The political re-alignment of our time

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3625
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by sophie » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:14 am

It is the corporations benefiting from low wages in places like Shenzhen and Vietnam, but US policies are there to help enable these moves because those same corporations get to buy a lot of laws and regulations via their lobbyists and their campaign contributions - to both major parties. It's a stinking corrupt system. Its only saving grace is the level of systemic incompetence and partisan bickering that limits the damage they can do.

PointedStick, I sympathize with many of the things you said, but you lost me when you started picking political sides. If anything, it's the Democrats who have pushed open-border policies, and the reason is simple: it benefits them and it's their equivalent of Republican gerrymandering. The Democrats could care less about the impact of uncontrolled, unskilled immigration on the native lower class. They are doing this because it's is an easy way to ensure greater numbers of future Democratic voters. I also consider the Democrats to be master media manipulators, especially since the media are practically in their pocket. Republicans do the same yes, but not nearly to the same extent. I'm also not sure your claim is true that it's mainly Republicans who are guilty of ethics violations. It's just that Democrats are less likely to get nailed for it because of said media manipulation - or it's simply not reported widely even if it does happen. I don't get how you're giving all this a free pass.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7610
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by moda0306 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:40 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:17 am
You know, when you announce that your entire family is on Medicaid while simultaneously posting about the joys of early retirement and the creative ways in which your considerable assets and talents are being invested, you sort of disqualify yourself from the soapbox when it comes to the question of how illegal border-crossing should be managed.
Ummm what? There is nothing illegal about using the tools for government gives us to be financial secure, safe, mobile, etc. Perhaps there is something immoral about using those tools, but I'm quite sure a glass house/stones analogy would probably be pertinent here.

PS is a pillar of what this place became at its best, and he could be leading a communist revolution with a trainload of illegal immigrants and still have more clout on this forum than you and your meandering, factless tirades against "The Left."
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3792
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:41 am

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:40 am
Maddy wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:17 am
You know, when you announce that your entire family is on Medicaid while simultaneously posting about the joys of early retirement and the creative ways in which your considerable assets and talents are being invested, you sort of disqualify yourself from the soapbox when it comes to the question of how illegal border-crossing should be managed.
Ummm what? There is nothing illegal about using the tools for government gives us to be financial secure, safe, mobile, etc. Perhaps there is something immoral about using those tools, but I'm quite sure a glass house/stones analogy would probably be pertinent here.

PS is a pillar of what this place became at its best, and he could be leading a communist revolution with a trainload of illegal immigrants and still have more clout on this forum than you and your meandering, factless tirades against "The Left."
Moda, that’s rather harsh. I think we all benefit from others points of view, whether we agree with them or not. We all need ears to hear each other or we will become worse than those we oppose. My half cent.
Vocation - doing what God has given me to do for the sake of the other.
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3525
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by pugchief » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:20 pm

I don't have anything to add, but I would like to cast my vote.
Maddy wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:53 pm
Shouldn't the anger be directed at the multinational monopolist corporations who, aided and abetted by the U.S. military, a host of NGOs, and approximately 235 whores, have been harvesting these countries for decades? These aren't climate refugees; they are the victims of the proverbial Economic Hitman. It's not terribly hard to understand the political imperative to move these people somewhere else or why the Elites--who have squeezed every dollar they can out of the financial system and who have now set their sights on cornering the world's natural resources (as trustees of the planet, dontcha know)--are so hell bent on perpetuating the narrative of climate change.
Great post, Maddy.
sophie wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:14 am
PointedStick, I sympathize with many of the things you said, but you lost me when you started picking political sides. If anything, it's the Democrats who have pushed open-border policies, and the reason is simple: it benefits them and it's their equivalent of Republican gerrymandering. The Democrats could care less about the impact of uncontrolled, unskilled immigration on the native lower class. They are doing this because it's is an easy way to ensure greater numbers of future Democratic voters. I also consider the Democrats to be master media manipulators, especially since the media are practically in their pocket. Republicans do the same yes, but not nearly to the same extent. I'm also not sure your claim is true that it's mainly Republicans who are guilty of ethics violations. It's just that Democrats are less likely to get nailed for it because of said media manipulation - or it's simply not reported widely even if it does happen. I don't get how you're giving all this a free pass.
Also very well stated and I also wonder what PS's Kool-aid got spiked with.
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:41 am
Moda, that’s rather harsh. I think we all benefit from others points of view, whether we agree with them or not. We all need ears to hear each other or we will become worse than those we oppose.
+1. Jeez Moda, you're clearly a smart guy, but you sound like all the others that maintain if you don't agree with their view 100% you are a moron.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7610
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by moda0306 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:59 pm

pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:20 pm
I don't have anything to add, but I would like to cast my vote.
Maddy wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:53 pm
Shouldn't the anger be directed at the multinational monopolist corporations who, aided and abetted by the U.S. military, a host of NGOs, and approximately 235 whores, have been harvesting these countries for decades? These aren't climate refugees; they are the victims of the proverbial Economic Hitman. It's not terribly hard to understand the political imperative to move these people somewhere else or why the Elites--who have squeezed every dollar they can out of the financial system and who have now set their sights on cornering the world's natural resources (as trustees of the planet, dontcha know)--are so hell bent on perpetuating the narrative of climate change.
Great post, Maddy.
sophie wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:14 am
PointedStick, I sympathize with many of the things you said, but you lost me when you started picking political sides. If anything, it's the Democrats who have pushed open-border policies, and the reason is simple: it benefits them and it's their equivalent of Republican gerrymandering. The Democrats could care less about the impact of uncontrolled, unskilled immigration on the native lower class. They are doing this because it's is an easy way to ensure greater numbers of future Democratic voters. I also consider the Democrats to be master media manipulators, especially since the media are practically in their pocket. Republicans do the same yes, but not nearly to the same extent. I'm also not sure your claim is true that it's mainly Republicans who are guilty of ethics violations. It's just that Democrats are less likely to get nailed for it because of said media manipulation - or it's simply not reported widely even if it does happen. I don't get how you're giving all this a free pass.
Also very well stated and I also wonder what PS's Kool-aid got spiked with.
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:41 am
Moda, that’s rather harsh. I think we all benefit from others points of view, whether we agree with them or not. We all need ears to hear each other or we will become worse than those we oppose.
+1. Jeez Moda, you're clearly a smart guy, but you sound like all the others that maintain if you don't agree with their view 100% you are a moron.
I've never agreed with PS 100%, nor anyone here probably. There's a reason I end up coming to blows with only a handful of folks. I have no problem disagreeing with folks based purely on their opinion. Anarchists... libertarians... conservatives like Xan... Monarchists like Ad... liberal-leaning centrists... hard leftists.

Yes I was harsh. So was Maddy's insulting post to PS. Maddy isn't a shadow of what PS or half of the original posters on this forum are/were, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise while Maddy insults people who've practically got their names etched into the foundation of this place... even if I, yes, have to get insulting myself.

And I'm not really that smart. I think I've developed an ability to sniff out b*llshit and bad-faith arguments, and that's about it.
User avatar
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Kbg » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:57 pm

Ugg, and there you have it. What passes for political discussion in America these days.

We should try something really hard...start with facts. If we can't agree on the facts then sides have to state why "their" facts and sources are credible and the other side can rebut. (CNN/FOX/whatever sucks and is never truthful is not a rebuttal...proof of error pertaining to thing being discussed required.)

Then, have a discussion.

Anyone who goes ad hominem on anyone get's all their posts in the thread deleted by the moderator.

I am beyond sick of start with a world view and then fit/reject facts within that view

ugg, ugg, ugg
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Tortoise » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:38 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:57 pm
I am beyond sick of start with a world view and then fit/reject facts within that view
I almost don't know where to find reliable facts anymore. My tentative assumption whenever I see "facts" presented anywhere that relate even the tiniest bit to politics is that the entity presenting those "facts" might be distorting what they're presenting, omitting other important and relevant facts, etc.

In other words, I don't think it's necessarily simple to "stick to the facts" in this Information Age. We can't even agree 100% on what the facts are.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2601
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Xan » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:43 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:38 pm
Kbg wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:57 pm
I am beyond sick of start with a world view and then fit/reject facts within that view
I almost don't know where to find reliable facts anymore. My tentative assumption whenever I see "facts" presented anywhere that relate even the tiniest bit to politics is that the entity presenting those "facts" might be distorting what they're presenting, omitting other important and relevant facts, etc.

In other words, I don't think it's necessarily simple to "stick to the facts" in this Information Age. We can't even agree 100% on what the facts are.
I've recently been impressed by the Bipartisan Policy Center but I don't really know much about them.
flyingpylon
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:04 am

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:39 pm

What we refer to as “facts” are actually:

data + interpretation + persuasion

So attempting to base a discussion on “facts” is unlikely to be fruitful, and basing a discussion on raw data is highly impractical.
User avatar
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Kbg » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:06 pm

Facts remain discernible, they really do you just have to know how to look for them.

Let’s run this real quick

Trump made a call to Ukraine

A whistleblower made a complaint about that call

Trump inquired about a Biden investigation during the phone call

These are facts. Both political parties acknowledge the above, there is no dispute about the above.

In this super basic outline this is where we depart from facts and begin the journey into spin.

If we had the time or inclination we could review public testimony and find where there are probable facts...the normal standard here is 2 or more people say the same thing about what happened in terms of what happened not their interpretations of what happened.

For example

The meeting started at 2pm

The meeting started at 215pm...fact the meeting started around 2pm

The president sounded ticked off

The president had a cordial conversation

Fact...the president had a conversation/tone of conversation unknown or disputed

Not saying the above is easy, but personally I usually don’t come to firm conclusions about anything I don’t feel I have a good handle on the facts.

So do I have a quasi opinion on the above, yes. But I fully believe I am at the end of the day uniformed and relying on mental heuristic shortcuts.
User avatar
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Kbg » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:08 pm

Facts remain discernible, they really do you just have to know how to look for them.

Let’s run this real quick

Trump made a call to Ukraine

A whistleblower made a complaint about that call

Trump inquired about a Biden investigation during the phone call

These are facts. Both political parties acknowledge the above, there is no dispute about the above.

In this super basic outline this is where we depart from facts and begin the journey into spin.

If we had the time or inclination we could review public testimony and find where there are probable facts...the normal standard here is 2 or more people say the same thing about what happened in terms of what happened not their interpretations of what happened.

For example

The meeting started at 2pm

The meeting started at 215pm...fact the meeting started around 2pm

The president sounded ticked off

The president had a cordial conversation

Fact...the president had a conversation/tone of conversation unknown or disputed

Not saying the above is easy, but personally I usually don’t come to firm conclusions about anything I don’t feel I have a good handle on the facts.

So do I have a quasi opinion on the above, yes. But I fully concede I am at the end of the day uninformed and relying on mental heuristic shortcuts.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:57 pm

The biggest problem here and in the US in general is that you all spend too much time and energy worrying about things you have no control over. It’s the opposite of why you like the PP.
Post Reply