple to assauge their guilt/fear, i.e. take statins, eat SmartBalance, etc. whether or not it is security theatre.

I really doubt all these latter day "revelations" are going to change the paradigm.  There's just way too much money in Big Pharma lifestyle drugs: for the C-level, for the shareholders, for the sales reps, for the network TV stations, for the physicians and for lazy patients that have no clue about most anything in life.  PCSK9 inhibitors are gonna be a blockbuster akin to the second coming of Jesus.

Anyway to get back on topic, one excellent way to reverse diabetes is getting off the toxic statins before you wind up with Type I at worst.

[jafs]

I believe that type 1 diabetes is the kind you're born with, and can't develop later on, while type 2 is the kind you may develop later in life.

It seems like people do get very caught up in small vision stuff, and lose sight of the big picture.  Eat a balanced, healthy diet, exercise regularly, don't smoke, and drink in moderation - that should cover a lot of health concerns.

That's one of the things I find disappointing about the modern "health food" industry.  Instead of looking at the big picture and how things work together, they've come up with a lot of natural stuff to use the way we use drugs.  And, there's always a new "miracle cure" for things.

[Benko]

So if PCSK9 inhibitors are wonderful, we should all invest in Amgen who makes repatha?

Repatha is an antibody that targets a specific protein, called PCSK9. PCSK9 reduces the number of receptors on the liver that remove LDL cholesterol from the blood. By blocking PCSK9’s ability to work, more receptors are available to get rid of LDL cholesterol from the blood and, as a result, lower LDL cholesterol levels.

You really think this will be miraculous without unexpected side effects?  Just asking, I know nothing about this.


"I really doubt all these latter day "revelations" are going to change the paradigm.  There's just way too much money in Big Pharma lifestyle drugs"
Is it possible that you are overly enthusiastic about influence of "big pharma"?

[MachineGhost]

So if PCSK9 inhibitors are wonderful, we should all invest in Amgen who makes repatha?

Read my bottom signature.

You really think this will be miraculous without unexpected side effects?  Just asking, I know nothing about this.

I never said that.  LDL has critically important roles in the body that have nothing to do with cholesterol transport.

Is it possible that you are overly enthusiastic about influence of "big pharma"?

Not when I look at history.  They were the Monsanto of their day.

[t-bear52]

At the risk of getting flamed, to reverse Type II Diabetes: plant based, whole food, low fat (and no salt no oil for good measure) diet is the way to reverse.
No Processed foods.

[Reub]

At the risk of getting flamed, to reverse Type II Diabetes: plant based, whole food, low fat (and no salt no oil for good measure) diet is the way to reverse.
No Processed foods.

tbear, do you have studies to support your position? Are you saying a high carb diet will reverse diabetes? I've read in many places that fats and protein are very beneficial but you seem to be minimizing their importance. What is your opinion based on? Thanks!

[Benko]

At the risk of getting flamed, to reverse Type II Diabetes: plant based, whole food, low fat (and no salt no oil for good measure) diet is the way to reverse.
No Processed foods.

tbear, do you have studies to support your position? Are you saying a high carb diet will reverse diabetes? I've read in many places that fats and protein are very beneficial but you seem to be minimizing their importance. What is your opinion based on? Thanks!

Reub,

There is no contradiction, and he is not talking about a "high carb diet", certainly not as you are thinking.

I am not saying that all the sources you know are wrong, and I do believe this guy has his biases (he's a vegan), but there is some interesting info e.g. to answer your question:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/diabete ... -the-food/

Even when study subjects are forced to eat so much that they didn’t lose any weight, a plant-based diet can still reverse type 2 diabetes in a matter of weeks.

[jafs]

I'm curious - is it just vegans that you think are biased?  Everybody has their diet of choice, I would think, and that would color their view.

[Pointedstick]

What makes sense to me is to look at the parts of the world where diabetes is very low: http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/diabe ... ranks.html

Then we need to look at the diets and lifestyles of those countries and see if we can divine any patterns.

Let's look at the bottom 5 countries in terms of diabetes rates:
- Mongolia
- Rwanda
- Iceland
- Burundi
- Uganda

What immediately stands out is that 4 out of the 5 are relatively or very poor countries. Let's start with the African countries. What do poor Africans eat? Mostly whole foods. Local whole grains, beans, fruits, and vegetables, dairy from unpasteurized milk, meat only occasionally, as a treat or part of a feast (too expensive), and often in the form of "bushmeat" (i.e. fresh from wild animals eating their natural diet). Lots of potatoes, bananas, and beans. Often wild fish.

Now onto Mongolia. The Mongolians eat a lot of dairy from unpasteurized milk (from all sorts of animals, not just cows) and wild meat. Few fruits or vegetables. Note that they eat the whole animal, not just the muscle tissue, and these animals are grazing on their natural food sources. But it's a very fatty diet! However, like the Africans, there's no processed food or refined carbs.

What also probably stands out is that total caloric intake in these places is a lot less than we're used to in the USA. These are poor people. And Africans and Mongolians probably do a lot more physical labor than we do, too. They're more likely to be using their bodies for much of the day and walking to where they need to go. The food is a fuel for exerting work. They don't just sit at a computer in a comfy chair all day (guilty).

Iceland is the only rich country on the list. But the Icelandic diet has a lot in common with the poor diets: meat and dairy from animals eating their natural diets, unprocessed seafood, some whole grains, vegetables, and beans--but not a lot. Quite similar to the Mongolian diet!

A common pattern is that the animal-based foods come from animals that are healthy and eating their natural diets. Another one is few to no processed foods or refined carbs. Not a lot of foods with added sugar, either (a refined carb, after all). Interestingly, fruits and vegetables appear mostly optional, even for the relatively sedentary Icelanders (compared to Rwandans, at least). What seems to really matter is that any animal products you eat come from animals that are happy and healthy. Consumption of a lot of plants seems to be optional. None of these people are vegetarians, and certainly not vegans. That doesn't mean that a vegetarian or vegan diet can't be healthy, but it doesn't seem to be a requirement. Probably the reason it seems that way in the USA is because virtually all of our meat and dairy is fairly unhealthy because comes from animals that are themselves unhealthy from eating crap and living stressfully and unhappily.

[Benko]

I'm curious - is it just vegans that you think are biased?  Everybody has their diet of choice, I would think, and that would color their view.

Obviously not, but I've been hearing vegans claim that one can get their omega 3 needs from flax/chia but there are studies going back decades showing that flax is no substitute for preformed EPA/DHA.  To clarify if you're 20 years old and a vegan then flax may be sufficient, but as you get older the conversion of flax to EPA works less well and also omega 6 fats interferes with conversion of flax to EPA. So for many/most people flax aint' the answer.

[jafs]

Yeah, that's a concern.

I don't know of a better alternative for vegetarians than flaxseed oil - do you?

It's a good reason to use olive oil and other oils that aren't particularly high in omega-6, for sure, if you're a vegetarian who takes flaxseed oil.

I'm in my 50's, and generally have very good lab results at annual physicals - and I've been a vegetarian for 30 years, taking flaxseed oil for a while now.

[MachineGhost]

tbear, do you have studies to support your position? Are you saying a high carb diet will reverse diabetes? I've read in many places that fats and protein are very beneficial but you seem to be minimizing their importance. What is your opinion based on? Thanks!

I was thinking he was conflating Pritikin with cardiac disease, but you never know!  Just getting the toxic junk of a diet is 90% of the improvement.

[MachineGhost]

Even when study subjects are forced to eat so much that they didn’t lose any weight, a plant-based diet can still reverse type 2 diabetes in a matter of weeks.

TL;DR it for me.  Is it the fiber or is it the micro-nutrients/phytonutrients or both that are being replenished vs the S.A.D.?

[MachineGhost]

Obviously not, but I've been hearing vegans claim that one can get their omega 3 needs from flax/chia but there are studies going back decades showing that flax is no substitute for preformed EPA/DHA.  To clarify if you're 20 years old and a vegan then flax may be sufficient, but as you get older the conversion of flax to EPA works less well and also omega 6 fats interferes with conversion of flax to EPA. So for many/most people flax aint' the answer.

That's pretty weak, Benko.  Vegans completely ignore science and/or twist it to support their ideological viewpoint.  It's one thing to use veganism as a short-term therapeutic diet and another as a long-term diet.  It's extremely rare than anyone can live as a vegan long-term unless they intentionally ignore the accumulative negative effects.  Only the most devout can overcome such physiological and pscyhological cravings.

[MachineGhost]

Let's look at the bottom 5 countries in terms of diabetes rates:
- Mongolia
- Rwanda
- Iceland
- Burundi
- Uganda

Another very important factor is the lack of iron fortification.

[jafs]

Obviously not, but I've been hearing vegans claim that one can get their omega 3 needs from flax/chia but there are studies going back decades showing that flax is no substitute for preformed EPA/DHA.  To clarify if you're 20 years old and a vegan then flax may be sufficient, but as you get older the conversion of flax to EPA works less well and also omega 6 fats interferes with conversion of flax to EPA. So for many/most people flax aint' the answer.

That's pretty weak, Benko.  Vegans completely ignore science and/or twist it to support their ideological viewpoint.  It's one thing to use veganism as a short-term therapeutic diet and another as a long-term diet.  It's extremely rare than anyone can live as a vegan long-term unless they intentionally ignore the accumulative negative effects.  Only the most devout can overcome such physiological and pscyhological cravings.

Really?

It seems to me that it's usually the meat-eaters who ignore science and health related concerns, not the vegans.

What long-term negative effects do you mean?

[MachineGhost]

I don't know of a better alternative for vegetarians than flaxseed oil - do you?

Get it from the source the fish do: algae DHA.

I don't understand the aversion to swallowing fish oil (capsules), though.  A vegetarian is not a vegan.  It's not as if you have to chew and swallow the meat.  And there's other options besides fish, such as krill or squid.

Are you Indian?  Men being vegetarians (nevermind vegans) are very unusual because its very difficult without extenuating circumstances.  Most vegetarians are actually junk-food vegetarians purely out of ideological reasons.

[jafs]

Vegetarians don't want to kill/eat animals - that includes fish.

Vegans take it a step further and don't want to eat milk/butter/cheese because they're animal products.  But those don't involve killing animals.  As far as I know, you can't get fish oil without killing the fish, right?

I'm essentially vegan plus eggs/a little butter, and I'm pretty darn healthy.  You have to be smart about it, of course (but that's true of any diet).

And no, I'm American born Jewish, not Indian (of either kind), and it's been quite easy for me to be vegetarian for a long time now.  These absurdly broad statements you like to make are funny - any data to support the latest one?

[MachineGhost]

Vegans take it a step further and don't want to eat milk/butter/cheese because they're animal products.  But those don't involve killing animals.  As far as I know, you can't get fish oil without killing the fish, right?

Not that I'm aware of.  I have less qualms about killing fish, krill or squid in sustainable manner than higher life forms.  They're gonna be eaten anyway.  I don't personally eat seafood because it's too gruesome and tastes disgusting.

[MachineGhost]

And no, I'm American born Jewish, not Indian (of either kind), and it's been quite easy for me to be vegetarian for a long time now.  These absurdly broad statements you like to make are funny - any data to support the latest one?

Here's a great resource: http://www.beyondveg.com/

More practically and off the top of my head, vegetarians are deficit in carnosine, l-carnitine, high quality protein (depending if you eat a lot of bovine fluids and/or avian abortions or not) and the usual laundry list of minerals like magnesium, zinc, chromium, etc., all the fatty soluble vitamins and EFA's which require supplementation to fix.  Vegetarians don't live much longer than omnivores and I believe taking iron accumulation into account negates the difference entirely.  Sarcopenia and ostereoporosis is a huge problem also.  So it's more of an ideological position not an optimal health choice.  Woman overwhelmingly do it easier because they have less muscles and less protein needs and have a strongl cultural bias to be slim.  Although by no means are all women vegetarians slim...  the junk food eating ones are overfat and diabetic.

[MachineGhost]

It seems to me that it's usually the meat-eaters who ignore science and health related concerns, not the vegans.

What long-term negative effects do you mean?

With red meat, iron accumulation is the culprit, which can be very easily dealt with by donating blood or taking IP6.  Other than processed meat which is junk food anyway.  So what "science" are you referring to I wonder?  Its universally all about the iron (indirectly most of the time), the processing or the saturated fat and we know the latter is discredited bunk at this point (or you wouldn't eat butter).

See the site I've posted in the other thread for long-term negative effects of vegetarian and vegan diets.

[jafs]

There's a lot of evidence that a vegetarian diet, engaged in intelligently, is a very healthy diet.

And, there's a list of health issues that meat eaters deal with that vegetarians don't generally experience.

Of course, if somebody eats potato chips and cookies, that's vegetarian, but it isn't healthy.  But, by the same token, many meat eaters aren't eating a balanced, healthy diet either.

That site is bizarre.