Thoughts on gay rights?

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Desert
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Desert » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:36 pm

I don't spend much time thinking about homosexuals.  As a Christian, I hear a LOT of discussion on the issue, and I have to admit that I think a lot of it is driven by the need for some Christians to feel superior to those "other" sinners.  In other words, I think a lot of us Christians are modern day pharisees, and homosexuals are the NT harlots of our day.  So while I agree that homosexuality is a sin, I don't spend a lot of calories worrying about it, because I've got enough sins of my own to contend with. 

In my previous life as an agnostic, I would argue that "homophobia" seems like a quite natural and logical position to hold, if morality is something that evolved along with humans.  While racism is illogical in a naturalistic worldview, because inbreeding can lead to genetic problems, homophobia should be the default moral position.  So I think that naturalists that worry a lot about homosexual rights are not necessarily thinking consistently. 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:42 pm

jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
jafs wrote: Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
Then what is the issue?  We are all subject to the same laws and regulations of our country, state, county, city.  Don't like the current situation?  Change the laws within the boundaries of the relevant Constitution (or Amend the Constitution).

.. M
The issue is that various laws exist that don't grant equal rights to gay people.

And, changing the laws is one option, but another option is to get cases before the SC and have the discriminatory laws found unconstitutional, as was just done with anti gay marriage laws.
The SC does not make law (at least that it how is supposed to be).  Congress is tasked with making laws and having oversight of the (unmanageable) myriad of subsequent regulations.  ;)  So, what do you propose to get Congress to do its job?  Rhetorical question - no need to answer.  Actually, I am not 100% on this, but I think it is pretty much unlikely that anyone can legislate morality - sinful man by nature rebels.  If we all followed the "love your neighbor as you love yourself" rule this whole discussion becomes unnecessary.  Ain't going to happen on this side of the Last Day (based on what we know about recorded history).

... M
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:43 pm

Desert wrote: I don't spend much time thinking about homosexuals.  As a Christian, I hear a LOT of discussion on the issue, and I have to admit that I think a lot of it is driven by the need for some Christians to feel superior to those "other" sinners.  In other words, I think a lot of us Christians are modern day pharisees, and homosexuals are the NT harlots of our day.  So while I agree that homosexuality is a sin, I don't spend a lot of calories worrying about it, because I've got enough sins of my own to contend with. 

In my previous life as an agnostic, I would argue that "homophobia" seems like a quite natural and logical position to hold, if morality is something that evolved along with humans.  While racism is illogical in a naturalistic worldview, because inbreeding can lead to genetic problems, homophobia should be the default moral position.  So I think that naturalists that worry a lot about homosexual rights are not necessarily thinking consistently.
Amen bro!  :)

... M
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by technovelist » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:05 pm

jafs wrote: Gay/lesbian/bisexual, etc. folks should have the same legal rights as straight people, in my view.

There's no compelling argument to deny that, and we're a country based on the notion that "all are created equal".

I think that the gay/lesbian/etc. population is something like 4%, so I'm not afraid at all if that might expand a little bit, and see no threat to our continuing to populate (over-populate) the planet.

The state has a legitimate interest in protecting children, and ensuring that they are safe/well cared for, but that interest doesn't break down along sexual orientation lines for me at all - there are many abusive straight parents, for example.

If I remember the Oregon bakery issue, the bakery violated an Oregon anti-discrimination law and were rightly found to be in the wrong.  They managed to quickly raise a lot of money, more than enough to pay the fine, and are still in business - I don't see how their lives have been ruined.

Currently, different cities/states have different laws about sexual orientation, and people can participate in the political process, and/or locate in a place that they find preferable, until the federal government steps up on the issue.

People are free to hold whatever religious beliefs they hold about homosexuality.
There is nothing "right" about forcing anyone to do business with anyone they don't want to do business with.

They were legally forced, not "rightly" forced.

Note: I don't have anything against gay people. They should have exactly the same rights as everyone else. However, those rights do not include the right to force anyone to do business with anyone else.

On a related note, I have stopped contributing to the ACLU. This is a paraphrase of what I tell them whenever they solicit me for money:

"You should divide up into two organizations. The first one, which should be called the ACLU, will defend rights found in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The second one, which should be called the TMURU (Totally Made Up Rights Union), will defend all the other made up "rights" like the "right to force people to bake cakes for people they don't want to bake cakes for". I'll donate to the first of these organizations, but not the second."
Last edited by technovelist on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:12 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Michellebell wrote:
1. So Mountaineer, you believe that people who are born homosexual should deny practicing it, just as a married person may view lust outside of marriage as sin and refuse to commit adultery?  2. Do you think their lives here will be more fulfilling by believing they are turning away from sin? 

I do feel sorry for those people.  3. How would you feel if you had a child who felt more attracted to the same sex?  4. Would you rather they still marry the opposite sex or be celibate?
I numbered your questions for ease of responding.

1. Yes.
2. Depends on whether they believe in God's promises.  If they are not Christian, I have no idea what their lives would be like while on this earth.  I'm pretty sure what it will be like after they expire.
3. Very sad.  Just like if they were attracted to another person's spouse.  Just like if they aborted their unborn child or murdered a neighbor.  Just like if they slanderers, liars, or thieves.  Just like if they abandoned God for the worship of self. 
4. Does not matter what I think.  I hope they would not fall from faith in Jesus and follow His wishes for Christians.

How do you answer your questions?

... M
Oh wow, my own questions are hard for me to answer. 

1.  No, I believe they should feel free to practice it as it is something they can't help and I think they deserve to pursue their happiness.
2.  I think that if they are Christian they may feel confused about what they feel is their sinful nature.  Some may be proud for having the self control to follow the Bible and feel grateful they are saved.
3.  I would feel sad for them.  I do really hope all of my children will be heterosexual.  I think homosexuals are very judged by society, they do not make ideal parents, and they will grow up without any role models for having a healthy gay relationship.  If they end up being homosexual, I don't think I could blame them though.  I love my children immensely and want them to feel that I wouldn't judge them, just as I don't want my sister to feel that I am judging her.  If my children say they are bisexual, I would encourage them to stick with the opposite sex.  For example if my daughters have a few bad relationships with men and then decide to date women for a while (I've seen this a lot), I would discourage that. 
4.  I would want them to be happy and marry the person they love the most. If they want children, I'd want them to marry the opposite sex first.  Therefore, if they really are gay I'd probably discourage children.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:19 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Then what is the issue?  We are all subject to the same laws and regulations of our country, state, county, city.  Don't like the current situation?  Change the laws within the boundaries of the relevant Constitution (or Amend the Constitution).

.. M
The issue is that various laws exist that don't grant equal rights to gay people.

And, changing the laws is one option, but another option is to get cases before the SC and have the discriminatory laws found unconstitutional, as was just done with anti gay marriage laws.
The SC does not make law (at least that it how is supposed to be).  Congress is tasked with making laws and having oversight of the (unmanageable) myriad of subsequent regulations.  ;)  So, what do you propose to get Congress to do its job?  Rhetorical question - no need to answer.  Actually, I am not 100% on this, but I think it is pretty much unlikely that anyone can legislate morality - sinful man by nature rebels.  If we all followed the "love your neighbor as you love yourself" rule this whole discussion becomes unnecessary.  Ain't going to happen on this side of the Last Day (based on what we know about recorded history).

... M
The SC is tasked with deciding whether or not laws are constitutional, and that's just what they've done.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:34 pm

Desert wrote: In my previous life as an agnostic, I would argue that "homophobia" seems like a quite natural and logical position to hold, if morality is something that evolved along with humans.  While racism is illogical in a naturalistic worldview, because inbreeding can lead to genetic problems, homophobia should be the default moral position.  So I think that naturalists that worry a lot about homosexual rights are not necessarily thinking consistently.
I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from with this, but it seems like you have breeding and morality mixed up. Yes, racism is illogical. Luckily, in Yellowstone, young daughter wolf may sneak off with someone from another pack that daddy wolf does not approve of, so that trumps daddy wolf's "racist" feelings.

Homophobia is every bit as illogical as racism. If you woke up one day and the entire world were gay, it would be logical to fear that the human race would not reproduce and carry on. But that's got nothing to do with homophobia, or limiting a gay person's rights to marry, enjoy tax benefits, and do all the things straight people do. And, it's got nothing to do with morality. How is that a "default moral position?"

jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
dualstow wrote: Pro gay rights, 100%.
When I was a teenager (long time ago), I thought the idea of same-sex couples raising children was a bit weird. None of my business, though, and it's increasingly common.
How do you define "rights"?  I'm a bit confused why gay's should have any more or less "rights" than any other human.  How do you define "privilege"?  And lastly, where do "rights" come from?  Who establishes "rights"?  Are "rights" situational or absolute?  How do you know?

... M
Gay rights movements aren't about gays having "more" rights than straight people, they're about gay people having the same rights as straight people.

The rights we're discussing come from our society and legal structure.
Yep, what jafs said.
Last edited by dualstow on Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by BearBones » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:17 am

Desert wrote: In my previous life as an agnostic, I would argue that "homophobia" seems like a quite natural and logical position to hold, if morality is something that evolved along with humans.  While racism is illogical in a naturalistic worldview, because inbreeding can lead to genetic problems, homophobia should be the default moral position.  So I think that naturalists that worry a lot about homosexual rights are not necessarily thinking consistently.
Really?

So what happens when the mallard ducks male pairs I see all over the place "mate?" Are they shunned by other birds? Have trouble finding food and shelter? Hmm. What happens to dogs that hump on stuffed animals or their owners legs? Bad dog!!! And, heaven forbid, I hope you all don't judge me for this, but I used a vibrator on my girlfriend the other day. Just for pleasure! :P  So embarrassing to admit. No offspring intended, forgive me God!

Homosexual (and other morally objectionable) behavior happens all of the time in the animal world, my friend. Even in the Catholic church.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:11 am

Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy. 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:32 am

Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court. I don't believe anything else is lacking and I don't think many others do either, which is why homosexuality has all but disappeared from the public discourse and been replaced by leftists with the social acceptance of transsexuality.

For the most part, this ship has sailed.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by technovelist » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:38 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court. I don't believe anything else is lacking and I don't think many others do either, which is why homosexuality has all but disappeared from the public discourse and been replaced by leftists with the social acceptance of transsexuality.

For the most part, this ship has sailed.
I wish I had known about this when I was a teenage boy.

Then I could have just "self-identified" as a girl and played girl's sports, where I would have been a champion. Not to mention the locker room access!  ;D
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by tennpaga » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:58 am

technovelist wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Maddy wrote: Wow, three pages in, and still no attempt to articulate what specific "rights" homosexuals do not enjoy.
Up until recently, many lacked the right to marry, which was recently discovered by the supreme court. I don't believe anything else is lacking and I don't think many others do either, which is why homosexuality has all but disappeared from the public discourse and been replaced by leftists with the social acceptance of transsexuality.

For the most part, this ship has sailed.
I wish I had known about this when I was a teenage boy.

Then I could have just "self-identified" as a girl and played girl's sports, where I would have been a champion. Not to mention the locker room access!  ;D
Based on my interactions with two transgender people that I know quite well (both are male to female), I would say that it has nothing to do with wanting to play girl's sports or wanting access to the girl's locker room.
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