Permanent cookware

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Permanent cookware

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:28 pm

All right, let's figure out what we should cook with. Here are the major contenders for cooking surfaces and their traits:

Cast iron
Pros: often extremely cheap, very durable, will last forever, nonstick with care, use, and time
Cons: may leach excessive quantities of iron into food, particularly if you're cooking anything acidic

Austenitic 18/10 stainless steel
Pros: very durable, will last forever
Cons: may leach excessive quantities of nickel into food, particularly if t's a lower-quality steel and you're cooking acidic food

Ferritic 18/0 stainless steel
Pros: extremely cheap, will probably not leach anything dangerous into the food
Cons: may rust, probably not dishwasher safe in the long-term

Enameled cast iron
Pros: reasonably non-stick, inert surface is totally safe and will not leach anything into food
Cons: enamel layer is fragile and irreparable once damaged, can be very expensive

PTFE-based nonstick coating
Pros: extremely cheap, non-stick
Cons: poisonous, doesn't last very long

Ceramic nonstick coating
Pros: non-stick
Cons: doesn't last long

Clay pot/ceramic/glass
Pros: inert surface is totally safe and will not leach anything into food
Cons: very fragile, often not oven-safe, can't use with induction heating

Enameled steel
Pros: extremely cheap, reasonably non-stick, inert surface is totally safe and will not leach anything into food
Cons: enamel layer is fragile and irreparable once damaged

Personally I think the all-around winner is enameled steel. This stuff is incredibly durable as enameled cookware goes, and its lightweight and cheap, too. I like Granite Ware, and the stuff that's made in the USA is near indestructible. Their stuff that's made in Mexico is much worse and you can find a lot of bad reviews so don't get that stuff--you can find out online the country of origin. The big disadvantages I can see are that nobody makes tri-ply enameled steel cookware, so there are issues with uneven heating, and there also don't seem to be any skillets with this construction and finish. But I love this stuff. The USA-made ones are incredibly tough. Last year, my son threw an 8 quart Granite Ware stock pot on the tile kitchen floor several times before we could stop him and the floor came out worse for wear than the stock pot. We still use it, despite a few chips on the underside from the episode. And the great thing is that once we need to replace it, the total cost will be like 15 bucks. Once your Le Creuset gets chipped, you'll send it back to them for service and they'll tell you it's your fault but they're happy to sell you a new one for $200. What a joke.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:14 am

I do not think PTFE is poisonous, it is a very inert substance.  One of the intermediates in its manufacture, PFOA, allegedly has health issues but PFOA is not in the final product.  PTFE breaks down and emits fumes at about 250 C or 482 F, higher than most things one would cook; just do not leave an empty pan on the burner.  I'm not particularly a fan of Teflon cookware (I prefer cast iron), but I have no concerns about Teflon if used properly.  Here is an MSDS for PTFE:  http://www.skcinc.com/catalog/pdf/instructions/1792.pdf

Here is some info on "myths", but it is issued by the manufacturer - I'll leave it to you to decide if they are truthful.  Click on the links to read answers to the myths.  https://www.chemours.com/Teflon/en_US/p ... myths.html

... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:03 am

I've had PTFE break down on me at lower temperatures than that. I used to run 3D printers with PTFE insulators in a heat chamber that reached a maximum of 230c (verified with an IR thermometer). At that temperature, the PTFE would smoke and give off a pronounced odor. After that I replaced the component with one made entirely of stainless steel and never had a problem again. And the stuff flakes off into your food eventually. Regardless of how inert it is, the MSDS acknowledges that eating it "may cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea." And then of course you need to buy a new one. No thanks.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:26 am

Also, it is very easy to exceed 500 degrees with an empty pan on an electric stove. We have an infrared thermometer and my wife saw almost that temperature with the burner on about 60% power.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:28 am

Pointedstick wrote: I've had PTFE break down on me at lower temperatures than that. I used to run 3D printers with PTFE insulators in a heat chamber that reached a maximum of 230c (verified with an IR thermometer). At that temperature, the PTFE would smoke and give off a pronounced odor. After that I replaced the component with one made entirely of stainless steel and never had a problem again. And the stuff flakes off into your food eventually. Regardless of how inert it is, the MSDS acknowledges that eating it "may cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea." And then of course you need to buy a new one. No thanks.
So do beans, broccoli, turnips, and beer if consumed in sufficient quantity.  Sorry, could not resist.  ;D  Key word in the MSDS is "may" - total lawyer talk by skcinc to cya (I used to be involved in writing MSDSs and took several OSHA classes as well as a bunch of internal company classes on safety, respiratory issues, personal protective equipment, occupational health, etc. and taught them for a while.)

Sorry about your printer issues and glad you had a successful resolution.  Perhaps the part was not 100% PTFE?  And, PTFE really is inert for the acceptable use temperatures recommended.  I have a good friend who had a hernia repair that used the material in the implant.  He is still alive but his internal body temperature has not exceeded 250 C that I'm aware of.  Hmmmm, I wonder if there will be fluoro compound - HF is especially nasty - scrubbers on the vents if he decides to be cremated?  Better not take a chance so I'll make sure I never move downwind of a crematory.  :)  And then again, you may wish to discount my views because I still believe DDT benefits outweigh the risks; I like people better than pelicans even though I think they are awesome creatures.  ;)

... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:32 am

Libertarian666 wrote: Also, it is very easy to exceed 500 degrees with an empty pan on an electric stove. We have an infrared thermometer and my wife saw almost that temperature with the burner on about 60% power.
I totally agree with that.  See https://www.chemours.com/Teflon/en_US/p ... .html  See "suggested use" and "tips" toward the bottom of the link.  The manufacturer agrees with you too.

... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:44 am

If we're talking about a "benefits vs risks" situation, I become very risk-averse when it comes to food and things used to prepare it, which are used every day and where the result actually goes into my body. I'm very willing to forgo the small benefits of a good nonstick surface in exchange for less contact with fluoride-based chemicals. I don't have a lot of trust in the chemical industry, especially not when it comes to organic chemistry.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:59 am

I inherited some Copco Cookware pans (from Denmark) that is cast iron covered with white porcelain enamel. They were purchased decades ago and never been used, but hadn't ever touched it because I assumed it was too fragile. Will probably start using it for my morning eggs!

[align=center]Image[/align]
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Benko » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:01 am

So if you aren't making spagetti sauce, or other acidic stuff (what else that people commonly eat is acidic?) perhaps the best is just good ol stainless steel?

Also, what about those clear pots I remember seeing.  I don't know if they are made of pyrex, etc.  Take time to heat up, but are those safer?
It was good being the party of Robin Hood. Until they morphed into the Sheriff of Nottingham
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:08 am

Benko wrote: So if you aren't making spagetti sauce, or other acidic stuff (what else that people commonly eat is acidic?) perhaps the best is just good ol stainless steel?
I think despite nickel, most experts aren't particularly worried about stainless. I'm still going to use stainless for the simple fact that my supposedly health threatening Austenitic All-Clad passes the vinegar taste test.

Q&A: How Can You Tell if Stainless Steel is Good Quality?(Try this test!)

If my stainless were so bad you'd think it would impart a nickel taste into the vinegar. I know nothing of metallurgy but I suspect the alloy in All-Clad is somehow helping to keep the nickel relatively stable.
What is the healthiest type of cookware?

"What some cite as a concern for stainless steel is the leaching of nickel, a potentially toxic metal fairly high up on the ATSDR list of priority toxins. Yet, because the alloy (combination of metals used) in stainless steel cookware is more stable than other cookware materials you are less likely to have any leaching, of any metal, including nickel."
Seems like the concern is mostly allergy-based, but some suggest that nickel may be a carcinogen in high doses (which seems unlikely from a pan).

Having said that, I will probably dig out my Copco enamel (above) and begin using it since I have it. It's so pretty though, I'd hate to tarnish it. :)
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:10 am

Pointedstick wrote: If we're talking about a "benefits vs risks" situation, I become very risk-averse when it comes to food and things used to prepare it, which are used every day and where the result actually goes into my body. I'm very willing to forgo the small benefits of a good nonstick surface in exchange for less contact with fluoride-based chemicals. I don't have a lot of trust in the chemical industry, especially not when it comes to organic chemistry.
Do you use fluoride free toothpaste or drink fluoride free water, or do you prefer the dentist drill? (warning - lots of organic chemicals into your body at the dentist office if you have a low pain tolerance)  I'd like to see your list of items in daily use not touched in some way by organic chemistry.  Basically, our bodies are just a very elaborate chemical factory complete with some very interesting plumbing.  ;)  Rhetorical statement - no need to reply.  I think it is a really short list if you stop to think about it.  And, everything (almost?) has risks and benefits.  The problem comes when things are perceived as  "my risk and your benefit".  How about GMOs?  Against them?  I'd offer you have two genetically modified organisms that you helped spawn very near you at the moment - made up of a gazillion organic chemicals that all started by blending chromosomes.  ;D  FWIW, I'm pretty much with you ... I perhaps have a slightly more tolerant view of food and chemicals than you since I'm a chemical engineer - and old (one data point that putting all those nasties into my body over a long period of time has not signifcantly damaged me, well, not yet.)

... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:16 am

I do drink fluoride-free water and I don't use toothpaste at all, in fact, and never have. My teeth are fine. To my knowledge I've never had a real cavity. My last dentist found and filled all kinds of cavities that made me worry my teeth were falling apart, but my current dentist thinks she was crazy and none of them required fillings at all. He's had to redo her sloppy work. So to date all the dental work I've had has been as a result of malpractice and repairing the damage that was done in the process.

I get your point, and I'm not a chemophobe. But I do think that while the benefits of organic chemistry are undoubtedly immense, the hidden drawbacks are far understated, if only because humans have no long historical experience with organic chemistry products, so we have no idea how to treat them safely. Can they be exposed to high temperature? How high? Will they degrade in sunlight? When they do degrade, are the products hazardous or not? To what and to whom? You need to practically be an organic chemist yourself to answer these questions.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:27 am

Mountaineer wrote:FWIW, I'm pretty much with you ... I perhaps have a slightly more tolerant view of food and chemicals than you since I'm a chemical engineer - and old
I agree. Most awful chemicals in low doses are actually hormetic. Edward Calabrese has some amazing lectures on how low exposure to harmful chemicals and compounds can provoke strong and healthy responses that make us less fragile and extend life.

This is actually related to why I left the forum. I found that I was focussing too much on things that really didn't matter that much—we're supposed to be exposed to some things that are supposedly "bad" for us. And showing up to post here again just led to a repeat of similar focussing on things that I probably don't need to worry about that much. :)

It's been said that people who obsess about their health don't live that long because they end up inadvertently doing things that undermine their health, like avoiding what would otherwise be hormetic stresses.
Aging intervention, prevention, and therapy through hormesis.

The phenomenon of hormesis is represented by mild stress-induced stimulation of maintenance and repair pathways resulting in beneficial effects for the cells and organisms. Anti-aging and life-prolonging effects of a wide variety of the so-called stressors, such as pro-oxidants, aldehydes, calorie restriction, irradiation, heat shock, and hypergravity, have been reported. Molecular mechanisms of hormesis due to different stresses are yet to be elucidated, but there are indications that relatively small individual hormetic effects become biologically amplified resulting in the collective significant improvement of cellular and organismic functions and survival. Accepting that some important issues with respect to establishing the optimal hormetic conditions still need to be resolved by future research, hormesis appears to be a promising and effective approach for modulating aging, for preventing or delaying the onset of age-related diseases, and for improving quality of life in old age.
See also Josh Mitteldorf:
Anti-aging, oxymorons, and antioxi-morons

The natural foods industry is deep into the anti-aging business, and it's all based on two lies--one about pesticides and toxins, the other about anti-oxidants. Neither toxins nor oxidation are the reason that we get old, and we can't live longer by eating less toxins or more anti-oxidants. In fact, toxins in small quantities stimulate the body's longevity pathways, and anti-oxidants can nullify the very real anti-aging benefits of exercise.

People who are fanatical about clean air and organic food don't live to extraordinary ages. Animals raised in a super-clean, toxin- and pathogen-free environment actually die earlier than animals raised with bugs and dirt.
So, I really don't have the patience anymore to worry about this stuff. The stainless is probably healthier for its toxic hormetic health benefits. :)

Having said that, I decline the fluoride treatments at the dentist—that stuff plugs up your pineal gland. lol
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
User avatar
l82start
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:51 pm

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by l82start » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:35 am

i think i will stick with the cast iron, its well seasoned, seldom used for acidic dishes, and when (out of curiosity inspired by the FEAR IRON thread) i had my doc check ferrite levels mine were normal.. in-spite of my cast iron pans and love of of red meat....
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:38 am

Gumby wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:FWIW, I'm pretty much with you ... I perhaps have a slightly more tolerant view of food and chemicals than you since I'm a chemical engineer - and old
I agree. Most awful chemicals in low doses are actually hormetic. Edward Calabrese has some amazing lectures on how low exposure to harmful chemicals and compounds can provoke strong and healthy responses that make us less fragile and extend life.

This is actually related to why I left the forum. I found that I was focussing too much on things that really didn't matter that much—we're supposed to be exposed to some things that are supposedly "bad" for us. And showing up to post here again just led to a repeat of similar focussing on things that I probably don't need to worry about that much. :)

It's been said that people who obsess about their health don't live that long because they end up inadvertently doing things that undermine their health, like avoiding what would otherwise be hormetic stresses.
Aging intervention, prevention, and therapy through hormesis.

The phenomenon of hormesis is represented by mild stress-induced stimulation of maintenance and repair pathways resulting in beneficial effects for the cells and organisms. Anti-aging and life-prolonging effects of a wide variety of the so-called stressors, such as pro-oxidants, aldehydes, calorie restriction, irradiation, heat shock, and hypergravity, have been reported. Molecular mechanisms of hormesis due to different stresses are yet to be elucidated, but there are indications that relatively small individual hormetic effects become biologically amplified resulting in the collective significant improvement of cellular and organismic functions and survival. Accepting that some important issues with respect to establishing the optimal hormetic conditions still need to be resolved by future research, hormesis appears to be a promising and effective approach for modulating aging, for preventing or delaying the onset of age-related diseases, and for improving quality of life in old age.
See also Josh Mitteldorf:
Anti-aging, oxymorons, and antioxi-morons

The natural foods industry is deep into the anti-aging business, and it's all based on two lies--one about pesticides and toxins, the other about anti-oxidants. Neither toxins nor oxidation are the reason that we get old, and we can't live longer by eating less toxins or more anti-oxidants. In fact, toxins in small quantities stimulate the body's longevity pathways, and anti-oxidants can nullify the very real anti-aging benefits of exercise.

People who are fanatical about clean air and organic food don't live to extraordinary ages. Animals raised in a super-clean, toxin- and pathogen-free environment actually die earlier than animals raised with bugs and dirt.
So, I really don't have the patience anymore to worry about this stuff. The stainless is probably healthier for its toxic hormetic health benefits. :)

Having said that, I decline the fluoride treatments at the dentist—that stuff plugs up your pineal gland. lol
Interesting.  I was not aware of those studies.  It fits with what kids did when I was growing up:  Play in the dirt, be dirt covered when eating a cookie, drink untested for anything well water, etc.  My wife used to swim in a creek when she was a kid that had raw sewage going into it upstream.  My wife to this day almost never gets sick.  I kid her that she probably has the strongest imune system of anyone I know.  No one I knew had asthma.  Childhood diseases were not feared, and rarely treated by a doctor.  If I were out playing all day, I might go hours after getting a cut without washing it.  Almost no one I knew growing up was treated with antibiotics.  We indeed have become a paranoid society of wimps.  :'(

Edit:  I just realized I'm responsible for major thread drift.  I apologize.  I'll stop, and now cooking enthusiasts,  ...... back to the title subject. 

... M
Last edited by Mountaineer on Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:45 am

l82start wrote: i think i will stick with the cast iron, its well seasoned, seldom used for acidic dishes, and when (out of curiosity inspired by the FEAR IRON thread) i had my doc check ferrite levels mine were normal.. in-spite of my cast iron pans and love of of red meat....
Interesting. Everyone is different. Just be aware that "normal" is based on very old recommendations and most doctors are not aware of the recent research on ferritin that implies the "normal" is too high.

When I was on my red meat kick and using cast iron pans, my doc tested my ferritin and it came back "normal" at 160, which indeed is "normal" for my age. The doc was happy with that. The only problem is that the official "normal" for ferritin is a huge range: 24 to 336 nanograms per milliliter in men. Recent research is beginning to suggest (nobody knows for sure) that it's safest to keep ferritin below 80, with the risk of many chronic diseases increasing above 100. The official guidelines haven't been updated in decades because more research is needed. I got my ferritin down to 80 with IP-6, then I gave blood and now need to test again soon.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
User avatar
l82start
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:51 pm

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by l82start » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:59 am

Gumby wrote:
l82start wrote: i think i will stick with the cast iron, its well seasoned, seldom used for acidic dishes, and when (out of curiosity inspired by the FEAR IRON thread) i had my doc check ferrite levels mine were normal.. in-spite of my cast iron pans and love of of red meat....
Interesting. Everyone is different. Just be aware that "normal" is based on very old recommendations and most doctors are not aware of the recent research on ferritin that implies the "normal" is too high.

When I was on my red meat kick and using cast iron pans, my doc tested my ferritin and it came back "normal" at 160, which indeed is "normal" for my age. The doc was happy with that. The only problem is that the official "normal" for ferritin is a range is 24 to 336 nanograms per milliliter in men. Recent research is beginning to suggest (nobody knows for sure) that it's safest to keep ferritin below 80, with the risk of many chronic diseases increasing above 100. The official guidelines haven't been updated in decades because more research is needed. I got my ferritin down to 80, gave blood and need to test again soon.
  so what are the symptoms of ferritin being a problem ?  i tested at a bit over halfway between top and bottom in the "old" normal range, as far as i can tell i have no issues, i don't tend toward sensitivity, and i have always taken the hormesis approach to life over the OCD, live in a bubble everything is bad approach...
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:15 pm

l82start wrote:
Gumby wrote:
l82start wrote: i think i will stick with the cast iron, its well seasoned, seldom used for acidic dishes, and when (out of curiosity inspired by the FEAR IRON thread) i had my doc check ferrite levels mine were normal.. in-spite of my cast iron pans and love of of red meat....
Interesting. Everyone is different. Just be aware that "normal" is based on very old recommendations and most doctors are not aware of the recent research on ferritin that implies the "normal" is too high.

When I was on my red meat kick and using cast iron pans, my doc tested my ferritin and it came back "normal" at 160, which indeed is "normal" for my age. The doc was happy with that. The only problem is that the official "normal" for ferritin is a range is 24 to 336 nanograms per milliliter in men. Recent research is beginning to suggest (nobody knows for sure) that it's safest to keep ferritin below 80, with the risk of many chronic diseases increasing above 100. The official guidelines haven't been updated in decades because more research is needed. I got my ferritin down to 80, gave blood and need to test again soon.
  so what are the symptoms of ferritin being a problem ?  i tested at a bit over halfway between top and bottom in the "old" normal range, as far as i can tell i have no issues, i don't tend toward sensitivity, and i have always taken the hormesis approach to life over the OCD, live in a bubble everything is bad approach...
The ferritin has no purpose other than as a backup source of iron you can harness if you need it. Some research suggests that ferritin is what the body makes when iron leaks out of damaged cells. These days we have easy access to meat, so there's no need to carry so much excess iron around. Think of the ferritin as glass containers around iron. The ferritin is keeping the iron safe from doing damage, so long as the ferritin doesn't break open or get stuck in tissues. The point being, you don't need to be carrying so much breakable glass around with you on a daily basis—better to get rid of the fragile glass containers so that if something does go wrong, the mess is easier to clean up.

In other words, you may not have a problem with old "normal" ferritin range, but the statistics suggest that with rising ferritin you're more likely to have a problem as you age and it suggests your body is unable to clean up the mess and oxidative stress like it used to be able to.

By reducing your iron, you're just offloading the potential for harm when things go wrong.

Keep in mind that your body's ability to manage iron depends on a balance of minerals.

[align=center]Image[/align]

If you're relatively young the body can take some steps and make tradeoffs to overcome some mineral imbalances, but as you age you eventually lose the ability to overcome the deficit. So, it seems to be a slow and silent problem that you wouldn't notice until later in life. The brain has similar issues as well with iron overload.

It's easy to maintain mineral balance with a variety of whole foods and whole grains (perhaps keeping soil depletion in mind), but the larger point here being that having too much iron requires even more minerals counterbalancing like manganese and copper, which are found in balance with each other in whole foods—since Mn and Cu are responsible for our most powerful endogenous antioxidants. If you're high iron and low Mn. If your zinc is too high (steak is high in zinc) this can antagonize copper and sway the balance of minerals to lower antioxidant status. Wheat happens to have plenty of Mn and the Fe is thankfully bound to phytates (also known to be an antioxidant).

Again, it's about balance. Eating lots of steak is not balanced because it's not a whole food and the Mn is in the tripe and the calcium is in the bones, etc. And while we have mechanisms to excrete excess Mn and Cu, we don't have any mechanisms to excrete excess iron. So it builds up and builds up in tissues until the glass starts to break. Iron is known to feed cancer cells and pathogens and the body will actually stuff iron into tissues to keep the blood iron levels low when the body senses that something is trying to steal the iron. So, ferritin is just an estimate of total body iron, but it can actually be low when a problem is apparent (though you would know this from other tests).
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:26 pm

I will also say that bound iron does not apparently do damage in the body. It's the free iron that's the problem. When the iron is stripped or released from its binding compound, that's when the problems happen. A healthy body makes ferritin to bind free iron (why temporarily rising ferritin levels may be normal when excess iron is getting beneficially removed from tissues). But, ferritin can break when damaged and pathogens are known to steal iron from ferritin for example. Phytic acid is known to have a strong affinity for binding with iron, which is believed to be a reason why grains and beans with phytic acid are beneficial with antioxidant and anti-cancer properties, despite the idea that phytic acid is an "anti-nutrient." So, again, it's about binding up that iron and making it inaccessible to problems. Getting rid of excess iron is just an easy way to take it out of the equation.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
dragoncar
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1111
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:23 pm

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by dragoncar » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:05 pm

Pointedstick wrote: I do drink fluoride-free water and I don't use toothpaste at all, in fact, and never have. My teeth are fine. To my knowledge I've never had a real cavity. My last dentist found and filled all kinds of cavities that made me worry my teeth were falling apart, but my current dentist thinks she was crazy and none of them required fillings at all. He's had to redo her sloppy work. So to date all the dental work I've had has been as a result of malpractice and repairing the damage that was done in the process.

I get your point, and I'm not a chemophobe. But I do think that while the benefits of organic chemistry are undoubtedly immense, the hidden drawbacks are far understated, if only because humans have no long historical experience with organic chemistry products, so we have no idea how to treat them safely. Can they be exposed to high temperature? How high? Will they degrade in sunlight? When they do degrade, are the products hazardous or not? To what and to whom? You need to practically be an organic chemist yourself to answer these questions.
From my osmotic dental knowledge, I'd guess you had micro cavities.  These do not need to be drilled because they can be repaired via remineralization.  But remineralization relies on flouride.  So maybe your first dentist knew you avoided flouride and thus drilled.  Or maybe he's one of the unethical ones (I've heard these cases too).

But surely you are exposed to flouride every time you travel to a fluoridating city or eat at a restaurant, public drinking fountain, etc.

I've been pretty happy with my ceramic set, but after a little over a year some pieces are losing their nonstick.  I suspect part of it is from my wife toasting things dry at high heat.  I prefer the cast iron for that.  Most acidic things are cooked in a stainless steel pressure cooker, and there really isn't an alternative (aluminum?).  I've also got an expensive all clad set that I rarely use because I don't like to clean them... What a waste.  I have an enameled Dutch oven that doesn't seem any more nonstick than the stainless.
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:19 pm

dragoncar wrote:But remineralization relies on fluoride.
I don't believe that's true. It may be that fluoride can help with remineralization, but there are many examples of primitive cultures all over the world that had perfect teeth and virtually no cavities from vitamin-rich and mineral-rich diets alone.

It's not like tooth enamel is mainly composed of fluoride. As Dr. Price points out throughout his book, the remineralization, via saliva, he observed took place from the whole foods that is eaten.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:23 pm

l82start wrote:i tested at a bit over halfway between top and bottom in the "old" normal range, as far as i can tell i have no issues, i don't tend toward sensitivity, and i have always taken the hormesis approach to life over the OCD, live in a bubble everything is bad approach...
Btw, you've implied you're around 170. I know you don't enjoy the OCD bubble approach, but you should know that there is a fair amount of research linking "normal" subclinical hemochromatosis to diabetes. Major health organizations have yet to rule that this subclinical hemochromatosis is a "cause" of diabetes but the evidence is piling up each year. It's pretty shocking if you look into it.

If you believe in hormesis, then bloodletting is a good exercise. Anyhow, if you do take the time to research ferritin you'll find that recent evidence points to the low end of normal being safest.

For instance...
Little-Known Secrets About Optimal Iron Levels

The healthy range of serum ferritin lies between 20 and 80 ng/ml. Below 20, you are iron deficient, and above 80, you have an iron surplus. Ferritin levels can go really high. I’ve seen levels over 1,000, but anything over 80 is likely going to be a problem. The ideal range is 40-60 ng/ml
I know Mercola doesn't get everything right, but in this case he is actually summarizing what a lot of recent research is suggesting.

For instance...
Iron and Diabetes Revisited

The pathological effects of iron accumulation in tissue in iron-overload states are well known. What is new in the field is the recognition that iron plays an important role in the pathophysiology of disease in the absence of systemic iron overload...Thus, even at “normal” levels, iron exerts a detrimental effect on Beta-cell function that may be reversible with removal of iron, either through phlebotomy or possibly iron chelation.
It really doesn't take much effort to find studies associating "subclinical hemochromatosis" to diabetes. Nor does it take much effort to find intake of iron linked with diabetes. Nor does it take much effort to find evidence that bloodletting/phlebotomy reduces or reverses these problems.

So, I guess you could say the "symptoms" of subclinical hemochromatosis are mainly diabetes, but actually there is research linking iron to most diseases of civilization if you look.

I know you don't want to live in an OCD bubble, but I think most OCD types would say this one is worth paying attention to more than most. Anthony Colpo has some good advice on how to get your iron down to low normal.

In my experience, coming down from 160 wasn't possible from bloodletting only once every 50-something days. I think I went down only 10 points when I was ready to donate again (you go down maybe 20-40 initially but then you start accumulating iron again). I took 800mg/day of IP6 for ~3 months of IP-6 to get down to 80. As Colpo points out though, everyone is different, so you need to test. Your doctor probably won't keep testing you if he thinks you're "normal" so if this is something you want to take seriously, it requires getting your own tests online (they're pretty cheap). Colpo explains the routine. Good luck.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
dragoncar
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1111
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:23 pm

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by dragoncar » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:19 pm

Gumby wrote:
dragoncar wrote:But remineralization relies on fluoride.
I don't believe that's true. It may be that fluoride can help with remineralization, but there are many examples of primitive cultures all over the world that had perfect teeth and virtually no cavities from vitamin-rich and mineral-rich diets alone.

It's not like tooth enamel is mainly composed of fluoride. As Dr. Price points out throughout his book, the remineralization, via saliva, he observed took place from the whole foods that is eaten.
I mean the remineralization process suggested by dentists.  Sure there are other ways, but if you already have demineralization, your diet is not up to snuff to avoid cavities.
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:44 pm

Gumby wrote: I inherited some Copco Cookware pans (from Denmark) that is cast iron covered with white porcelain enamel. They were purchased decades ago and never been used, but hadn't ever touched it because I assumed it was too fragile. Will probably start using it for my morning eggs!

[align=center]Image[/align]
Oh my god, Gumby.  That is is beautiful.

I would switch from raw to cooking my eggs with those pans - even if they gave me cancer.
Gumby
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4012
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:38 pm

Mark Leavy wrote: Oh my god, Gumby.  That is is beautiful.

I would switch from raw to cooking my eggs with those pans - even if they gave me cancer.
Yeah.. I'm kinda sad I left them in the draw this long. I just dusted them off this evening and cooked some sweet italian sausage in the bigger one. The white porcelain got a bit grungy and I just assumed that was the last time it would ever look so good. Gently washed it and the grime slipped right off. I'm not holding my breath but I hope it performs that well years from now. Can't believe I left these things gather dust for so long.

They don't heat up quickly like stainless does, and the instructions tell you to only use low heat and not to let the temperature change too quickly, but so far I'm happy.

Looks like Copco only make kettles now. So, I guess the pots and pans are a collectors item.

Take a look on eBay for vintage white porcelain enamel cast iron Copco. They aren't terribly expensive.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
Post Reply