Thoughts on gay rights?

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Libertarian666
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:05 pm

jafs wrote: Gay/lesbian/bisexual, etc. folks should have the same legal rights as straight people, in my view.

There's no compelling argument to deny that, and we're a country based on the notion that "all are created equal".

I think that the gay/lesbian/etc. population is something like 4%, so I'm not afraid at all if that might expand a little bit, and see no threat to our continuing to populate (over-populate) the planet.

The state has a legitimate interest in protecting children, and ensuring that they are safe/well cared for, but that interest doesn't break down along sexual orientation lines for me at all - there are many abusive straight parents, for example.

If I remember the Oregon bakery issue, the bakery violated an Oregon anti-discrimination law and were rightly found to be in the wrong.  They managed to quickly raise a lot of money, more than enough to pay the fine, and are still in business - I don't see how their lives have been ruined.

Currently, different cities/states have different laws about sexual orientation, and people can participate in the political process, and/or locate in a place that they find preferable, until the federal government steps up on the issue.

People are free to hold whatever religious beliefs they hold about homosexuality.
There is nothing "right" about forcing anyone to do business with anyone they don't want to do business with.

They were legally forced, not "rightly" forced.

Note: I don't have anything against gay people. They should have exactly the same rights as everyone else. However, those rights do not include the right to force anyone to do business with anyone else.

On a related note, I have stopped contributing to the ACLU. This is a paraphrase of what I tell them whenever they solicit me for money:

"You should divide up into two organizations. The first one, which should be called the ACLU, will defend rights found in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The second one, which should be called the TMURU (Totally Made Up Rights Union), will defend all the other made up "rights" like the "right to force people to bake cakes for people they don't want to bake cakes for". I'll donate to the first of these organizations, but not the second."
Last edited by Libertarian666 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:12 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Michellebell wrote:
1. So Mountaineer, you believe that people who are born homosexual should deny practicing it, just as a married person may view lust outside of marriage as sin and refuse to commit adultery?  2. Do you think their lives here will be more fulfilling by believing they are turning away from sin? 

I do feel sorry for those people.  3. How would you feel if you had a child who felt more attracted to the same sex?  4. Would you rather they still marry the opposite sex or be celibate?
I numbered your questions for ease of responding.

1. Yes.
2. Depends on whether they believe in God's promises.  If they are not Christian, I have no idea what their lives would be like while on this earth.  I'm pretty sure what it will be like after they expire.
3. Very sad.  Just like if they were attracted to another person's spouse.  Just like if they aborted their unborn child or murdered a neighbor.  Just like if they slanderers, liars, or thieves.  Just like if they abandoned God for the worship of self. 
4. Does not matter what I think.  I hope they would not fall from faith in Jesus and follow His wishes for Christians.

How do you answer your questions?

... M
Oh wow, my own questions are hard for me to answer. 

1.  No, I believe they should feel free to practice it as it is something they can't help and I think they deserve to pursue their happiness.
2.  I think that if they are Christian they may feel confused about what they feel is their sinful nature.  Some may be proud for having the self control to follow the Bible and feel grateful they are saved.
3.  I would feel sad for them.  I do really hope all of my children will be heterosexual.  I think homosexuals are very judged by society, they do not make ideal parents, and they will grow up without any role models for having a healthy gay relationship.  If they end up being homosexual, I don't think I could blame them though.  I love my children immensely and want them to feel that I wouldn't judge them, just as I don't want my sister to feel that I am judging her.  If my children say they are bisexual, I would encourage them to stick with the opposite sex.  For example if my daughters have a few bad relationships with men and then decide to date women for a while (I've seen this a lot), I would discourage that. 
4.  I would want them to be happy and marry the person they love the most. If they want children, I'd want them to marry the opposite sex first.  Therefore, if they really are gay I'd probably discourage children.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:19 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Then what is the issue?  We are all subject to the same laws and regulations of our country, state, county, city.  Don't like the current situation?  Change the laws within the boundaries of the relevant Constitution (or Amend the Constitution).

.. M
The issue is that various laws exist that don't grant equal rights to gay people.

And, changing the laws is one option, but another option is to get cases before the SC and have the discriminatory laws found unconstitutional, as was just done with anti gay marriage laws.
The SC does not make law (at least that it how is supposed to be).  Congress is tasked with making laws and having oversight of the (unmanageable) myriad of subsequent regulations.  ;)  So, what do you propose to get Congress to do its job?  Rhetorical question - no need to answer.  Actually, I am not 100% on this, but I think it is pretty much unlikely that anyone can legislate morality - sinful man by nature rebels.  If we all followed the "love your neighbor as you love yourself" rule this whole discussion becomes unnecessary.  Ain't going to happen on this side of the Last Day (based on what we know about recorded history).

... M
The SC is tasked with deciding whether or not laws are constitutional, and that's just what they've done.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:34 pm

Desert wrote: In my previous life as an agnostic, I would argue that "homophobia" seems like a quite natural and logical position to hold, if morality is something that evolved along with humans.  While racism is illogical in a naturalistic worldview, because inbreeding can lead to genetic problems, homophobia should be the default moral position.  So I think that naturalists that worry a lot about homosexual rights are not necessarily thinking consistently.
I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from with this, but it seems like you have breeding and morality mixed up. Yes, racism is illogical. Luckily, in Yellowstone, young daughter wolf may sneak off with someone from another pack that daddy wolf does not approve of, so that trumps daddy wolf's "racist" feelings.

Homophobia is every bit as illogical as racism. If you woke up one day and the entire world were gay, it would be logical to fear that the human race would not reproduce and carry on. But that's got nothing to do with homophobia, or limiting a gay person's rights to marry, enjoy tax benefits, and do all the things straight people do. And, it's got nothing to do with morality. How is that a "default moral position?"

jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
dualstow wrote: Pro gay rights, 100%.
When I was a teenager (long time ago), I thought the idea of same-sex couples raising children was a bit weird. None of my business, though, and it's increasingly common.
How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
Yep, what jafs said.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by BearBones » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:17 am

Desert wrote: In my previous life as an agnostic, I would argue that "homophobia" seems like a quite natural and logical position to hold, if morality is something that evolved along with humans.  While racism is illogical in a naturalistic worldview, because inbreeding can lead to genetic problems, homophobia should be the default moral position.  So I think that naturalists that worry a lot about homosexual rights are not necessarily thinking consistently.
Really?

So what happens when the mallard ducks male pairs I see all over the place "mate?" Are they shunned by other birds? Have trouble finding food and shelter? Hmm. What happens to dogs that hump on stuffed animals or their owners legs? Bad dog!!! And, heaven forbid, I hope you all don't judge me for this, but I used a vibrator on my girlfriend the other day. Just for pleasure! :P  So embarrassing to admit. No offspring intended, forgive me God!

Homosexual (and other morally objectionable) behavior happens all of the time in the animal world, my friend. Even in the Catholic church.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:11 am

Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy. 
"We are on the verge of a global transformation; all we need is the. . . right major crisis. . . and the nation will accept the. . . new world order." David Rockefeller (1994)
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:32 am

Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court. I don't believe anything else is lacking and I don't think many others do either, which is why homosexuality has all but disappeared from the public discourse and been replaced by leftists with the social acceptance of transsexuality.

For the most part, this ship has sailed.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:38 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court. I don't believe anything else is lacking and I don't think many others do either, which is why homosexuality has all but disappeared from the public discourse and been replaced by leftists with the social acceptance of transsexuality.

For the most part, this ship has sailed.
I wish I had known about this when I was a teenage boy.

Then I could have just "self-identified" as a girl and played girl's sports, where I would have been a champion. Not to mention the locker room access!  ;D
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:28 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court. I don't believe anything else is lacking and I don't think many others do either, which is why homosexuality has all but disappeared from the public discourse and been replaced by leftists with the social acceptance of transsexuality.

For the most part, this ship has sailed.
Okay I definitely gave this thread the wrong title.  You guys are all so literal!  I'll have to remember that.  I know they have won their rights.  I'm interested in hearing your attitudes toward them.  The teacher I work with has been criticized by quite a few people in both families for "living in sin," she lied to her students about adopting a son, her wife lied to her boss and said she got knocked up by a man rather than got pregnant on purpose through a sperm donor and is in a committed relationship, her first son was made fun of by another boy his age for "not having a dad," (which he does- he sees him on visitations, but his little brother really doesn't), the male gay teacher I know won custody of a child for a year and then lost him because the biological family didn't want him raised by a gay man, etc.

Also, my sister was not "nurtured" to be gay.  I think it is biological, but if homosexuality exists in nature all the time, why do you think the trait hasn't the trait died out? 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:34 am

I'm not at all sure that gay/lesbian/etc. folks have equal rights yet.

Foster parenting and adopting are probably not equalized yet, I'd think.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:39 am

I know a bunch of gay people. Their sexuality doesn't concern me since we're not in a romantic relationship. They are generally just regular, normal people. However I'll admit that none of them have children, which seems like it complicates things because the family unit wouldn't fit into one of the boxes that people expect it to. But straight couples can have plenty of crazy psychodrama with their kids too so I don't think there's anything especially weird there.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:47 am

Some of my extended family are lesbians in committed relationships with kids.

They are in every way just like straight families - the same relationship dynamics, parental concerns, etc. - except for their sexuality.

The kids are smart, sweet and interesting.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:50 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court.
~
Some of this may run into debate, like the cake maker's right to refuse service or the specific rules of organizations and clubs, but I believe they could not openly join the US military before (Don't Ask, Don't Tell). My dad knew a guy who was court-martialed when found out. There's the boys scouts, being a Catholic priest...

A lot of these are very recent.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:05 pm

There's a right to be a Catholic priest or join the boy scouts?

I get that we have the civil rights act and it makes discrimination in hiring and purveying services illegal, but let's step back for a moment. If a girl wanted to join the boy scouts, what would happen? No go. The boy scouts is only for boys. She has to join the girl scouts. And the girl scouts is only for girls. No boys allowed. Isn't that discrimination on the basis of gender? Isn't that technically illegal under the civil rights act? Another example: a female friend of mine runs a photography business that she calls an "empowerment studio for women." She takes cute or sexy pictures of women, and only women. She doesn't shoot men. Again, isn't that discrimination on the basis of gender?

But these are all examples of discrimination that we're okay with. So maybe discrimination isn't the worst thing in the entire universe and you're a hateful evil bigot for suggesting it. Maybe it's okay if the Catholic church is allowed to say "No thanks" to the possibility of ordaining gays. Similarly, a gay bar should have the right to say, "No thanks" to straight people who want to enter.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Fred » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:12 pm

Michellebell wrote: I think it is biological, but if homosexuality exists in nature all the time, why do you think the trait hasn't the trait died out?
I was just reading an article about this....

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... onism.html

The bottom line according to the theory is that the gene is both helpful and harmful. It's helpful in females because it seems to make them more reproductive, harmful in males for obvious reasons (biologically speaking).
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Xan » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:44 pm

Pointedstick wrote:Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court.
They had the same right to marry as everyone else.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:10 pm

IDrinkBloodLOL wrote: Gays shouldn't really have rights because they are not mentally sound.

Regardless of what you personally believe about homosexuality itself being a mental disorder, they all (100%) have secondary mental disorders, which they quite frequently attempt to self medicate with wanton illicit drug use. They all seem to be bipolar, alcoholic and addicted to meth and a few other drugs of choice.

Secondly, their sexuality in itself is more fixated on promiscuity and outright orgies than anything sensible or healthy. They have bloody buttsex with dozens of new men per week. Gay establishments such as gyms and bars often proudly declare that they feature "hookup rooms" for casual sex. Often this casual sex is used to pay for drugs.

Lastly, they are aggressive and proselyte. They actively try to recruit young men into homosexuality, and actively try to molest little boys.

They shouldn't have rights, they're mental cases. They should be institutionalized. Whether or not it's their "fault" is up for debate, but the fact remains that each and every single one unleashes such horror on society with their "lifestyle" that they couldn't possibly do enough good, individually or collectively, to offset it.

An important point to consider: whatever you reward and encourage in society, you get more of. We currently reward and encourage coming home to find that our 11 year old son did not return home from school because a strange man talked him into letting a room full of strange men take turns snorting cocaine out of his butthole.

That we allow and even encourage this "lifestyle" is all the proof I need to know that we live in an insane cartoon world.

inb4 "wow just wow" and "it's (current year)!" etc.
It's not polite to barge into a conversation in a group of which you are a recent member and in effect insult everyone before you as being crazy for not having the same opinion as you do.

That is an indication of "oppositional defiant disorder".
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Xan » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:15 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:It's not polite to barge into a conversation in a group of which you are a recent member and in effect insult everyone before you as being crazy for not having the same opinion as you do.

That is an indication of "oppositional defiant disorder".
That criticism might apply to some of IDrinkBlood's posts, but I'm not sure it really does to this one.  Did he call anyone here crazy?
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:17 pm

Speaking of getting more of what you reward, if you don't want to reward iDBLOL's obnoxious post and encourage more like it, don't reply to it. There are ways to express opposition to the social acceptance of homosexuality without being an asshole. Besides, he's just going to delete it in a few days anyway.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:36 pm

Blood,

You seem to be resting your opinions on certain facts that it would be helpful for us to see some sort of statistical source on.  It's ok to make brash statements here, IMO.  No reason not to call out the Emperor for having no clothes.  But it's all the more reason to accompany your more difficult-to-digest statements about reality with sources, if you don't mind.  If you're going on "gut-feel" rather than actual objective/statistical analysis, IMO that's ok too, but better to point that out for us so we know where you're getting some of this.

Also, if you don't have direct statistical sources, but follow someone on these topics that DOES list sources in their work, that would be helpful too.

Nobody's demanding perfect politeness, objectiveness, or abundant sources on all topics, but generally we all tend to like to know where someone is coming from when the list out the premises upon which they are basing their opinions.

Thanks...
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:59 pm

Blood,

If you're going to make statements about reality, or what you believe reality to be, that are based not on a rigorous statistical process or objective analytical source, but rather your own subjective experiences, especially if you are deriving such stark conclusions (that ALL people of a certain persuasion are a certain way), then the way you state your points would probably be better stated in a way that makes it clear that these are your opinions and extrapolations based on personal experience, and not some objective reality, as one might assume when you state something as a fact of reality rather than just an extrapolation you've made as part of some sort of personal analytical construct.

This doesn't mean you are wrong.  It just means you're more humbly and clearly laying your cards on the table.  We all appreciate snarkitude from time-to-time, but one thing we SEEM to have tired of is poorly-laid-out premises about the nature of reality.

You should have been here for the Proving Morality threat! :)
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:07 pm

Pointedstick wrote: There's a right to be a Catholic priest or join the boy scouts?

I get that we have the civil rights act and it makes discrimination in hiring and purveying services illegal, but let's step back for a moment.
Let's step back to where I carefully prefaced my statement with
Some of this may run into debate, like the cake maker's right to refuse service or the specific rules of organizations and clubs
.

But yes, I believe that there was a gay ban in the scouts on either the troop leaders or the scouts themselves or both, and that it has been lifted. So, the right has been given.

If you're really asking, "Should there be a right?"  that's why my preface has the word debate in it.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:09 pm

IDrinkBloodLOL wrote: When did you first decide you supported homosexuality, and for what reason?

When do you first remember feeling that it is wrong to oppose homosexuality?

Do you remember?
I don't really know what it means to "support" homosexuality. I don't insult gays. I don't think being gay should be illegal. I think marriage (from the state's standpoint) is merely a contract and doesn't have to reflect some sort of social preferences other than smooth health/economic affairs as a household unit. I am not gay myself. I have some gay friends. They are good folks, but it's a limited sample size to be sure. I would be absolutely shocked and appalled if they had anything but disgust for someone who would rape an 11 year old boy the way you mentioned.

Similarly, I don't know what it means to "oppose" homosexuality. Make it illegal?  Put them in jail for being that way or acting on it?  Disallowing gay marriage contracts?  Simply feeling like it's gross or unnatural? Those are very different things. I think deciding "rightness" or "wrongness" of something is a bit hasty until we determine the nature of reality or some range of likely possibilities. If we are grossly wrong on the nature of reality, chances are, IMO, our assessment of the nature of how things OUGHT to be will be way off (or simply very inconsistent or arbitrary).

I have slowly formed my opinion on human sexuality over time, but once again, it's built on certain premises and principals that are far more important to establish than this one micro-topic.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:22 pm

IDrinkBloodLOL wrote: Why should I outsource my thought process and analytical abilities to someone else?

Why should I accept the premise that strangers are more capable of verifying reality than I am?

What you are asking of me is to not think, so please convince me.

Maybe we should take that to a separate thread.
Don't outsource your thought process. Simply state it for us. When you state something as a fact, most people assume you either have a relatively objective source for that fact, or you're stating it as one subjective observation you have and extrapolating it as a fact of reality. It helps us to know which. There's nothing wrong with having analysis from others act as an influence of your own. And there's definitely nothing wrong with getting objective statistical data so we aren't operating on such small, biased sample sizes.

If your goal is to persuade people and/or have a meaningful conversation about these topics, pointing out how you're coming to establish these premises about reality is really helpful. If you have a different goal here, then it might be best to point that out as well.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:22 pm

Xan wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court.
They had the same right to marry as everyone else.
Actually, they didn't.

Straight people had the right to marry somebody they love of their own choosing, while gay people didn't have that right.

The issue with inter-racial marriage was the same until Loving vs. Virginia.
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