The political re-alignment of our time

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:40 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 pm
1. Trade wars with China and Mexico, derailing our fragile economy (and the fragile world economy)
2. A policy of torture, perhaps even worse than what we saw under W ("much worse than water boarding")
3. Ban on muslims entering the U.S., which much like gun laws, simply results in only the criminal elements entering.  Steps like these erode religious freedom. Freedom only for religions we like isn't religious freedom.
4. Targeting non-combatants in war, deliberately.
5. Mass deportation and societal upheaval, with resultant police state.
6. Attacks on first amendment, constant retaliation against those who would merely offend him. 
7. National security degradation as a result of mental instability and resultant poor foreign policy decisions. Craziest hand ever near the nuclear button. 

A few more, that are more general in nature:
1. Lowers the national political discussion to a whole new (low) level.
2. Increase of anger and hatred among racial and economic groups within the U.S., due to irresponsible rhetoric and encouragement of anger and violence (see his rallies).  A general force for increased sadism in the country. 
3. Lowers the U.S. reputation in the world (giving a whole new meaning to the term "ugly American"). 

Those are a few.  There are probably many others.  What's worse, I see very little on the plus side to offset the negatives he'd bring. 
This post by Desert contains the highest percentage (by far) of correct predictions from any of these posts I've been reading from years ago....

Vinny
Which of those are you counting as correct?
Some 5500 years ago, before writing was invented to record it, the people of the city of Hamoukar, near rich copper mines, were subjected to the first known instance of urban warfare when an army from the city of Uruk attacked and fought their way through the streets, killing most everyone.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:05 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:40 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 pm
1. Trade wars with China and Mexico, derailing our fragile economy (and the fragile world economy)
2. A policy of torture, perhaps even worse than what we saw under W ("much worse than water boarding")
3. Ban on muslims entering the U.S., which much like gun laws, simply results in only the criminal elements entering.  Steps like these erode religious freedom. Freedom only for religions we like isn't religious freedom.
4. Targeting non-combatants in war, deliberately.
5. Mass deportation and societal upheaval, with resultant police state.
6. Attacks on first amendment, constant retaliation against those who would merely offend him. 
7. National security degradation as a result of mental instability and resultant poor foreign policy decisions. Craziest hand ever near the nuclear button. 

A few more, that are more general in nature:
1. Lowers the national political discussion to a whole new (low) level.
2. Increase of anger and hatred among racial and economic groups within the U.S., due to irresponsible rhetoric and encouragement of anger and violence (see his rallies).  A general force for increased sadism in the country. 
3. Lowers the U.S. reputation in the world (giving a whole new meaning to the term "ugly American"). 

Those are a few.  There are probably many others.  What's worse, I see very little on the plus side to offset the negatives he'd bring. 
This post by Desert contains the highest percentage (by far) of correct predictions from any of these posts I've been reading from years ago....

Vinny
Which of those are you counting as correct?
Going in order...

First list

1. Partly right -
3. Almost completely correct
6. Fairly correct
7. Correct

Second list

1. 100% correct
2. Mostly correct
3. 100% correct


Vinny
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:36 pm

#5 in the first list was also right on the money (of course heartless bastards don't see it and don't mind, but that doesn't make it any less true).
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by pugchief » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:36 pm
#5 in the first list was also right on the money (of course heartless bastards don't see it and don't mind, but that doesn't make it any less true).
Okay, I guess I'm a heartless bastard, so I'll bite.

Mass deportation of whom? You mean people who are here illegally? And that is somehow a bad thing?
If by societal upheaval you mean the left losing its collective mind over everything that doesn't fit their narrative, then yes.
And I can't speak for NM, but it isn't a police state where I live or anywhere else I know of in the US. The old Soviet Union was a police state. Please show me the similarities to any US city.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:12 pm

pugchief wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm
Okay, I guess I'm a heartless bastard, so I'll bite.

Mass deportation of whom? You mean people who are here illegally?
Yes.
pugchief wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm
And that is somehow a bad thing?
Yes.

Nearly all of the illegal immigrants who are being deported have children or family members who are citizens, or were brought to the USA as children themselves who are being punished for the misdeeds of their parents. Some of them arrived so young that they are 100% American in culture and know nothing of the land they are being sent to. Here's an example: a 41 year-old Iraqi man brought to the USA as a baby, and deported to Iraq last year. He died.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/j ... aoud-dead/

Make no mistake, the government murdered this man. They sent him alone into a foreign warzone where he didn't speak the language, didn't understand the culture, had no personal connections, and would not easily be able to receive needed medicine for a chronic condition. He predictably died soon thereafter. I wonder how many conservatives or libertarians leapt up in righteous outrage at this act of government murder? Probably not a lot. He was a low-quality person, I would have said to myself 5 years ago. A dangerous mentally ill career criminal with diabetes who was in the country illegally. Good riddance; he deserved it. With his death, the world's IQ and gene pool just improved by a little bit.

And thinking those thoughts would have made me a Heartless Bastard. Feeling this way about people is not a good thing. It does not make you tough and hard-nosed and capable of making the difficult choices that life demands. It makes you mean and unattractive and repellent to the everything that's good on this earth. When I was a Heartless Bastard, that's what happened to me. Slowly my world started to get darker and darker as I found that sources of light were no longer attracted to me, and that in fact my toxicity was pushing them away.

It's a bad state of mind to live in. Luckily, it's curable.
pugchief wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm
And I can't speak for NM, but it isn't a police state where I live or anywhere else I know of in the US. The old Soviet Union was a police state. Please show me the similarities to any US city.
If the whole "children in cages" thing didn't rattle you, then there's nothing I can write that will change your mind. All I can say is that I now believe there are ways to have a humane yet fairly choosy immigration policy/system. We don't have that and clearly that's by design, coming from the top. The system has been dysfunctional for decades, yet it's only in the Trump era that the order seems to have come down to make it as intentionally cruel as possible.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:28 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:12 pm
pugchief wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm
Okay, I guess I'm a heartless bastard, so I'll bite.

Mass deportation of whom? You mean people who are here illegally?
Yes.
pugchief wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm
And that is somehow a bad thing?
Yes.

Nearly all of the illegal immigrants who are being deported have children or family members who are citizens, or were brought to the USA as children themselves who are being punished for the misdeeds of their parents. Some of them arrived so young that they are 100% American in culture and know nothing of the land they are being sent to. Here's an example: a 41 year-old Iraqi man brought to the USA as a baby, and deported to Iraq last year: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/j ... aoud-dead/

Make no mistake, the government murdered this man. They sent him alone into a foreign warzone where he didn't speak the language, didn't understand the culture, had no personal connections, and would not easily be able to receive needed medicine for a chronic condition. He predictably died soon thereafter. I wonder how many conservatives or libertarians leapt up in righteous outrage at this act of government murder? Probably not a lot. He was a low-quality person, I would have said to myself 5 years ago. A dangerous mentally ill career criminal with diabetes who was in the country illegally. Good riddance; he deserved it. With his death, the world's IQ and gene pool just improved by a little bit.

And thinking those thoughts would have made me a Heartless Bastard. Feeling this way about people is not a good thing. It does not make you tough and hard-nosed and capable of making the difficult choices that life demands. It makes you mean and unattractive and repellent to the everything that's good on this earth. When I was a Heartless Bastard, that's what happened to me. Slowly my world started to get darker and darker as I found that sources of light were no longer attracted to me, and that in fact my toxicity was pushing them away.

It's a bad state of mind to live in. Luckily, it's curable.

pugchief wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:35 pm
And I can't speak for NM, but it isn't a police state where I live or anywhere else I know of in the US. The old Soviet Union was a police state. Please show me the similarities to any US city.
If the whole "children in cages" thing didn't rattle you, then there's nothing I can write that will change your mind. All I can say is that I now believe there are ways to have a humane yet fairly choosy immigration policy/system. We don't have that and clearly that's by design, coming from the top. The system has been dysfunctional for decades, yet it's only in the Trump era that the order seems to have come down to make it as intentionally cruel as possible.
Your comments about light and dark reminded me of Luke, Chapter 11. Particularly verses 33 - 36:

The Light in You
33 “No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. 35 Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light.”
Vocation - doing what God has given me to do for the sake of the other.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:32 pm

Yes, exactly. The light is so much better than the dark. We just need to give ourselves permission to go there.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by flyingpylon » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:50 pm

If the past 3-4 years have taught me anything (not to mention this thread), it’s that everyone we meet is living in “opposite world” on at least one topic. Once you realize that, it’s almost entertaining.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:10 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:12 pm

Make no mistake, the government murdered this man.
I presume his parents brought him here illegally when he was a baby. Make no mistake, his parents murdered him.

Laws have two purposes: punishment and deterrence.

If we don't send people home who came here illegally or were brought here illegally, then there is no deterrence effect. We are just rewarding people for breaking the laws. We could pass an amnesty law. Guess what? In another 20 years we would have to pass another one, because people would see that they get rewarded for breaking the laws.

I guess I'm a heartless bastard too.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by technovelist » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:13 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 pm
Desert wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:48 pm
Pointedstick wrote:
Desert wrote: The thing that does bother me is that the "solution" that the angry horde has chosen will likely cause a lot of harm to this country.  It's not hard to break things, to tear things down.  Like the wise man Colin Powell said to W before he went into Iraq, "If you break it, you own it."  Unfortunately, that's not exactly true, because now W doesn't own it, the American and Iraqi people own it.  Similarly, after Trump augers in (sooner or later), it won't be him that has to foot the cost, it will be Americans, including those of us who have done our best to point out the painfully obvious problems with this candidate.
I'm curious… what specifically do you fear that Trump is going to do to harm the country? Specifics, please.
Here are a few:
1. Trade wars with China and Mexico, derailing our fragile economy (and the fragile world economy)
2. A policy of torture, perhaps even worse than what we saw under W ("much worse than water boarding")
3. Ban on muslims entering the U.S., which much like gun laws, simply results in only the criminal elements entering.  Steps like these erode religious freedom. Freedom only for religions we like isn't religious freedom.
4. Targeting non-combatants in war, deliberately.
5. Mass deportation and societal upheaval, with resultant police state.
6. Attacks on first amendment, constant retaliation against those who would merely offend him. 
7. National security degradation as a result of mental instability and resultant poor foreign policy decisions. Craziest hand ever near the nuclear button. 

A few more, that are more general in nature:
1. Lowers the national political discussion to a whole new (low) level.
2. Increase of anger and hatred among racial and economic groups within the U.S., due to irresponsible rhetoric and encouragement of anger and violence (see his rallies).  A general force for increased sadism in the country. 
3. Lowers the U.S. reputation in the world (giving a whole new meaning to the term "ugly American"). 

Those are a few.  There are probably many others.  What's worse, I see very little on the plus side to offset the negatives he'd bring. 
This post by Desert contains the highest percentage (by far) of correct predictions from any of these posts I've been reading from years ago....

Vinny
That's funny, because I don't see any correct predictions in that list, at least not any that have been caused by Trump.
Yes, the level of political discussion has reached a new low, but that is largely caused by people afflicted with TDS from watching too much lamestream media.
Have you watched any of his rallies? I have, and I don't see any violence or incitement to violence.
All of the hateful rhetoric is on the left, against Trump ("literally Hitler") and his supporters ("Nazis" and "white supremacists").

As for the rest:
1. Trade wars with China and Mexico, derailing our fragile economy (and the fragile world economy)
Wrong.

2. A policy of torture, perhaps even worse than what we saw under W ("much worse than water boarding")
Wrong.

3. Ban on muslims entering the U.S., which much like gun laws, simply results in only the criminal elements entering. Steps like these erode religious freedom. Freedom only for religions we like isn't religious freedom.
Wrong.

4. Targeting non-combatants in war, deliberately.
Wrong.

5. Mass deportation and societal upheaval, with resultant police state.
Wrong.

6. Attacks on first amendment, constant retaliation against those who would merely offend him.
Wrong.

7. National security degradation as a result of mental instability and resultant poor foreign policy decisions. Craziest hand ever near the nuclear button.
Wrong.

1. Lowers the national political discussion to a whole new (low) level.
covered above

2. Increase of anger and hatred among racial and economic groups within the U.S., due to irresponsible rhetoric and encouragement of anger and violence (see his rallies). A general force for increased sadism in the country.
covered above

3. Lowers the U.S. reputation in the world (giving a whole new meaning to the term "ugly American").
See the protests in Iran and Hong Kong where Trump is their hero. Same goes for Israel.

So it looks like a score of zero for horrible events caused by Trump.
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by vnatale » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:43 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:50 pm
If the past 3-4 years have taught me anything (not to mention this thread), it’s that everyone we meet is living in “opposite world” on at least one topic. Once you realize that, it’s almost entertaining.
You've inspired me to put here a sentence I'd read earlier tonight that I told myself I'd like to memorize. Putting it here will be the first step in getting me to remember it.

It comes from another of James Rickards's excellent (and highly recommended) books - The Death of Money

"It is not surprising that the FOMC members are deeply divided between the contrasting views espoused by Stein and Yellen. Stein is no doubt correct that systemic risk is building up unseen in the banking system through off-balance-sheet transactions and that new bubbles are emerging. Yellen is undoubtedly right that the economy is fundamentally weak and needs all the policy support it can get to avoid outright recession and deflation. The fact that both sides in the debate are correct means both sides are also incorrect to the extent that they fail to incorporate their opponents’ valid points in their own views."

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: The political re-alignment of our time

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:50 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:10 pm
Laws have two purposes: punishment and deterrence.

If we don't send people home who came here illegally or were brought here illegally, then there is no deterrence effect. We are just rewarding people for breaking the laws. We could pass an amnesty law. Guess what? In another 20 years we would have to pass another one, because people would see that they get rewarded for breaking the laws.

I guess I'm a heartless bastard too.
This attitude has a logical conclusion: the more publicly cruel the government behaves towards lawbreakers, the greater the deterrent effect. So let's separate children from their illegally-immigrating parents at the border and keep them in such inhumane conditions that five of those children have since died. That's sure to send a message! All in the name of making the country safe for libertarianism for those with citizenship, right?
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