Indoor CO2

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Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow »

Add this to the list of things to be concerned about? Maybe.


What scientists are discovering about the air you breathe indoors
We all know that excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is bad. It’s a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming, though it has no immediate harmful effects on people in concentrations that occur outdoors. Until recently, experts believed that indoor carbon dioxide — which is emitted, for example, when people exhale — also was harmless except at extremely high levels of 5,000 parts per million (ppm) or more.

New research, however, has prompted scientists to rethink this assumption.

http://wapo.st/1OITq6E --> Washington Post
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Mountaineer »

dualstow wrote: Add this to the list of things to be concerned about? Maybe.


What scientists are discovering about the air you breathe indoors
We all know that excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is bad. It’s a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming, though it has no immediate harmful effects on people in concentrations that occur outdoors. Until recently, experts believed that indoor carbon dioxide — which is emitted, for example, when people exhale — also was harmless except at extremely high levels of 5,000 parts per million (ppm) or more.

New research, however, has prompted scientists to rethink this assumption.

http://wapo.st/1OITq6E --> Washington Post
Bullcrap!  I do not agree with the statements which are presented as fact instead of someone's bloviating.  :)  Experts?  Yeah, right!

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Re: Indoor CO2

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After reading this article a couple months ago I got a CO2 monitor and found the indoor CO2 concentration was above 1100 PPM all the time and rose to 2000+ PPM when we used our shitty low end gas oven. We've since set the the bath fan to run constantly, replaced the gas range with an induction range (totally awesome BTW, and better for bread baking too), and even cracked the windows a bit in winter. An ERV system is planned later this year, which should save money compared to the status quo of bath fan + cracked windows.

These changes have made the house a much more pleasant place inside; the air is noticeably less stale and odorous. Can't speak about the brain fog thing (supposedly at 1000 PPM or greater) but I figure lower is better.

I'd encourage everyone to experiment with dramatically increasing the fresh air in their homes.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Pointedstick wrote: I'd encourage everyone to experiment with dramatically increasing the fresh air in their homes.
We've got central air. I've been shutting off the heat and running the central fan once in a while. It'll be easier in a few days when the temp jumps to 70F.

Is your CO2 monitor different than the general one that watches out for a fireplace flue that isn't closed? Must be, because you can see the PPM instead of merely hearing a beep. Any product recommendations?
Last edited by dualstow on Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Note: CO2, not CO. I use this doohickey: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B008 ... ge_o01_s00

Also, most typical ducted systems, if properly installed, won't bring in any outside air when the fan is running. That just circulates existing inside air throughout the house. If outside air comes in when the fan is on, that means your ducts are leaky and you're waiting money and possibly risking mold problems. Some ducted systems have a make-up air unit that brings in outside air when the system is engaged, but that's not common. I wouldn't recommend one anyway since that means you're only getting fresh air when the system is running, which would be a problem if you don't or can't open the windows in the spring and fall, or for times when the system doesn't need to run very often.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Pointedstick wrote: Note: CO2, not CO.
Ah, right. Flue = carbon monoxide.
I use this doohickey: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B008 ... ge_o01_s00

Also, most typical ducted systems, if properly installed, won't bring in any outside air when the fan is running. That just circulates existing inside air throughout the house.
Now that, I did not know. I often run the fan when I create smoke on the stove, because the overhead vent is not enough. Maybe the filter is trapping something even during recirculation, but I've always thought I was pulling in fresh air from outside. Darn.

I'm grateful for the info.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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I notice a difference in indoor air when the heat's on more, and definitely feel a bit foggier mentally.

That's one reason we keep our heat low by American standards, and turn the thermostat way down overnight as well.  In spring and fall, there are often a lot of days during which one can open windows and not use heating or cooling systems.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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jafs wrote: I notice a difference in indoor air when the heat's on more, and definitely feel a bit foggier mentally.
That's a sign there's mold or another other airborne contaminant somewhere in your duct system or somewhere nearby that a leaky duct is pulling in. Either that or your furnace is broken and leaking CO2 or CO into the heated airstream through a cracked heat exchanger or something (assuming a gas furnace and not a heat pump). I'd have it checked out.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Pointedstick wrote: Note: CO2, not CO. I use this doohickey: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B008 ... ge_o01_s00

Also, most typical ducted systems, if properly installed, won't bring in any outside air when the fan is running. That just circulates existing inside air throughout the house. If outside air comes in when the fan is on, that means your ducts are leaky and you're waiting money and possibly risking mold problems. Some ducted systems have a make-up air unit that brings in outside air when the system is engaged, but that's not common. I wouldn't recommend one anyway since that means you're only getting fresh air when the system is running, which would be a problem if you don't or can't open the windows in the spring and fall, or for times when the system doesn't need to run very often.
We've got one of those.  I think it's great.  It has its own (very small) control panel where you tell it how often you want some outside air to come in, and for how long it should last.

It runs regardless of what the thermostat is doing, so the concern about it only working when the system is running isn't valid, at least in this case.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Xan wrote: We've got one of those.  I think it's great.  It has its own (very small) control panel where you tell it how often you want some outside air to come in, and for how long it should last.

It runs regardless of what the thermostat is doing, so the concern about it only working when the system is running isn't valid, at least in this case.
That's cool. Is yours a standalone system, like an HRV or an ERV? Or integrated with the ducted system? If the latter, then it has to turn on the central fan to actually distribute the air it's admitting into the duct system.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Xan »

Pointedstick wrote:
Xan wrote: We've got one of those.  I think it's great.  It has its own (very small) control panel where you tell it how often you want some outside air to come in, and for how long it should last.

It runs regardless of what the thermostat is doing, so the concern about it only working when the system is running isn't valid, at least in this case.
That's cool. Is yours a standalone system, like an HRV or an ERV? Or integrated with the ducted system? If the latter, then it has to turn on the central fan to actually distribute the air it's admitting into the duct system.
I'm not up on all the ins and outs, but I'm pretty sure that it opens a duct, and that there's only one central fan.  So yes, but it's independent of the thermostat.  More precisely perhaps, it's "upstream" of the thermostat in a control sense.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Pointedstick wrote:
jafs wrote: I notice a difference in indoor air when the heat's on more, and definitely feel a bit foggier mentally.
That's a sign there's mold or another other airborne contaminant somewhere in your duct system or somewhere nearby that a leaky duct is pulling in. Either that or your furnace is broken and leaking CO2 or CO into the heated airstream through a cracked heat exchanger or something (assuming a gas furnace and not a heat pump). I'd have it checked out.
We have a CO detector, and it's never gone off, and we have the furnace/ac checked each year, and they've always been fine, and are both only about 6-7 years old.

We also have had the ducts cleaned, and sealed with the new "better than duct tape" metal tape, and the guy who did it didn't say anything about leaky ducts.

It's possible that the mold in the attic wasn't completely fixed with the treatments we had the previous seller do, but it seemed to work well.

When I say "on more", I mean on a lot, rather than just sometimes.

But thanks for the concern.
Last edited by jafs on Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by WiseOne »

Threads like this are a big reason why this is such a great forum.  I've never thought about this before, but duh, it's obvious!  Getting that CO2 detector for sure (thanks for the link PS).

I guess that was a good side to my last apartment, which was always so hot I had semipermanent window fans running constantly even when it was below freezing out.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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jafs, if you have ducts in the attic, that's probably part of the problem. The attic is outdoors. The outdoors can get wet and grow mold, and it's more likely in a rainy climate like Kansas than it is in bone-dry New Mexico where I live. The fact that your guy sealed the ducts (with aluminum tape) means they were un-sealed before, which means they were leaky. They probably still are leaky, too. Most duct systems are, and especially most duct systems in the attic. The correct procedure to seal duct seams is with duct mastic, not foil tape, which eventually falls off.

Also, CO monitors are not actually all that useful. You see, they're programmed to ignore a large buildup of CO that dissipates over the course of a few minutes. Why? Because this is what all gas ovens do, and every time you turned one on to bake something, your alarm would beep and you'd freak out and evacuate the house. And for good reason! You're being poisoned! But this kind of poisoning is so commonplace due to the way gas ranges work (un-ducted with combustion by-products dumped into the house air) that it was decided that the detector should only detect conditions out of the ordinary--which means a sustained high level of CO that indicates that something's continuously spewing a high level of CO into the air. The monitor allows you to be slightly poisoned, but not majorly poisoned.

So your detector wouldn't necessarily go off if your gas furnace is leaking CO; the initial buildup would quickly get diluted throughout the house, and after the furnace turns off, the natural air exchange between your house and the outside (I am assuming you don't live in a Passivehaus with an ACH50 reading of < 0.6 pascals) would cause it to fall and the CO monitor might mistake it for a gas range doing its normal thing--only poisoning you a little bit.

The only real way to be sure is to buy a low-level CO monitor that actually displays the instantaneous reading of the CO level. These are expensive, $250 and up. I recently decided it made more sense for me to replace the gas appliances with electric ones that produce no CO rather than invest in more testing equipment to determine just how much the appliances are poisoning my family.

In much of Kansas, replacing the gas furnace with a heat pump makes sense, especially if your system includes air conditioning. One machine does it all, and most of the state has a climate mild enough for it to work well. But do check all the areas near your ducts, air handler, and register for mold, dead animals, mouse poop, termite colonies, etc.

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Re: Indoor CO2

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Sorry, I should have said that only low-level CO detectors will display the true PPM. My crappy detectors have PPM monitors too but they always showed zero even after the gas range was on. My point is that these things are basically giving you a false sense of security by declining to reveal the everyday CO emissions you're exposed to. If they were honest, people might throw out their gas ranges or gas range manufacturers might building integrally-ducted models. It's a kind of fraud in my book.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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If you turn on a bathroom fan or a vent hood that is actually vented outside and crack a window in another part of the house, it will pull a constant supply of fresh air into the house.

If you're going to bother running a fan to push bad air out of the house, you might as well also be pulling some fresh air in as well.

I used to have a house that was built in the 60s and it had a big ass helicopter rotor-like attic fan (it was four feet across and belt driven).  I could turn that thing on and open all of the windows in the house and there would be a STRONG breeze coming in every window.  That thing was amazing.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Pointedstick wrote: jafs, if you have ducts in the attic, that's probably part of the problem. The attic is outdoors. The outdoors can get wet and grow mold, and it's more likely in a rainy climate like Kansas than it is in bone-dry New Mexico where I live. The fact that your guy sealed the ducts (with aluminum tape) means they were un-sealed before, which means they were leaky. They probably still are leaky, too. Most duct systems are, and especially most duct systems in the attic. The correct procedure to seal duct seams is with duct mastic, not foil tape, which eventually falls off.

Also, CO monitors are not actually all that useful. You see, they're programmed to ignore a large buildup of CO that dissipates over the course of a few minutes. Why? Because this is what all gas ovens do, and every time you turned one on to bake something, your alarm would beep and you'd freak out and evacuate the house. And for good reason! You're being poisoned! But this kind of poisoning is so commonplace due to the way gas ranges work (un-ducted with combustion by-products dumped into the house air) that it was decided that the detector should only detect conditions out of the ordinary--which means a sustained high level of CO that indicates that something's continuously spewing a high level of CO into the air. The monitor allows you to be slightly poisoned, but not majorly poisoned.

So your detector wouldn't necessarily go off if your gas furnace is leaking CO; the initial buildup would quickly get diluted throughout the house, and after the furnace turns off, the natural air exchange between your house and the outside (I am assuming you don't live in a Passivehaus with an ACH50 reading of < 0.6 pascals) would cause it to fall and the CO monitor might mistake it for a gas range doing its normal thing--only poisoning you a little bit.

The only real way to be sure is to buy a low-level CO monitor that actually displays the instantaneous reading of the CO level. These are expensive, $250 and up. I recently decided it made more sense for me to replace the gas appliances with electric ones that produce no CO rather than invest in more testing equipment to determine just how much the appliances are poisoning my family.

In much of Kansas, replacing the gas furnace with a heat pump makes sense, especially if your system includes air conditioning. One machine does it all, and most of the state has a climate mild enough for it to work well. But do check all the areas near your ducts, air handler, and register for mold, dead animals, mouse poop, termite colonies, etc.

</amateur building scientist>
The return air ducts are in the attic, and the heat registers are in the floor, with the ducts in the crawl space - we have a "downflow" system.

How is an attic outdoors?  We have a roof that protects from rain, don't we?  There are vents on each side and some in the roof to allow for air circulation, which seems to be the right thing to do.  There was mold from some strange stuff before - the bathroom vent fan was venting directly into the attic.  But we had them treat that when we bought the house, and our inspector checked it out before and afterwards and said it seemed to have been fixed.  And, of course, we installed venting to vent the bath fan out of the attic.

Since the furnace/ac system is young, I'd hate to replace it with something yet - we should be able to get a lot more years out of it.  But I've thought about a heat pump system, for sure - there are a lot of things I like about them.

Whenever our great handyman/contractor guy has been under the house, we ask him to check out the conditions there, and he always says it looks good and clean to him.

Don't the HVAC companies check for leakage of CO and/or CO2 as part of their annual checks?

We have a gas stove, but don't use the pilot light, and just use a lighter to light the burners when we use them.  And we don't use the oven at all.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Desert wrote: It's infinitely more important to have CO detection than to have CO2 detection.  I recently installed a half dozen combo smoke/CO detectors in our house.
That's certainly true, but CO dangers are well known. This CO2 stuff is rather new, or specifically the idea that such low levels of carbon dioxide can cause brain fog. The Washington Post article points to some Hungarian research.

Added:
I've been focused on humidity this winter, because my old humidifiers got trashed and the heat has been drying us out at night. Then this article popped up on my kindle and grabbed my attention.

Before that it was an air purifier. Still trying to figure out whether or not it's good to run the ionizer, so I run it once in a while. I'm sure Machine Ghost has an opinion on that, but where is he?!
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Re: Indoor CO2

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A few months ago I read about this and realized I had been suffocating my kid at night by closing their door tightly and winterizing their room. Whoops. I've been cracking the door at night and I could swear he's more lucid now and has an easier time focusing. The things we do to our kids.  :-\

I've heard that getting lots of indoor plants can improve indoor air quality—and I know some office spaces do this intentionally. But I'm afraid I know nothing about plants, my house doesn't get good sunlight exposure (the sun is blocked by trees) and I've never been good at taking care of plants. I wonder if anyone knows of good indoor low-maintenance plants that are good at cleaning the air?
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Re: Indoor CO2

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A quick search turned up this...
Wikipedia: NASA Clean Air Study

The NASA Clean Air Study[1] has been led by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) in association with the Associated Landscape Contractors of America (ALCA). Its results suggest that certain common indoor plants may provide a natural way of removing toxic agents such as benzene, formaldehyde and trichloroethylene from the air, helping neutralize the effects of sick building syndrome...NASA researchers suggest efficient air cleaning is accomplished with at least one plant per 100 square feet of home or office space.
See also:

9 Air-Cleaning Houseplants That Are Almost Impossible to Kill

This Graphic Shows the Best Air-Cleaning Plants, According to NASA

I wonder if these things can survive with normal incandescent lights?
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Gumby wrote: I wonder if these things can survive with normal incandescent lights?
Peace lilies and Spider plants, pretty much bombproof and tolerant of low light.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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dualstow wrote: I'm sure Machine Ghost has an opinion on that, but where is he?!
I believe he left because most of us are too "low energy."

Does living in an NYC apartment that is so overheated that I have to leave two windows open even in the winter solve my air quality issues?
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Re: Indoor CO2

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jafs wrote:
We have a gas stove, but don't use the pilot light, and just use a lighter to light the burners when we use them.  And we don't use the oven at all.
if you don't use the pilot light how are you disconnecting it from the system?  don't they just let a continuous small stream of gas out, lit or un-lit?
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Re: Indoor CO2

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Gumby wrote: See also:

9 Air-Cleaning Houseplants That Are Almost Impossible to Kill

This Graphic Shows the Best Air-Cleaning Plants, According to NASA

I wonder if these things can survive with normal incandescent lights?
Every once in a while I see a report that plants are competing with us rather than the traditional theory about them complementing our exhalations by breathing our CO2. But, usually, I see the traditional stuff, and I've heard great things about Boston ferns erasing pollution. I see they're on the list (the graphic) that you posted.
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Re: Indoor CO2

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l82start wrote:
jafs wrote:
We have a gas stove, but don't use the pilot light, and just use a lighter to light the burners when we use them.  And we don't use the oven at all.
if you don't use the pilot light how are you disconnecting it from the system?  don't they just let a continuous small stream of gas out, lit or un-lit?
There's an adjustment that you make which cuts off the gas flow to the pilot light.  We had the guy do it when he installed the stove - if I remember right, it's a little screw.

Otherwise, you'd be right, and it would be a bad thing - of course, you would smell it easily if that happened.
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