Indoor CO2

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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by l82start » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:23 am

jafs wrote:
l82start wrote:
jafs wrote:
We have a gas stove, but don't use the pilot light, and just use a lighter to light the burners when we use them.  And we don't use the oven at all.
if you don't use the pilot light how are you disconnecting it from the system?  don't they just let a continuous small stream of gas out, lit or un-lit?
There's an adjustment that you make which cuts off the gas flow to the pilot light.  We had the guy do it when he installed the stove - if I remember right, it's a little screw.

Otherwise, you'd be right, and it would be a bad thing - of course, you would smell it easily if that happened.
i figured there had to be a way..., my imagination ran to shutoff valves  (a potential leak source) and re plumbing..  :o
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:45 am

barrett wrote:
dualstow wrote: I'm sure Machine Ghost has an opinion on that, but where is he?!
I believe he left because most of us are too "low energy."

Does living in an NYC apartment that is so overheated that I have to leave two windows open even in the winter solve my air quality issues?
But that low energy was from CO2! We're better now, MG!

I used to have to leave my apartment window open in the city, too, once upon a time. It's murder when the landlord controls your heat.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Gumby » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:00 pm

dualstow wrote:Every once in a while I see a report that plants are competing with us rather than the traditional theory about them complementing our exhalations by breathing our CO2.
Really? That sounds pretty far-fetched, but I'd be open to hearing more. I'd certainly like to know before I turn my house into a rainforest, lol.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:23 pm

Hey man, this is the far-fetched forum.  8) I'll let you know next time I come across one of those.
FWIW, I'm a big believer in indoor plants, as long as the bugs can be controlled.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:35 pm

When you turn off the pilot light or it otherwise goes out on its own, gas DOES NOT continue to come out.  The flow of gas is allowed only by a thermocouple heated by the pilot flame. 
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by jafs » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:52 pm

That's definitely not true with older stoves - we had an elderly neighbor whose pilot lights kept blowing out, and you could smell the gas.

Maybe newer stoves have that sort of safety feature.

And, with our stove, we can use the burners without any trouble at all, even though the pilot lights are disabled.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Gumby » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:02 pm

Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:03 pm

Many newer natural gas stoves use a piezoelectric igniter that eliminates the need for an always on pilot light.  My water heater uses one too as does my propane gas grill.  FWIW, generally, if a pilot flame burns a clear blue without traces of orange or yellow, the combustion is nearly "perfect" with very little CO given off.  At least that is what I was taught in my classes.

And, if you are really trying to eliminate CO2 emissions in your home, stop breathing.  ;D  It is good for the planet you know. 

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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by jafs » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:20 pm

We had one of those electric ignition stoves a while back.

The only problem was that if the power was out, it wouldn't work at all - that's why we got one without that feature more recently.  And, I also heard that a blue flame is very pure/desirable.  That's adjustable too, I believe.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:41 pm

jafs wrote: We had one of those electric ignition stoves a while back.

The only problem was that if the power was out, it wouldn't work at all - that's why we got one without that feature more recently.  And, I also heard that a blue flame is very pure/desirable.  That's adjustable too, I believe.
Not that I recommend this "at home", but I think I lit a burner with a long-handled fireplace lighter when the power was out.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Gumby » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:57 pm

Oy vey...
Indoor Plants and Indoor Air Quality

Massachusetts Department Of Public Health
Bureau Of Environmental Health | Indoor Air Quality Program

Indoor plants are used to increase the visual appeal of a space. They may also have educational value, for example in a biology class. There is some literature suggesting that indoor plants can “clean” the air of various toxic constituents such as formaldehyde; however, these claims have not been well documented in real-world situations (Wolverton et al., 1989).

The Bureau of Environmental Health’s IAQ Program has observed excessive, improperly-located, or poorly maintained plants in a variety of indoor environments. Plants and potting soil can be a source of odors, mold, pollen, and other allergens, and improper care of plants can lead to water damage in building materials.

An issue that frequently occurs as a result of poorly maintained indoor and improperly located plants is fungus gnat infestation. Often misidentified as fruit flies, fungal gnats reproduce in potting soil of plants. If plants are over-watered, fungus gnats can proliferate and become a nuisance. In order combat this problem, building occupants have been known to use store-purchased pesticides. The use of pesticides in this manner is forbidden in schools (MGL. c. 132B) and state offices (E.O. No. 403).
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:58 pm

It's always something
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Xan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:11 pm

dualstow wrote:
jafs wrote: We had one of those electric ignition stoves a while back.

The only problem was that if the power was out, it wouldn't work at all - that's why we got one without that feature more recently.  And, I also heard that a blue flame is very pure/desirable.  That's adjustable too, I believe.
Not that I recommend this "at home", but I think I lit a burner with a long-handled fireplace lighter when the power was out.
Is that particularly dangerous?  One of our burners has an ignition "sparker" that's flaky, and I use one of those candle lighter thingies.  Never thought much about it.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:39 pm

Xan wrote:
dualstow wrote: Not that I recommend this "at home", but I think I lit a burner with a long-handled fireplace lighter when the power was out.
Is that particularly dangerous?  One of our burners has an ignition "sparker" that's flaky, and I use one of those candle lighter thingies.  Never thought much about it.
I don't know, so I'm careful not to recommend it.  8)
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:16 am

jafs wrote: That's definitely not true with older stoves - we had an elderly neighbor whose pilot lights kept blowing out, and you could smell the gas.

Maybe newer stoves have that sort of safety feature.

And, with our stove, we can use the burners without any trouble at all, even though the pilot lights are disabled.
I never met my mother's sister, as she was killed many years ago by a water heater that didn't have that automatic shutoff.

They have been mandatory for some time, fortunately.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by jafs » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:41 am

dualstow wrote:
jafs wrote: We had one of those electric ignition stoves a while back.

The only problem was that if the power was out, it wouldn't work at all - that's why we got one without that feature more recently.  And, I also heard that a blue flame is very pure/desirable.  That's adjustable too, I believe.
Not that I recommend this "at home", but I think I lit a burner with a long-handled fireplace lighter when the power was out.
If I remember right, the electronic ignition system didn't allow gas to go to the burners if the power was out.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by jafs » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:44 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
jafs wrote: That's definitely not true with older stoves - we had an elderly neighbor whose pilot lights kept blowing out, and you could smell the gas.

Maybe newer stoves have that sort of safety feature.

And, with our stove, we can use the burners without any trouble at all, even though the pilot lights are disabled.
I never met my mother's sister, as she was killed many years ago by a water heater that didn't have that automatic shutoff.

They have been mandatory for some time, fortunately.
Sorry to hear that.

Water heaters may be different - our stove is new - we bought it 6 years ago, and it works fine the way we use it.  We had the guy turn off the gas to the pilot lights, and we use a lighter to light the burners when we use the stove.  There must not be a shutoff like that, or maybe it works if the pilot lights blow out, but not if they're intentionally disabled.

Interestingly, you can't use the oven that way - it has an automatic shutoff of gas if the pilot light is out.  That's why we don't use it, because we don't want a pilot light.  We got a very cool combination microwave/convection oven which works well for us - it's a bit small but there are only two of us.

I completely understand the idea behind automatically shutting off the gas if the pilot lights blow out - it's a good safety feature.
Last edited by jafs on Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Maddy » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:50 am

For the longest time, I've been scratching my head about the fact that "green" building regulations continue to mandate airtight living spaces coupled with more and more elaborate ventilation systems designed to overcome the problem of. . . you guessed it. . . airtight living spaces.  Can anyone explain the logic of this to me?  Why on earth would you insulate every wall and caulk every crevice if you're going to turn around and punch a four-inch hole in every wall to let air in?  Why not return to the elegant, time-tested solution of living with a few drafty windows?
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:07 am

Maddy wrote: For the longest time, I've been scratching my head about the fact that "green" building regulations continue to mandate airtight living spaces coupled with more and more elaborate ventilation systems designed to overcome the problem of. . . you guessed it. . . airtight living spaces.  Can anyone explain the logic of this to me?  Why on earth would you insulate every wall and caulk every crevice if you're going to turn around and punch a four-inch hole in every wall to let air in?  Why not return to the elegant, time-tested solution of living with a few drafty windows?
The answer is that if you seal up the building and use heat exchangers to transfer heat from the outside air to the inside air (or vice versa, depending on the season), you can get the benefits of both energy efficiency and good ventilation. You can't do that with a leaky building.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:58 am

Maddy wrote: For the longest time, I've been scratching my head about the fact that "green" building regulations continue to mandate airtight living spaces coupled with more and more elaborate ventilation systems designed to overcome the problem of. . . you guessed it. . . airtight living spaces.  Can anyone explain the logic of this to me?  Why on earth would you insulate every wall and caulk every crevice if you're going to turn around and punch a four-inch hole in every wall to let air in?  Why not return to the elegant, time-tested solution of living with a few drafty windows?
I agree with you 100, 1000 percent on the seeming inelegance of it. But there is a method to the madness, even if it is a sort of madness. ;)

This will be long, because green building and construction is my current kick, and I am very opinionated on the subject.

The old construction style was to build leaky, with no regard for airtightness, and with little to no insulation either. These buildings were therefore more inexpensive to build, required no fancy mechanical systems for fresh air, and they were generally robust against moisture damage due to the air and heat moving through the building assemblies that dried out anything that got wet. It also helped that these old buildings were often built with thicker, harder, old-growth lumber that did not rot as quickly. And it further helped that the wall coverings were lime plaster, which has inherent antimicrobial effects due to its alkalinity.

These old buildings worked. But they were uncomfortable without near-constant space conditioning, which made them energy pigs that saddled the owners with very high utility bills. And despite this, there were usually still rooms that were never comfortable.

This green movement is all about reducing these utility bills and making the space more comfortable. But there's an order of operations you need to follow to make the process work:

First, control water entry.
Then, add mechanical ventilation with heat and moisture recovery.
Then, control air entry.
Then, control heat entry/loss.

Each builds on the other. If you insulate before air sealing, you may create a mold problem because exterior components that were previously being warmed by indoor heat are now cold, so they don't dry out and become condensation surfaced for humid interior air. If you air seal before stopping water entry, the same thing could happen--a building element that was getting wet may now have limited drying power. And if you air seal before adding ventilation, you'll poison the occupants due to the pollutants in the indoor air, particularly if there's a gas range, unvented gas heater, or non-sealed-combustion appliances. People could die. And of course if you add ventilation without heat or moisture recovery, you're completely eliminating the savings all the air sealing work you did, so you need heat and possible moisture recovery, which means adding an electromechanical gizmo.

A lot of this is necessary regardless of green building demands, because we now build with incredibly flimsy materials due to greater environmental consciousness (e.g. don't wanna chop down old-growth forests anymore) and the escalating cost of labor. Dimensional lumber is thinner, weaker, and younger than it used to be. Walls and floors are sheathed with OSB, not lumber. Walls are covered with paper-covered gypsum, not lime plaster. These materials are defective by design in my book. They are full of nasty chemicals, warp and rot and mold if they get wet, etc.

So the current mantra is therefore to scrupulously control everything to make sure there's no water in the first place, and no air can blow through it, and so on. With such flimsy materials, you have to become an expert in this and control everything.

I don't like it, because it requires every builder to be a building scientist, and that's simply not likely because building science is an intellectual pursuit and building is a physical pursuit. The personalities of people attracted to these endeavors rarely overlap. So you get ignorant builders building mold and rot machines because they don't understand the science, and inspectors themselves are often no better, since many of them are former builders. And there's never going to be a way to totally shut off these risks. What about a burst water pipe? In an old house, you shut off the supply, evacuate the standing water, and let it dry. In a new house, everything is ruined. The drywall irreversibly turns to mush. The lumber and OSB in the walls and floor weakens and grows mold everywhere. The high humidity causes mold to grow on the chipboard cores of cheap kitchen cabinets and IKEA furniture. It's a disaster. This happened to a home next door to mine a year ago and the devastation was unbelievable.

Personally, I think this gordian knot can be cut by building with simple and durable components that are not vulnerable to water damage, like concrete blocks or bricks. Once you build a masonry unit wall, it's naturally airtight in the first place. And it won't be bothered if it gets a bit wet. So no matter what its current state is, you can safely install insulation boards on the outside.

Hopefully I haven't bored people to tears, but this is my current kick and I could go on forever if there's interest!
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:01 am

There's interest, PS. Learning a lot from you!
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:26 am

Thanks Dualstow! I'll mention that this seems to fit well under MediumTex's description of our society as "fragile and not well-thought-out." This one we can see with our own eyes! Our buildings are literally fragile and not well-thought-out.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:33 am

I know a girl in Italy who lives in a stone house. She's like, "Why do Americans build houses out of wood?"
But, I'm sure stone has its own problems. And, you have to have the kind of climate that doesn't require a lot of insulation.
I think this may have come up once upon a time when we were talking about poured concrete homes.
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by jafs » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:35 am

There are some beautiful old stone houses in our neighborhood, and I've always loved those.  But apparently, bats really like them, and we have at least a few neighbors who've had bat infestations, which are a total drag!
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Re: Indoor CO2

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:49 am

Desert wrote: PS, you should start a business...
I think about it every day. The problem is that the majority of the market is entirely cost-driven, and there are already plenty of boutique custom builders making nice things for rich people.

The real innovation is going to be a materials science pursuit: inventing a masonry building material and/or method that meets or beats the cost of wooden crap, and performs better in virtually every way.
There are already a few of these that come close, like this thing: http://crescoconcrete.com/liteblok-38/

However it isn't a good enough insulator for most of the country and isn't widely available outside of Texas. It's a real shame these things never catch on.

That's the second problem: having a better and cheaper product isn't actually enough! The entrenched conservatism of the building industry results in most people just doing what they're comfortable with, even if it's expensive, slow, and the results are bad. You'd need to really start a homebuilding company to actually produce the results that others say aren't possible. I do consider it. A lot.
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