Thoughts on gay rights?

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Fred
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Fred » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:39 am

jafs wrote: Homophobia isn't an aversion to being homosexual, which might be natural.

It's a dislike of or prejudice against people who are homosexual.
Actually, I think it's like the word "racist". It's a word used to paint someone you disagree with as a bad person who's opinions shouldn't be listened to.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:12 pm

BearBones wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I am a Lutheran.  So, I will give my answers in terms of the doctrine ot Two Kingdoms, Two Realms, and God rules both Kingdoms.
I think that most would respect that. I do. Except for what constitutes "sin" (unless you mean in its etymologic sense, "missing the mark" as opposed to evil or wrong).

But to make your belief policy is to create a theocracy. This country was founded on religious freedom and a separation of church and state. Are you saying you would change that?
I define sin as transgression against God's Law.  Sin is a Kingdom of the Right term. 

I am 100% for separation of church and state.  The state's role is to permit people to worship in their chosen religion with no interference from the state, even if that religion is secular, i.e. worship of the creature instead of the Creator.  The Kingdom of the Right will function in any type of Kingdom of the Left structure - democracy, republic, monarchy, theocracy, dictatorship, communist, etc., whether man would say it is moral or immoral.  The Kingdom of the Left is a construct of sinful man; the Kingdom of Right is a construct of the almighty God of righteousness, forgiveness, mercy, and justice.

... M
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:12 pm

https://youtu.be/79KzZ0YqLvo?t=1m15s

I've known a lot of gay people. Most of them are totally normal, average people who just want to quietly live their lives, same as you. A small number of them are exhibitionist rabble-rousers who give the rest a bad name to conservatives. I definitely take the libertarian position on marriage that it should be none of the state's business, but if the state is going to be involved, there's no reason not to allow any consenting adults to make use of of the institution.

Now that gay marriage is now the law of the land everywhere, I see no evidence that marriage is crumbling as a result. Mine is certainly fine. The chicken little opposition now has no clothes, and the whole thing looks like a mountain made out of a molehill, so it's back to the drawing board if they can't jump on the bandwagon.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:50 pm

Pro gay rights, 100%.
When I was a teenager (long time ago), I thought the idea of same-sex couples raising children was a bit weird. None of my business, though, and it's increasingly common.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:36 pm

dualstow wrote: Pro gay rights, 100%.
When I was a teenager (long time ago), I thought the idea of same-sex couples raising children was a bit weird. None of my business, though, and it's increasingly common.
How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:45 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
BearBones wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I am a Lutheran.  So, I will give my answers in terms of the doctrine ot Two Kingdoms, Two Realms, and God rules both Kingdoms.
I think that most would respect that. I do. Except for what constitutes "sin" (unless you mean in its etymologic sense, "missing the mark" as opposed to evil or wrong).

But to make your belief policy is to create a theocracy. This country was founded on religious freedom and a separation of church and state. Are you saying you would change that?
I define sin as transgression against God's Law.  Sin is a Kingdom of the Right term. 

I am 100% for separation of church and state.  The state's role is to permit people to worship in their chosen religion with no interference from the state, even if that religion is secular, i.e. worship of the creature instead of the Creator.  The Kingdom of the Right will function in any type of Kingdom of the Left structure - democracy, republic, monarchy, theocracy, dictatorship, communist, etc., whether man would say it is moral or immoral.  The Kingdom of the Left is a construct of sinful man; the Kingdom of Right is a construct of the almighty God of righteousness, forgiveness, mercy, and justice.

... M
This is an interesting read that I just saw.  Separation of church and state by FDR?  Ha!

http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/20/doe ... the-state/

Also, note the reference to Martin Luther and his ideas which were subsequently incorporated into John Locke's views:

The Protestant Reformation is seminal in many of the ideas leading toward the American Revolution. Martin Luther’s interpretation of justification by faith in the book of Romans decoupled the traditional structures of the Roman Catholic Church from the formal power of the state. Ultimately, this would give rise to John Locke’s idea of religious toleration.

... M
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:53 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
dualstow wrote: Pro gay rights, 100%.
When I was a teenager (long time ago), I thought the idea of same-sex couples raising children was a bit weird. None of my business, though, and it's increasingly common.
How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:01 pm

jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
dualstow wrote: Pro gay rights, 100%.
When I was a teenager (long time ago), I thought the idea of same-sex couples raising children was a bit weird. None of my business, though, and it's increasingly common.
How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
Then what is the issue?  We are all subject to the same laws and regulations of our country, state, county, city.  Don't like the current situation?  Change the laws within the boundaries of the relevant Constitution (or Amend the Constitution).

.. M
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:14 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
BearBones wrote: As far as marriage, what it the justification for discrimination (taxes, visitation, etc) if not religious beliefs?
Based on something like the ability to procreate instead of love? If it is it guised in "the best interest of the state," then at least be consistent. No marriage if older than, say, 50. Or if you are infertile in any way.
As far as adopting, should be also be rational and consistent. I feel the same about nuclear families, but should we outlaw divorce, which is more common? And probably more destructive, since it often involves anger and confusion for a child (I'm divorced, and I think it hurt my children).
I am a Lutheran.  So, I will give my answers in terms of the doctrine ot Two Kingdoms, Two Realms, and God rules both Kingdoms.

Kingdom of the Left (a.k.a. Civil Kingdom)
The purpose of this Kingdom is to promote order, reduce chaos, so man is free to worship God and love neighbor.
I think all people should be treated kindly, lovingly, and with respect - regardless of sexual orientation, skin color, economic status, or religion.
I think the nuclear family with a father and a mother who remain together for life in a loving relationship is the best place to raise children.
I think societies based on the nuclear family have the greatest potential for being long lasting and thus are the most stable environment.
In this Kingdom, all sins are not equal - i.e. murder is worse than shoplifting.

Kingdom of the Right (a.k.a. Kingdom of God)
A purpose of this Kingdom is to show us how to have eternal life, unseparated from God.
Homosexuality is a sin.  It does not matter if born that way (a manifestation of original sin) or if chosen (actual sin).
All sins should be acknowledged for what they are - call a thing what it is.
In God's eyes, all sins are not condoned and are equal as they separate us from God.
All sins should be repented of, then know that God forgives us for Jesus' sake.  Repentance means turning away from sin.
In this Kingdom, all who believe in the promises of God are forgiven and saved eternally.

... Mountaineer
So Mountaineer, you believe that people who are born homosexual should deny practicing it, just as a married person may view lust outside of marriage as sin and refuse to commit adultery?  Do you think their lives here will be more fulfilling by believing they are turning away from sin? 

I do feel sorry for those people.  How would you feel if you had a child who felt more attracted to the same sex?  Would you rather they still marry the opposite sex or be celibate? 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:20 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
Then what is the issue?  We are all subject to the same laws and regulations of our country, state, county, city.  Don't like the current situation?  Change the laws within the boundaries of the relevant Constitution (or Amend the Constitution).

.. M
The rights I'm talking about are the recently granted right to marry, as well as the right to raise children without discrimination.  So a lot of it is cultural.  Gay men have a very hard time adopting, and the gay teacher I know faces a lot of judgment for raising her boys with a lesbian.  I want to be tolerant but see the nuclear family becoming less valued and never talk about these issues IRL so I was curious to know where everyone else stood on these issues, particularly people with more conservative beliefs.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:21 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
Then what is the issue?  We are all subject to the same laws and regulations of our country, state, county, city.  Don't like the current situation?  Change the laws within the boundaries of the relevant Constitution (or Amend the Constitution).

.. M
The issue is that various laws exist that don't grant equal rights to gay people.

And, changing the laws is one option, but another option is to get cases before the SC and have the discriminatory laws found unconstitutional, as was just done with anti gay marriage laws.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:29 pm

Michellebell wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
BearBones wrote: As far as marriage, what it the justification for discrimination (taxes, visitation, etc) if not religious beliefs?
Based on something like the ability to procreate instead of love? If it is it guised in "the best interest of the state," then at least be consistent. No marriage if older than, say, 50. Or if you are infertile in any way.
As far as adopting, should be also be rational and consistent. I feel the same about nuclear families, but should we outlaw divorce, which is more common? And probably more destructive, since it often involves anger and confusion for a child (I'm divorced, and I think it hurt my children).
I am a Lutheran.  So, I will give my answers in terms of the doctrine ot Two Kingdoms, Two Realms, and God rules both Kingdoms.

Kingdom of the Left (a.k.a. Civil Kingdom)
The purpose of this Kingdom is to promote order, reduce chaos, so man is free to worship God and love neighbor.
I think all people should be treated kindly, lovingly, and with respect - regardless of sexual orientation, skin color, economic status, or religion.
I think the nuclear family with a father and a mother who remain together for life in a loving relationship is the best place to raise children.
I think societies based on the nuclear family have the greatest potential for being long lasting and thus are the most stable environment.
In this Kingdom, all sins are not equal - i.e. murder is worse than shoplifting.

Kingdom of the Right (a.k.a. Kingdom of God)
A purpose of this Kingdom is to show us how to have eternal life, unseparated from God.
Homosexuality is a sin.  It does not matter if born that way (a manifestation of original sin) or if chosen (actual sin).
All sins should be acknowledged for what they are - call a thing what it is.
In God's eyes, all sins are not condoned and are equal as they separate us from God.
All sins should be repented of, then know that God forgives us for Jesus' sake.  Repentance means turning away from sin.
In this Kingdom, all who believe in the promises of God are forgiven and saved eternally.

... Mountaineer
1. So Mountaineer, you believe that people who are born homosexual should deny practicing it, just as a married person may view lust outside of marriage as sin and refuse to commit adultery?  2. Do you think their lives here will be more fulfilling by believing they are turning away from sin? 

I do feel sorry for those people.  3. How would you feel if you had a child who felt more attracted to the same sex?  4. Would you rather they still marry the opposite sex or be celibate?
I numbered your questions for ease of responding.

1. Yes.
2. Depends on whether they believe in God's promises.  If they are not Christian, I have no idea what their lives would be like while on this earth.  I'm pretty sure what it will be like after they expire.
3. Very sad.  Just like if they were attracted to another person's spouse.  Just like if they aborted their unborn child or murdered a neighbor.  Just like if they slanderers, liars, or thieves.  Just like if they abandoned God for the worship of self. 
4. Does not matter what I think.  I hope they would not fall from faith in Jesus and follow His wishes for Christians.

How do you answer your questions?

... M
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
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