Thoughts on gay rights?

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sophie
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by sophie » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:46 am

Sounds to me like the person you want to talk to is your sister.  She's probably just as confused as you are, and would appreciate hashing out her thoughts with you.  Here's a suggested place to start: whether your sister feels she has "chosen" a homosexual lifestyle.  She may not feel comfortable with that description.  I do suggest trying not to be judgmental when you're talking to her, just listen.  There are a lot of judgmental red flags in your post.

The question of legal status for gays is sort of secondary to the above, I think.  Interesting topic to be sure, but not your main concern just now.  But, let me put to rest the idea that homosexuals are inherently mentally disordered.  They're approximately as disordered as everyone else.

Like BearBones, I hope very much that a certain medical student on this board goes into radiology or pathology.  Better opportunities for part-time work and no interaction with patients.  Some of whom might be gay.  Incidentally, about 10% of his medical school classmates and teaching attendings are gay, and chances are he doesn't know who those are.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:50 am

Michellebell wrote:
<snip> We are as a culture moving toward celebrating homosexuality.  It's all over our media and seen as almost an elite club to me.  I don't believe homosexuals should have equal rights to adoption as much as committed married heterosexual couples.  Intolerant?  Yes, and maybe I'm wrong.  But as of right now that is my opinion. <end snip>
Michellebell,

Eugenics is no longer popular like it was in the early 1900s; it seemed to reach its peak in Nazi Germany but may be making a comeback via assisted reproductive technology.  Those who are concerned about over populating the planet (typically those more liberal in their thoughts and actions, e.g. the media, e.g. acedemia) need something to replace eugenics (an aim of which was to create smarter peope who will save us) without the stigma of the word eugenics.  It appears they have chosen to make abortion and homosexuality glamorous as the current strategy to save us (via limiting successful births) from ourselves.  You may wish to counsel your sister about other possibilities for her chosen lifestyle and help her see how she is likely being manipulated by pop culture.  All my opinion.

... M
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:57 am

That's a serious misstatement of liberal thought on homosexuality.

The comments about overpopulation are in direct response to concerns that homosexuality is a threat to the species, and that we'll die out if we accept it.

Those concerns are clearly unfounded unless a vast percentage of human beings were homosexual, and that's just not the case.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by BearBones » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:59 am

Desert wrote: Well, I've managed to put myself in the position of arguing a point I don't agree with, but I'm doing so for a reason.  As a Christian, I think morality is prescribed.  But before becoming a Christian, I of course thought a lot about morality, its origins, and frankly its usefulness.  To be a true naturalist, as many on this forum are, one has to view morality as something that has simply evolved or occurred.  There is no external source of morality, it is simply something that humans have somehow invented.  Perhaps the invention wasn't strictly evolutionary in its source, but still we must think about it as being accidental, since our very existence is accidental. 
I like and respect that, Desert. I think that morals are human constructs that generally are beneficial for individuals, relationships, and societies. But not always. And not being dogmatically religious, I prefer looking at each for how accurate and helpful it might be in a given moment and situation.

Pork used to be loaded with parasites. So it made sense to refrain from including in a diet. And even prescribing as a moral duty, I guess. No longer, so I think it is kind of crazy to make it morally objectionable.

Great quote by Dawkins. Thanks.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:06 am

DISCLAIMER: Religious-tilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... l_behavior
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... l_behavior

I myself view homosexuality as an abnormality that may be affected by genetics and environment. From a Biblical perspective, we all have issues, and certain things that we need to suppress such as the desire to lie, or anger, or alcohol addiction, etc. Not everyone has the same issues that plague them and some people have to deal with homosexuality. We should still be kind towards everyone and help those we can regardless because I am to love my neighbor as I do myself.

I find it interesting however from these wikipedia articles above that they speak about homosexual behavior, not turning it into a lifestyle like humans do. (almost more like a bi-curious/bisexual versus fully homosexual). I feel like people then make an identity/culture out of homosexuality and it keeps on dividing further and further (people wanting to change genders now, etc.) As above again, everyone has their own self-conscience and they know themselves better than I know them so I can't fully feel what they feel. They may feel a very strong pull towards homosexuality that I just don't have, but then they might not have the pull towards video game addiction that I had as a young teenager (I make this comparison not to slight homosexuality, just that everyone has different things that they have to deal with).

As for gay marriage, I see the point of marriage as to provide a stable family unit for having and raising children. That way, the children are able to learn about both men and women, what each are, what makes each one special and unique in their differences. You're not going to get that day-to-day experiences without having both sides of the story. While I think it is honorable for a gay couple to want to have a child, they just can't provide the experiences to fully round out the child unless there is another close member of the opposite sex that the child can look to and learn from.

I think homosexuals should be treated as what they are: imperfect humans, just as the rest of us are imperfect humans with each of our own addictions and shortcomings. Marriage, for me, is to provide for a stable unit that each person is now financially/emotionally/physically tied to to make an ideally unbreakable bond for children. I'm not stating you have to have kids if you get married, but just that marriage makes it harder to break-out of the family if you have kids and decide it isn't for you and want to get out of the "contract".

I believe God gave Adam a helper so that he wouldn't be alone and that they would be able to do more and better things by sticking together. I think that Adam can have another Adam, or Eve another Eve, and they can both rely on each other for help to live life more comfortably, but that this shouldn't be considered as marriage.

Relativism is a slippery slope.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by BearBones » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:16 am

sophie wrote: Sounds to me like the person you want to talk to is your sister.
+1
But you may be doing that.

Btw, watch a bit of the documentary "growing up trans" if you get a chance. Really sad. Omg. To say that an 8 year old is "choosing" to live a totally agonizing life of wishing to be the opposite sex is preposterous to me. Not quite the same, I know, but I do think that a certain percentage of the population gets "wired" in a way that is not conducive to propagation. Or to an easy, happy life.

In this context, I feel bad for your sister. And for you.

Here is my last word for this thread. Negative judgements of others generally don't help very much. For others or for ourselves. The world would be so much a better place if we all just focused more on own own imperfections and less on those of others.

And when we do feel judgement or irritation? It usually comes from an insecurity or weak place within ourselves. Take a really close look.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by technovelist » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:16 am

Michellebell wrote: I wonder if my sister will be happy as a lesbian.  She claims she's bisexual but hasn't tried dating any men.  Why would she when lesbianism is so "cool" these days?  But her first girlfriend had a lot of issues and tried to commit suicide several times.  Her next girlfriend struggled with gender identity and has been going back and forth between identifying as a female vs a male. 

I know another woman who married a woman and then left her because the relationship was so unstable.  She identified herself as a lesbian and became friends almost exclusively with lesbians.  When she started dating men again (she's married now), her friends were really angry at her and her boss even sexually harassed her.

You might say these are isolated cases, but I think they're still worth thinking about.  My sister may not know if she might actually like being in a relationship with a man.  I don't think she'd be able to attract a man honestly.  She is beautiful, tall and thin, blond...a classic beauty like Grace Kelly, but she looks like a lesbian (short hair, dresses like a boy, gets mistaken for a boy sometimes, etc.).  Shes also genius-level smart.
If she is that pretty, she shouldn't have any trouble attracting a man, unless her personality is quite off-putting. However, of course it would help if she dressed like a woman and grew her hair longer.

BTW, this is another way in which men and women are quite different. Most men are either straight or gay, and the straight ones don't have any interest in sex with another man. Women seem to be considerably more fluid in that regard.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:19 am

I'll be reading this a bit later, but it seems interesting to learn more about:

http://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:44 am

I haven't looked at the link lately, although I think I've read that page before. This is not a reply to your specific post, Greg, but the link reminds me that once upon a time males did not exist in nature. In *any* species. Reproduction still happened. And there are cases of all females of a species on an island, where the females transform into a male and reproduction happens.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:08 am

sophie wrote: Sounds to me like the person you want to talk to is your sister.  She's probably just as confused as you are, and would appreciate hashing out her thoughts with you.  Here's a suggested place to start: whether your sister feels she has "chosen" a homosexual lifestyle.  She may not feel comfortable with that description.  I do suggest trying not to be judgmental when you're talking to her, just listen.  There are a lot of judgmental red flags in your post.

The question of legal status for gays is sort of secondary to the above, I think.  Interesting topic to be sure, but not your main concern just now.  But, let me put to rest the idea that homosexuals are inherently mentally disordered.  They're approximately as disordered as everyone else.

Like BearBones, I hope very much that a certain medical student on this board goes into radiology or pathology.  Better opportunities for part-time work and no interaction with patients.  Some of whom might be gay.  Incidentally, about 10% of his medical school classmates and teaching attendings are gay, and chances are he doesn't know who those are.
I am very aware my post sounded judgmental.  I would never say these things to a gay person I cared about.  I'm sharing my thoughts here because I feel safe on here discussing it.  I really never say these things aloud.

Part of me wants to talk to her about it but I'm pretty afraid to do it, just as I think my dad is afraid to do it.  My husband's cousin recently almost married a woman, to the shock of everyone, as she had always dated men before.  She called off the wedding due to different goals regarding having kids, and now she is engaged to a man.  As far as I know, most people didn't anything to her about it though when she was a lesbian.  I think they were too afraid.
Last edited by Michellebell on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:48 pm

Greg wrote: DISCLAIMER: Religious-tilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... l_behavior
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... l_behavior

I myself view homosexuality as an abnormality that may be affected by genetics and environment. From a Biblical perspective, we all have issues, and certain things that we need to suppress such as the desire to lie, or anger, or alcohol addiction, etc. Not everyone has the same issues that plague them and some people have to deal with homosexuality. We should still be kind towards everyone and help those we can regardless because I am to love my neighbor as I do myself.

I find it interesting however from these wikipedia articles above that they speak about homosexual behavior, not turning it into a lifestyle like humans do. (almost more like a bi-curious/bisexual versus fully homosexual). I feel like people then make an identity/culture out of homosexuality and it keeps on dividing further and further (people wanting to change genders now, etc.) As above again, everyone has their own self-conscience and they know themselves better than I know them so I can't fully feel what they feel. They may feel a very strong pull towards homosexuality that I just don't have, but then they might not have the pull towards video game addiction that I had as a young teenager (I make this comparison not to slight homosexuality, just that everyone has different things that they have to deal with).

As for gay marriage, I see the point of marriage as to provide a stable family unit for having and raising children. That way, the children are able to learn about both men and women, what each are, what makes each one special and unique in their differences. You're not going to get that day-to-day experiences without having both sides of the story. While I think it is honorable for a gay couple to want to have a child, they just can't provide the experiences to fully round out the child unless there is another close member of the opposite sex that the child can look to and learn from.

I think homosexuals should be treated as what they are: imperfect humans, just as the rest of us are imperfect humans with each of our own addictions and shortcomings. Marriage, for me, is to provide for a stable unit that each person is now financially/emotionally/physically tied to to make an ideally unbreakable bond for children. I'm not stating you have to have kids if you get married, but just that marriage makes it harder to break-out of the family if you have kids and decide it isn't for you and want to get out of the "contract".

I believe God gave Adam a helper so that he wouldn't be alone and that they would be able to do more and better things by sticking together. I think that Adam can have another Adam, or Eve another Eve, and they can both rely on each other for help to live life more comfortably, but that this shouldn't be considered as marriage.

Relativism is a slippery slope.
I found this response very interesting.  As a civilized society, there are norms and values that promote stability and well being.  We all are filled with natural urges but we have to decide which ones to indulge and which ones to control.  We have to control overeating and desires to commit adultery.  I personally have a binge drinking problem, which is why I have not had a drink in eight years.  Should I say I was born with the alcoholic gene and throw up my hands and say there is nothing I can do about it because it's not my choice?  Yes I can't enjoy the occasional glass of wine or have fun at a party like other people around me, but I have accepted that I have a problem with this and have chosen to abstain from it. 

As far as cultural ramifications of homosexuality, I am not worried about under population of course.  However I am worried about the percentages of children that are raised in stable heterosexual married families.  The nuclear family is no longer being seen as the highest standard for raising kids.  It is becoming just one of so many options, each considered just as good as any other.  I feel like our society is viewing families as a free-for-all, make-it-up-and-call-it-a-family type deal.  Two dads? Sure.  Two moms? Sure.  Open relationships? Sure.  How about polygamy?  This is all in the name of being tolerant and nonjudgmental. 

People are becoming afraid to teach their values to young people who are now exploring so many avenues believing they are all as good as any other. 

However I might feel completely different if my attraction toward men were viewed as taboo by the rest of the world and I really felt I had no choice in the matter. 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:02 pm

Michellebell wrote: As far as cultural ramifications of homosexuality, I am not worried about under population of course.  However I am worried about the percentages of children that are raised in stable heterosexual married families.  The nuclear family is no longer being seen as the highest standard for raising kids.  It is becoming just one of so many options, each considered just as good as any other.  I feel like our society is viewing families as a free-for-all, make-it-up-and-call-it-a-family type deal.  Two dads? Sure.  Two moms? Sure.  Open relationships? Sure.  How about polygamy?  This is all in the name of being tolerant and nonjudgmental. 

People are becoming afraid to teach their values to young people who are now exploring so many avenues believing they are all as good as any other. 

However I might feel completely different if my attraction toward men were viewed as taboo by the rest of the world and I really felt I had no choice in the matter.
Sexual relativism I think can be an especially "slippery slope" because it can be perverted so easily. There is no objective standard then as to what is correct and that which is not. We state that we make laws to be objective but even those are then crafted by people that have subjective opinions, the issue of the "problem of the majority". For instance, I am a male that is heterosexual and I have a wife and we have a monogamous relationship. This to me, is the standard. You are either a.) single, b.) married to a person of the opposite sex.

By saying that homosexuality is acceptable, there is no stop point. Using this logic, why wouldn't it be different to say a male is attracted to female children. Is this any worse than homosexuality? One is an age of consent issue, the other is of two people who's parts physically don't fit together (i.e. two keys or two locks versus a lock/key combo).

By accepting all of this, as I said, there is no endpoint. Anything can be acceptable if you can get the majority to side with you on it, or a vocal and strong minority. Look at NAMBLA for instance, is that wrong? Why is it wrong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ame ... ssociation. Objective morals I think are very important for determining how we ought to behave. Subjective morals can different from person to person which really makes them useless. 2+2 = 4 to one person and 2+2=5 to another. It collapses on itself.

I think this also goes into the debate of are people inherently good or bad? Based on my religious views and common sense (in my opinion), believing people are inherently bad makes sense. That's why we have to live by laws and our society is organized by laws. Without laws, things fall into chaos because we're imperfect creatures.

Life isn't fair and we all have desires that we either can't quench or shouldn't quench. Not everyone is the same, but we should all be helping out others as we also help ourselves to reach towards what we morally ought to be, not what we always want to be.

The point is, pluralism, or a variety of ideas, are not all correct. You are still fundamentally missing a side of the story when you're growing up and by steering away from this, there are other things that negatively pop up.
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