Thoughts on gay rights?

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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:59 am

Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote:
Michellebell wrote: Infidelity and divorce statistics are significantly higher amongst homosexuals though, from the sources I have encountered. 

Now is this grounds to deny adoption rights to gay men who may indeed be one of the small minority that is able to stay committed?  It's not fair to them, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a baby or seeing a baby I care about to be adopted to a couple like that.
Please share your sources.

Something like 70-80%of straight couples experience infidelity, and about 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, last time I looked.  Those are staggeringly high numbers.

And, until recently, gay/lesbians didn't have the legal right to marry in all states.  We should wait until some time has passed in which they have that right across the country to compare statistics with straight couples, I'd think.

Why not?  If I were working in the adoption field, sexual orientation wouldn't be a major factor for me in placing children.  I'd be concerned about things like financial stability, a healthy/happy relationship of the couple, thoughtfulness about how to raise children, etc.  Also, I'm not sure why you think that gay male couples are more stable than lesbian ones - in my experience, that's not necessarily true.
I already shared some here.  From what I read, I'd say the gay male couples are the least stable.  Lesbian couples are a little more stable, and heterosexual marriages are the most.  One of the sources I linked here talked about divorce rates of married gay and straight couples in Sweden.  I would search for them again but I don't have time at the moment.  But just read several of the links posted here for statistics and surveys of the grown children of gay parents.
From Wikipedia, rates of divorce of gay/lesbian couples are the same or lower (sometimes substantially lower) than divorce rates of heterosexual couples in all countries mentioned except for Sweden/Norway.

And, surprisingly to me, lesbian couples are actually divorcing at a slightly higher rate than gay male couples a lot of the time.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:11 am

Those gay male marriages are largely not monogamous.  It's a different kind of marriage.  There was a link posted here earlier about that.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:45 am

Open relationships, in which partners don't expect monogamy, are perhaps more common in gay male circles.

And, that fact makes getting useful infidelity statistics difficult, because studies don't account for it.  They just measure how much sex outside of relationships is going on, but it's clearly not "cheating" if the relationship is understood to be non-monogamous.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:54 am

jafs wrote: Open relationships, in which partners don't expect monogamy, are perhaps more common in gay male circles.

And, that fact makes getting useful infidelity statistics difficult, because studies don't account for it.  They just measure how much sex outside of relationships is going on, but it's clearly not "cheating" if the relationship is understood to be non-monogamous.
It certainly makes such relationships much less worthy of the title of "marriage".
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:55 am

Not to my mind.

It's actually a lot better from where I stand than being in a supposedly monogamous relationship and cheating on your partner, which is quite common.  If two people want to create a commitment to each other that includes the possibility of sex with other people, that's their business.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:11 pm

Maybe it's their business, but that doesn't make it a marriage.
link Michelle posted earlier wrote: Redefining “Fidelity”

McWhirter and Mattison believe that gays must redefine “fidelity” to mean not sexual faithfulness, but simply “emotional dependability.”

How can a relationship without sexual fidelity remain emotionally faithful?  Fidelity as such is only an abstraction, divorced from the body.  The agreement to have outside affairs precludes any possibility of genuine trust and intimacy.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:13 pm

Michellebell wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Michellebell wrote:
<snip> We are as a culture moving toward celebrating homosexuality.  It's all over our media and seen as almost an elite club to me.  I don't believe homosexuals should have equal rights to adoption as much as committed married heterosexual couples.  Intolerant?  Yes, and maybe I'm wrong.  But as of right now that is my opinion. <end snip>
Michellebell,

Eugenics is no longer popular like it was in the early 1900s; it seemed to reach its peak in Nazi Germany but may be making a comeback via assisted reproductive technology.  Those who are concerned about over populating the planet (typically those more liberal in their thoughts and actions, e.g. the media, e.g. acedemia) need something to replace eugenics (an aim of which was to create smarter peope who will save us) without the stigma of the word eugenics.  It appears they have chosen to make abortion and homosexuality glamorous as the current strategy to save us (via limiting successful births) from ourselves.  You may wish to counsel your sister about other possibilities for her chosen lifestyle and help her see how she is likely being manipulated by pop culture.  All my opinion.

... M
Mountaineer, this concept was always something I kind of wondered but had never heard anyone actually say it.  Obviously you are opposed to these cultural changes.  What do you suppose is our best solution to our overpopulation and overconsumption problems?

(Sorry if it's a loaded question.  bTW I have three kids and want four, but I justify it by noticing that most kids today are born to the more poor population and so many are out of wedlock, I feel like I'm doing good by having children in a stable environment - I know it's not the most logical and probably just a way of feeling better about selfishly wanting a big family).
I'm going to give you a faith based answer.  If you have only faith in the things of this world - that which you can see, smell, taste, hear, touch, and prove - I agree overpopulation and overconsumption is scary, right up there with being annihilated by a nuclear bomb, a financial crisis, an uncontrollable virus, or plague (pick your fear that you wish to spend a lot of time wringing hands over).  If, on the other hand, your faith is based on the Word of the triune God, whatever happens in this world is of only a fleeting consequence even if terrible suffering is one of those happenings.  Scripture does not promise a temporal life of happiness, it is quite the opposite.  Believing in the promises of Jesus brings one hope and joy, no matter how bad the present situation may be or may become.  In my opinion, there is a huge gulf between joy and happiness.  A child brings joy, even though it may be the source of much unhappiness.  Do I seek unhappiness?  Of course not.  Do I expect unhappiness?  You bet.  Do I think we should use our God given brains to better mankind, that is, help my neighbor?  Of course.  Do I think man is capable of solving all problems before him?  Absolutely not.  My God given reason looks at the mess the world is in.  Every time we make a step forward, there is always another mountain in front of us that was previously unseen - for example, we invented antibiotics.  A few decades later, antibiotic resistance is becoming widespread.  We discovered how to do heart transplants.  People still die from them.  We invented cars, trains, planes and a huge transportation system.  People do not follow the civil laws and die.  We have not figured out how to stop traffic deaths and plane crashes.  I think you can see hundreds or thousands of examples of this.  The ultimate example is "we die" a physical death.  So, having said all this, feel free to have as many children as you can support and ignore the naysayers who have a knack for telling others how "they" should live.  If you have faith in Jesus, it will be more people to live eternally with God.  Death has been defeated.  Thanks be to God!

... M
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:15 pm

What is "marriage," after all? What does it mean? Who gets to define it? Can its meaning evolve over time? If so, what constitutes such an evolution?
Simonjester wrote: yes it can evolve over time if the majority of what it means stays the same and the difference is only that same sex couples are added to the definition...
but its meaning shouldn't be changed by political activism forcing government decree, that is not the same as adopting the definition and slowly being accepted as a part of it., nor should the meaning be radically changed, two men who cruse hwy rest stops together for anonymous sexual gratification from strangers do not have a marriage they have a "depravity carpool" don't call it a marriage or demand that the rest of us do..
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:30 pm

jafs wrote: I didn't "mock" it.

I just pointed out that this question is a question of how our constitutionally-based government treats the issue, not a theological conversation.

Because of our constitution, you have the right in this country to believe whatever you believe, as far as religion goes.

What's wrong with polyandry, polygamy or group marriages?  And, you don't seriously think that anything I might say would persuade Mountaineer or other folks that believe as he does of anything different about this issue, do you?

People have pointed out that the proscription against homosexuality is in Leviticus, which also contains a lot of other proscriptions which have been discarded/ignored by Christians, that the verses in question are in a certain context, in which giving away your virgin daughters to be raped is seen as more moral than homosexuality, that there is no Biblical proscription of lesbianism, that Biblical marriage was often polygamous, that Jesus said nothing at all about homosexuality, etc.  All of which has no effect whatsoever on people who believe as Mountaineer believes.

And, he (and others) has the right to believe as he likes about the issue, whether it's well supported/reasoned or not. 

It's just not a fruitful discussion, when theology enters into the picture.  And, our founding document is the Constitution, so that's what should apply here.
You are certainly free to limit your view to the Constitution, based on manmade civil law which has only been around for less than a thousand years (hooray for the Magna Carta).  It is a great document for our way of life in many regards.  Personally, I defer to the righteousness of Jesus as a better way to live live life (even if you use the Jefferson Bible instead of the real one for a guide).  That method has been around for several thousands of years (and before you ask, the preincarnate Jesus was present in the OT) and has long proven successful as beneficial for society.  This way of life does not center on theology, it is far more centered on common sense and natural law, flawed as it may be, and the practical aspects of living in harmony with ones neighbors.  I care about the future for my progeny.  That is why I am not for polygamy, polyandry, same sex coupling, and the like - it just isn't beneficial for longevity of a society - at least so far in recorded history.  I would say the same thing to a Hindu, Confucianist, Muslim or Zoroastrian - Christian theology is not necessary to know all this abnormal sexual behavior is wrong.

... M
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:00 pm

I have a different view than you do of the Bible, and of Jesus.

And, yes, if we're discussing gay rights in our society, and what rights they should have, then the important document is the Constitution, since that's what our system is based on.

Given that many sexual practices have existed in many different societies, I don't see how one can conclude it's "abnormal", at least statistically speaking.

You have the right to be against all of the things you mention, and I wouldn't take that away from you.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:25 pm

The same arguments were made against interracial marriage, and until around 1967, some states still outlawed interracial marriages.

Fortunately, the SC finally stepped in and found that bans on interracial marriage were unconstitutional.

It's the same with gay marriage, it just took us until 2015 to do it.  Social change is slow, and often follows, rather than leads the way, and when basic rights are involved, it's not right to demand that people wait until everybody accepts them before granting those.

Our system isn't based on majority opinion of the overall population when it comes to those kinds of rights.  But, even if it were, the majority now supports the right of gay and lesbian folks to marry.
Simonjester wrote: i haven't posted my full position in this thread, and who knows where it is buried in the earlier threads on the topic.. so in brief

1- the government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all.... civil unions (contracts ) for all (including men with women), and the same and equal rights to have a contract for all..

2- marriage is the union of a man and woman in a religious ceremony before god.. if a gay couple can find a religion that thinks they can be joined before god ... it is none of my or anybody else's business.. they can be married before god in the eyes of the religion and any who care to recognize it..

3-marrage is also a cultural institution, the meaning of what is or isn't a marriage is not up to government (see #1) it is defined by the people who use the word and share the common understanding of what it entails, if enough gays behave according to the common definition for a long enough time (probably not that long) then the term will come to be commonly understood to include gay couples who share the common understanding of marriage values..
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:36 pm

jafs wrote: The same arguments were made against interracial marriage, and until around 1967, some states still outlawed interracial marriages.
I don't think that's true.  The bans on interracial marriages were there precisely because those WOULD BE valid marriages.  The "ban" on same-sex marriage was no such thing: those "marriages" simply aren't marriages.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:39 pm

TennPaGa wrote:
dualstow wrote:
TennPaGa wrote: ~
The Bible may form the cultural backbone for many, but maybe it shouldn't. Maybe it's way too convenient a vehicle for some to hold onto their prejudices.
Or perhaps people will decide that the Bible has useful parts and not-so-useful parts.  But, ideally, people will come to this conclusion on their own.
It just seems like "the useful parts" = what someone already believes.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:19 pm

Xan wrote:
jafs wrote: The same arguments were made against interracial marriage, and until around 1967, some states still outlawed interracial marriages.
I don't think that's true.  The bans on interracial marriages were there precisely because those WOULD BE valid marriages.  The "ban" on same-sex marriage was no such thing: those "marriages" simply aren't marriages.
If same-sex marriages wouldn't be real marriages, then there'd be no need to ban them.

The arguments were the same, that interracial marriage was wrong, unnatural, against God's will, disgusting, etc.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:21 pm

Simonjester wrote:
jafs wrote: The same arguments were made against interracial marriage, and until around 1967, some states still outlawed interracial marriages.

Fortunately, the SC finally stepped in and found that bans on interracial marriage were unconstitutional.

It's the same with gay marriage, it just took us until 2015 to do it.  Social change is slow, and often follows, rather than leads the way, and when basic rights are involved, it's not right to demand that people wait until everybody accepts them before granting those.

Our system isn't based on majority opinion of the overall population when it comes to those kinds of rights.  But, even if it were, the majority now supports the right of gay and lesbian folks to marry.
  i haven't posted my full position in this thread, and who knows where it is buried in the earlier threads on the topic.. so in brief

1- the government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all.... civil unions (contracts ) for all (including men with women), and the same and equal rights to have a contract for all..

2- marriage is the union of a man and woman in a religious ceremony before god.. if a gay couple can find a religion that thinks they can be joined before god ... it is none of my or anybody else's business.. they can be married before god in the eyes of the religion and any who care to recognize it..

3-marrage is also a cultural institution, the meaning of what is or isn't a marriage is not up to government (see #1) it is defined by the people who use the word and share the common understanding of what it entails, if enough gays behave according to the common definition for a long enough time (probably not that long) then the term will come to be commonly understood to include gay couples who share the common understanding of marriage values..
#1 and #2 are fine with me, but that's not what we currently have.

If you want to push for that version of things, go ahead.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:34 pm

jafs wrote: I have a different view than you do of the Bible, and of Jesus.

And, yes, if we're discussing gay rights in our society, and what rights they should have, then the important document is the Constitution, since that's what our system is based on.

Given that many sexual practices have existed in many different societies, I don't see how one can conclude it's "abnormal", at least statistically speaking.

You have the right to be against all of the things you mention, and I wouldn't take that away from you.
Here is something to ponder, just for fun.

Case 1 - The Christian religion was founded after Christ came, died, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven.  Slowly, over several hundred years, corruption crept in to His message of:  “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”  First, all the heresies that were in conflct with orthodox Christianity finally were dismissed after the various early Ecumenical Councils got back to basics.  Big split in 1054 AD between eastern and western Christianity.  Further big split in the mid-1500s with the Reformation, again getting back to basics.  It appears that every 500 years or so enough corruption creeps in that some critical mass takes notice and "reforms" the corruption and gets back to the basics of the central essential message of Christianity is about Christ and Him crucified.

Case 2 - Mankind has some inate need to have rulers.  First a plethora of societies with the King or Chief model, usually a theocracy of some sort.  Whatever the King said was absolute law.  It seems this was the primary model most everywhere we know about - Egypt, Europe, Asia, North and South America.  Then came the Emperor model, even to the point of some Emperors declared themselves to be god.  Fine and dandy for a while.  Then, in the case of the Roman Empire, the barbarian hordes come to take over.  Skip forward to 1215 AD and the Magna Carta.  The people beging to have a few "rights".  Skip forward again to 1787 AD when the Constitution was signed and then 1791 AD when the Bill of Rights was implemented.  This was when men married women and families were honored.  Think about the situations in other countries with Kings, Dear Leaders, Presidents, and dictators.  Skip forward to today.  How's that working out for us?  What do you see on the news every morning?  Peace?  Harmony?  Everyone getting along?  Constitution being followed? 

To ponder:  See any parallels between corruption in the church and corruption in our methods of government?  Do  you think any "reformations" or "revolutions" are on the horizon as our church and civil government spiral ever downward from the ideals on which they were founded?

OK, back to wedding cakes, the Kardashians, reality TV, gay preachers, incest, president wanna-be liars, centralization of government force, glamorization of perverts, and sheep-human hookups on the horizon.  Pondering over.  :o

... Mountaineer
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:41 pm

I don't understand your comments.

Granting equal rights to homosexuals is in line with our founding principles as I understand them, not a falling away from those principles.

Corruption and the possibility of corruption exist everywhere we find human beings, I'd say, both in secular and religious settings.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:35 pm

Simonjester wrote:
jafs wrote:
Simonjester wrote: i haven't posted my full position in this thread, and who knows where it is buried in the earlier threads on the topic.. so in brief

1- the government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all.... civil unions (contracts ) for all (including men with women), and the same and equal rights to have a contract for all..

2- marriage is the union of a man and woman in a religious ceremony before god.. if a gay couple can find a religion that thinks they can be joined before god ... it is none of my or anybody else's business.. they can be married before god in the eyes of the religion and any who care to recognize it..

3-marrage is also a cultural institution, the meaning of what is or isn't a marriage is not up to government (see #1) it is defined by the people who use the word and share the common understanding of what it entails, if enough gays behave according to the common definition for a long enough time (probably not that long) then the term will come to be commonly understood to include gay couples who share the common understanding of marriage values..
#1 and #2 are fine with me, but that's not what we currently have.

If you want to push for that version of things, go ahead.

it make sense to me to do so.... parse out the different aspects of marriage.. government recognized contracts, and the constitutional equality they should be given, the religious nature of the ceremony and tradition. and the cultural institution, and definition of what marriage means.
it simplifies understanding the situation and what people are actually arguing for and against, and it avoids "mix and match" arguments like gays cant be married because its a sin.. that actually = gays cant be married before god according to me and my church, which isn't in any way a sound argument against a equal rights to a legal contract and so on.....
As I said, it's fine with me.

But, right now, we don't have that system.  We have marriage, which is both a civil and religious term/institution.  And, as long as the civil part of that involves legal rights/privileges, those should be available to gay/lesbian etc. folks as well as straight ones.

There's also a wide variety in marriages, even heterosexual ones, already.  Some couples don't sleep in the same room and haven't gotten along for decades, while others sleep together, have sex on a regular basis, and are emotionally/spiritually close, for example.

If Gabe gets married, his marriage will almost certainly include a number of threesomes with other women.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:55 pm

According to this cite, gay men have had insanely high levels of promiscuity.  https://carm.org

Now I know the statistics are very old but still, the fact that they ever reached those levels is pretty astounding.  28% had over 1,000 partners, and 78% had over 100 partners.  Also only 4.5% were able to stay faithful in relationships, vs. 75% straight men and 85% straight women. 

Again those stats are old but even after all the AIDS awareness I still believe they are the most promiscuous group.  If a significant portion of them can only stay together by allowing open relationships and outside partners, that doesn't sound very stable to me at all.

Look at AIDS statistics from more current data- https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cdc-g ... aids-cases

I know part of the reason they have so much HIV is because of the fact that the disease is transmitted more easily amongst them, but if they weren't so promiscuous in the first place it wouldn't be such a problem.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:14 pm

jafs wrote: I don't understand your comments.

Granting equal rights to homosexuals is in line with our founding principles as I understand them, not a falling away from those principles.

Corruption and the possibility of corruption exist everywhere we find human beings, I'd say, both in secular and religious settings.
With all due respect, deeply and thoroughly ponder, with as open a mind, and as much of a study of history (un-rewritten) that you can do.  You will have to trust me on this, but I above all do not want that to be taken as a condescending comment.

... M
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:14 pm

Michellebell wrote: According to this cite, gay men have had insanely high levels of promiscuity.  https://carm.org

Now I know the statistics are very old but still, the fact that they ever reached those levels is pretty astounding.  28% had over 1,000 partners, and 78% had over 100 partners.  Also only 4.5% were able to stay faithful in relationships, vs. 75% straight men and 85% straight women. 

Again those stats are old but even after all the AIDS awareness I still believe they are the most promiscuous group.  If a significant portion of them can only stay together by allowing open relationships and outside partners, that doesn't sound very stable to me at all.

Look at AIDS statistics from more current data- https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cdc-g ... aids-cases

I know part of the reason they have so much HIV is because of the fact that the disease is transmitted more easily amongst them, but if they weren't so promiscuous in the first place it wouldn't be such a problem.
Do you have any sources that aren't from an anti-gay Christian group?

I posted what Wikipedia says on the subject, which should be a more neutral source.

Promiscuity is a different issue from stability in committed relationships, as well.  Plenty of straight people have sex with a lot of people before they get married.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:20 pm

Also I know I posted this link earlier but I want to point out that the children whose parents had sex-sex relationships in this study found the relationships very short-lived. 
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/06/5640/

Only 23% of the lesbian mothers stayed with the same woman over three years, and only 1.1% of the gay fathers stayed with the same man over three years.

There were a lot of other interesting facts in the study, such as the fact that children of lesbian mothers were many times more likely to be sexually abused.

Now this contradicts a lot of links I just found though that says that gay marriages split up at about the same rate as straight marriages, so I don't know which one is right.

Common sense tells me that men and women compliment one another the best, both sexually and emotionally.  I really wonder if some of the gay people out there are really happy.  Here's an article written by an ex-lesbian about her experience: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... ugher.html
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:26 pm

Those studies were based on children of divorced parents, so they're deeply flawed.

What they really show is that divorce can have a negative effect on children.

The very first link I found when googling lesbian parents and sexual abuse found a ZERO percentage child abuse rate among lesbian households.  It was part of the longest running study on lesbian families, spanning 24 years.

Research on child sexual abuse concludes approximately 15-25% of women and 5-15% of men have been sexually abused as children.  Lesbian households appear to be safer than the "normal" heterosexual ones.  And if you add in other forms of abuse, the contrast is even more striking (the study above included all forms of abuse, not just sexual abuse).

There are many unhappy people in the world, and in this country, and that's a shame.  I'm sure that there are unhappy gay men and lesbians, just as there are unhappy straight people.
Last edited by jafs on Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michellebell
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:48 pm

jafs wrote: Those studies were based on children of divorced parents, so they're deeply flawed.

What they really show is that divorce can have a negative effect on children.

The very first link I found when googling lesbian parents and sexual abuse found a ZERO percentage child abuse rate among lesbian households.  It was part of the longest running study on lesbian families, spanning 24 years.

Research on child sexual abuse concludes approximately 15-25% of women and 5-15% of men have been sexually abused as children.  Lesbian households appear to be safer than the "normal" heterosexual ones.  And if you add in other forms of abuse, the contrast is even more striking (the study above included all forms of abuse, not just sexual abuse).

There are many unhappy people in the world, and in this country, and that's a shame.  I'm sure that there are unhappy gay men and lesbians, just as there are unhappy straight people.
I'm pretty sure the study compared the children to straight divorced parents as well.  But I'll have to check again to be sure.

I also know there is research on lesbians raising kids out there today that are concluding that lesbians are like the new "super-parents," that their children are the most successful in every way, which really is hard to believe for me, and the research has been criticized as being from unrepresentative samples and from biased researchers.

Then again I guess I can't go by research anyway.  You can always find studies that say the exact opposite things.  My own discussions and observations?  Gay males are promiscuous and lesbian relationships are full of drama (and often seem to have been formed out of a feeling of giving up on men).

Now my sister is an exception to this, but I think it may be because this is all she's ever known.  I actually wonder if she's a little on the autistic side.  She is insanely smart but never was able to maintain friendships. Her girlfriend in high school was literally the first friend she ever had, and it became romantic, and ever since then the gay scene is all she's known. 

I could be very incorrect here of course.

But common sense tells me children raised by two mothers and no fathers can't possibly be statistically just as healthy if not more so than those raised with a good male and female role model and a stable marriage.

And you're right, I probably can't find articles with statistics that say these things that don't have a Christian theme.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:36 pm

The studies compared children of divorce to children with parents who were still together.

Some of the divorced kids had one parent, and some had same sex partners, and I believe still others had opposite sex partners.  What it showed is that same sex parents of kids from divorce did about as well as kids from divorce did with other parental situations, ie. divorce can have negative effects on kids.

If we give up on studies, then we're just left with personal experience and speculation.  And, there are plenty of unhealthy opposite sex marriages, so that's a funny comparison, comparing the ideal of heterosexual marriage to the realities of homosexual marriage.

My common sense conclusion is that happy and healthy parents in a good relationship are good for kids, and that straight or gay parents could fit that frame or not.
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