Men, women and sex

[Libertarian666]

The first time I ever heard a woman complain about a low male sex drive was a friend of mine.  I remember when she married him, shortly after I got married myself, she was saying how great it was to find a beta male.  I had never heard of the concept before actually , so she explained it to me.  I was like, what?  That's what we are supposed to like?  Anyway, about a year later she was saying how she was annoyed that she was paying $30 a month for birth control pills and he was only willing to sleep with her once a month.  She was saying how cost inefficient that was.  I was like, woah, because I had never experienced that.
...
The other time it was so long ago I can barely remember it.  When we fight, he usually is not interested, and we were fighting a lot one summer.  I had made the mistake of talking about him to my friends (really bad habit, I finally learned), and they convinced me that the whole dynamic of our relationship was wrong.  So I decided to fight, demand more, try to control him more.  He wasn't pleased and was pushing back and we had a horrible summer.  Toward the end of it though, it was like he started to cave, was finally like, "okay!!  I give up, just please stop fighting with me!"  So I was finally thinking we were on our way up and would be fine...

But then, I was feeling all loving again and wanted to reconnect and have sex but he wasn't in the mood anymore.  I was like, what what what???  Since when had he ever been "not in the mood"? 

I realized that by "winning" I had just succeeded in getting him to comply with me but completely emasculated him.  Our sex life was always one of the strongest things we had going for us.  I was like, oh no this will not work for me.  So I changed my tune and started treated him much better and we became really close again very shortly after that.

I know that's a really long story but my thoughts are that in other couples it may not be so obvious what is happening. The husband might resent his wife but not want to come across as a complainer or as domineering, so he just keeps it all in and doesn't bother to work it out, all while becoming less attracted to his wife.

I don't know if there's much truth to that.  I'm just kind of thinking aloud at this point.

Most men have a very negative reaction to being ordered around by their wives, as that is contrary to our nature as men. Men generally want respect from their wives for protecting and providing for them.

Another major problem with that approach is that men who don't mind being ordered around by their wives also aren't very likely to be interested in sex with their wives, as your friend found out, and this is also true the other way around (i.e., most women aren't interested in sex with men whom they can order around).

So it's best to avoid this whole situation by following the old school philosophy that men should love their wives, showing this by protecting and providing for them, whereas women should respect their husbands, appreciating their protection and provision, and not try to turn them into servants.

(The fact this is the Biblical description of proper relationships is interesting although that's not why I think it is the correct model, as I'm not a believer in the Bible.)

[MediumTex]

Okay so now back to talking about men, women, and sex...

I had recently been reading about some relationships and was giving some advice too and came across the concept of husbands having really low libido.  I have some ideas about this.  We already talked about how men have much higher sex drives than women because they have much more testosterone.  Plus women are only fertile for short times each month so it makes sense their sex drive is usually lower, whereas men's are steady.  So I think that when the husband is hardly ever in the mood, aside from medical reasons, it might have to do mostly with resentment.

Resentment, frustration, and anger can all undermine the male libido.  I think that's where the sayings about quarrelsome and contentious wives come from--i.e., those are about the only behaviors that can shut down the otherwise potent and ever-present male sex drive.

The first time I ever heard a woman complain about a low male sex drive was a friend of mine.  I remember when she married him, shortly after I got married myself, she was saying how great it was to find a beta male.  I had never heard of the concept before actually , so she explained it to me.  I was like, what?  That's what we are supposed to like?  Anyway, about a year later she was saying how she was annoyed that she was paying $30 a month for birth control pills and he was only willing to sleep with her once a month.  She was saying how cost inefficient that was.  I was like, woah, because I had never experienced that.

Your friend is an idiot.  Her damaged thinking flows from the well of feminist beliefs about the role of men in society.  It's sad, not just because it seeks to dehumanize an intimate partner, but also because it sets the woman up for endless frustration because her pet monkey will never be the kind of partner most people want in life.  She essentially exchanged intimacy for power, but the power will end up being a curse more than a blessing because she will end up being responsible for the child-like asexual creature she calls her husband.

Your friend will turn into more of a Mommy figure than wife to her husband, and when she finally leaves him it will destroy him because by that time he will depend on her for everything. 

The other time it was so long ago I can barely remember it.  When we fight, he usually is not interested, and we were fighting a lot one summer.  I had made the mistake of talking about him to my friends (really bad habit, I finally learned), and they convinced me that the whole dynamic of our relationship was wrong.  So I decided to fight, demand more, try to control him more.  He wasn't pleased and was pushing back and we had a horrible summer.  Toward the end of it though, it was like he started to cave, was finally like, "okay!!  I give up, just please stop fighting with me!"  So I was finally thinking we were on our way up and would be fine...

But then, I was feeling all loving again and wanted to reconnect and have sex but he wasn't in the mood anymore.  I was like, what what what???  Since when had he ever been "not in the mood"? 

I realized that by "winning" I had just succeeded in getting him to comply with me but completely emasculated him.  Our sex life was always one of the strongest things we had going for us.  I was like, oh no this will not work for me.  So I changed my tune and started treated him much better and we became really close again very shortly after that.

I think that men begin to perceive endless negative feedback from their wives in the same way that a child interprets endless negative feedback from a parent.  It starts to mess with the self-image, and at some point you start trying to limit contact with the thing that seems focused on bleeding your self-esteem away, which is not terribly different than trying to limit your contact with something that is actually trying to kill you.  It's definitely a fight or flight response.  If men were honest in those situations, they would say: "Sex?  Are you kidding?  I'm just trying to keep from losing my mind here.  The person I love is telling me I'm nothing, and I'm having trouble shaking it off and not just totally freaking out."

I know that's a really long story but my thoughts are that in other couples it may not be so obvious what is happening. The husband might resent his wife but not want to come across as a complainer or as domineering, so he just keeps it all in and doesn't bother to work it out, all while becoming less attracted to his wife.

I don't know if there's much truth to that.  I'm just kind of thinking aloud at this point.

The husband quickly realizes that he is in a predicament--he can't appear weak, but his wife's withdrawal of validation and support is making him feel weak.  The only way he can restore his strength is to begin creating emotional structures that don't include his wife, and which in fact are specifically designed to exclude his wife so that he can begin to remember what it feels like to feel good about himself.  When the wife senses what he is doing, her impulse is often to try to tear down those new structures without realizing why they were built in the first place.  As the husband realizes that his wife intends to undermine any effort on his part to recover some self-esteem and self-respect, he realizes that he will have to create more emotional distance and cultivate deception in order to survive within the relationship until the attacks from his wife stop. 

It's a really sad and destructive cycle.  People just cut each other to pieces emotionally, and they imagine they are somehow standing up for themselves or getting important issues out in the open.  A lot of that stuff is better left unsaid.  We are all imperfect.  It's not necessary to be reminded by the person we love the most.  In fact, I would say it's often better to cultivate and support almost mythological beliefs about the person you love.  Why not make them believe they are the most handsome, powerful, virile, potent creature in the universe?  What's the harm in that, especially if you are the one who benefits from his inflated beliefs about his own abilities?  Would you like him to make you feel like a beautiful Goddess capable of experiencing sublime states of romantic ecstasy?  Or would you rather have him pick at you about the way you cook and clean house?  Which approach would come closer to bringing out the best in you?

[Michellebell]

The first time I ever heard a woman complain about a low male sex drive was a friend of mine.  I remember when she married him, shortly after I got married myself, she was saying how great it was to find a beta male.  I had never heard of the concept before actually , so she explained it to me.  I was like, what?  That's what we are supposed to like?  Anyway, about a year later she was saying how she was annoyed that she was paying $30 a month for birth control pills and he was only willing to sleep with her once a month.  She was saying how cost inefficient that was.  I was like, woah, because I had never experienced that.
...
The other time it was so long ago I can barely remember it.  When we fight, he usually is not interested, and we were fighting a lot one summer.  I had made the mistake of talking about him to my friends (really bad habit, I finally learned), and they convinced me that the whole dynamic of our relationship was wrong.  So I decided to fight, demand more, try to control him more.  He wasn't pleased and was pushing back and we had a horrible summer.  Toward the end of it though, it was like he started to cave, was finally like, "okay!!  I give up, just please stop fighting with me!"  So I was finally thinking we were on our way up and would be fine...

But then, I was feeling all loving again and wanted to reconnect and have sex but he wasn't in the mood anymore.  I was like, what what what???  Since when had he ever been "not in the mood"? 

I realized that by "winning" I had just succeeded in getting him to comply with me but completely emasculated him.  Our sex life was always one of the strongest things we had going for us.  I was like, oh no this will not work for me.  So I changed my tune and started treated him much better and we became really close again very shortly after that.

I know that's a really long story but my thoughts are that in other couples it may not be so obvious what is happening. The husband might resent his wife but not want to come across as a complainer or as domineering, so he just keeps it all in and doesn't bother to work it out, all while becoming less attracted to his wife.

I don't know if there's much truth to that.  I'm just kind of thinking aloud at this point.

Most men have a very negative reaction to being ordered around by their wives, as that is contrary to our nature as men. Men generally want respect from their wives for protecting and providing for them.

Another major problem with that approach is that men who don't mind being ordered around by their wives also aren't very likely to be interested in sex with their wives, as your friend found out, and this is also true the other way around (i.e., most women aren't interested in sex with men whom they can order around).

So it's best to avoid this whole situation by following the old school philosophy that men should love their wives, showing this by protecting and providing for them, whereas women should respect their husbands, appreciating their protection and provision, and not try to turn them into servants.

(The fact this is the Biblical description of proper relationships is interesting although that's not why I think it is the correct model, as I'm not a believer in the Bible.)

Well, you don't have to believe the bible was inspired by God to benefit from recommendations on how to follow a model for marriage that has worked for millennia. 

It's unfortunate that so many people reject the biblical model of marriage because they don't believe all the details that they disagree with within the bible.  They end up rejecting the entire thing, rather than consider that there may indeed be some wisdom in it's teachings. 

Btw this may sound odd but I find the bible itself pretty bland.  I do enjoy reading articles and interpretations of it's messages though.

I'll also say that even though I'm a working mother, the guidelines of a biblical marriage really do work the best in my case.  My husband and I naturally fit into those roles, and when I tried to deviate from them, we both really suffered.  I ended up learning a lesson about how we both feel happiest in marriage.  I bet a lot of other couples would feel the same way if they actually experienced it. 

[Libertarian666]

Well, you don't have to believe the bible was inspired by God to benefit from recommendations on how to follow a model for marriage that has worked for millennia. 

It's unfortunate that so many people reject the biblical model of marriage because they don't believe all the details that they disagree with within the bible.  They end up rejecting the entire thing, rather than consider that there may indeed be some wisdom in it's teachings. 

It's especially weird when "Christians" reject the biblical model of marriage. This strange behavior, which Dalrock has dissected on numerous occasions, demonstrates how deep the rot of feminism has penetrated even supposedly "conservative" parts of society.

[Michellebell]

[hr

Your friend is an idiot.  Her damaged thinking flows from the well of feminist beliefs about the role of men in society.  It's sad, not just because it seeks to dehumanize an intimate partner, but also because it sets the woman up for endless frustration because her pet monkey will never be the kind of partner most people want in life.  She essentially exchanged intimacy for power, but the power will end up being a curse more than a blessing because she will end up being responsible for the child-like asexual creature she calls her husband.

Your friend will turn into more of a Mommy figure than wife to her husband, and when she finally leaves him it will destroy him because by that time he will depend on her for everything. 

Actually I don't think she turned into a mommy figure, but their marriage is definitely in a lot of trouble, from what I hear.  She and I grew apart so we only talk about once a year now.  According to her, they had a rough time recently but now they are doing alright.  According to her sister though, who is also my friend, they are having serious problems.  At first, they were really affectionate.  I remember going to their wedding (about nine years ago now) and hanging out with them shortly afterward.  He was talking about some of the funny things they would tell their son if they had a boy, or his daughter if they have a girl.  They both seemed pretty happy.  I remember him telling me how he thinks she'll make a wonderful mother someday.

Her sister recently had a baby, and she has been completely in love with the baby and wants one of her own now, but her husband wants absolutely nothing to do with having any children.  According to the sister, he pretty-much never wants to spend any time with her now.  Plus, her mother died of cancer recently and she took it REALLY hard.  Apparently he told her that mourning made her unattractive and because of that, he no longer desires to have a child with her.  Her sister thinks he's horrible and hopes she'll divorce him.

I have to say I would hate to see her sacrifice the experience of motherhood for him as well, but for some reason they are staying together, at least for now.  They are actually the only couple I know that did sign a prenup. 

I also wanted to add, you said that she had faulty feminist views.  Well those feminists managed to weasel their way into my marriage too, without me ever consciously following the movement myself.

Let me give you a little more background.  When I met my husband, I fell in love with him fast!  I thought, he's the one, probably within a few weeks, and resolved that as long as all went well, I would be really wonderful to him so he would marry me.  When I was engaged, I was so excited to be marrying the man of my dreams.  During the first three years of our marriage, we were very close and had hardly any problems.  Then we had our first major rough patch. 

He was working and I was going to school, and when I did my master's degree, I was stressed to the MAX.  I was also working part time as a piano teacher.  We were living in a one-bedroom apartment together to save money.  At this time, he also got laid off and got really depressed about it, but he didn't tell me about that.  I started to get really upset because he wasn't keeping up with the housework, as I thought he should do more since he was home more.  I was also feeling resentful from some other unresolved issues that I hadn't yet addressed with him, and we were both super stressed and unhappy and started to really butt heads. 

Since we were still relatively newly married, we had never learned how to resolve conflicts before, and we were both being pretty hurtful to one another, to the point I was feeling miserable.  I ended up turning to my friends for support.  I wasn't meaning to bash him, but as you can tell I am a very open person, and I revealed a lot of what I was struggling with.  I just didn't know what to do and wanted advice. 

They made me doubt my whole marriage!  I know that sounds crazy and like I can't be strong enough to have my own opinions, but they started making me wonder if he was verbally abusive, if I had just chosen a really crappy husband, if I could do so much better, if I could possibly, hopefully, get him to change...

They even said some really horrible things. They were telling me that as a full time student I could hire a lawyer to get a divorce pretty easily.  They even mentioned how one of my adult male students (I was never attracted to him but all the other girls I worked with had a crush on him) was a better match for me and I could probably get him to marry me. 

Do you know how confusing that would be?  Here i was only 26, trying to figure out how to be married, and they were making me feel like I'd be better off divorced.  They made me doubt that I was ever really even happy in my marriage, as I had always excused his faults and imperfections because I figured we are all human.  They asked me why I wanted to stay with him and I said I was worried I'd never find another who was as handsome, as fun to be around (when we weren't fighting), and as awesome in bed.  They downplayed that and acted like those qualities would be super easy to replace.

I did have one friend in a different circle offer me good advice.  I was feeling so confused and unhappy, and I told her about some issues.  She was older than me and a Christian, and she listened and told me that she thought my husband was a good man, and that he was fighting for the exact same thing I was fighting for - love and appreciation.

I told you how I finally started to win the power struggle until he rejected me sexually.  That moment was the first time, even after all the fighting, that really struck fear in my heart that I could lose him.  That changed my attitude really fast! I ended up recognizing my part in the whole mess and apologizing for everything.  He apologized too for his part and we stopped fighting really easily and went back to feeling close.

I am glad we came full circle and I rejected the influence of the other young women.  We ended up pretty- much where we naturally started, although we were stronger, having survived all that.  But I know the whole thing would have been far less painful if I hadn't been so swayed by my friends' views. 

It's a really sad and destructive cycle.  People just cut each other to pieces emotionally, and they imagine they are somehow standing up for themselves or getting important issues out in the open.  A lot of that stuff is better left unsaid.  We are all imperfect.  It's not necessary to be reminded by the person we love the most.  In fact, I would say it's often better to cultivate and support almost mythological beliefs about the person you love.  Why not make them believe they are the most handsome, powerful, virile, potent creature in the universe?  What's the harm in that, especially if you are the one who benefits from his inflated beliefs about his own abilities?  Would you like him to make you feel like a beautiful Goddess capable of experiencing sublime states of romantic ecstasy?  Or would you rather have him pick at you about the way you cook and clean house?  Which approach would come closer to bringing out the best in you?

This is a really good point.  One of the books I read when trying to be a better wife was written in a kind of backlash to feminism in the early 60's.  It said, "what makes women really happy?" 

Is it a great career, hobbies, great friends, accomplishments, children?  Those are all good and fulfilling, but what is the one thing that makes most women feel just wonderful? 

Her answer was "a husband who adores her."  I was like, woah, you would never see that in a book published today.  But I read it and  she had a lot of good advice.  The thing is, husbands who are just bossed around can't possibly adore their wives (at least in most cases).  Husbands understand how women want to feel beautiful and loved, and they often try to praise them for that.  But so many women today don't seem to think it's important to acknowledge all their husbands do that they want to feel appreciated for.  You're right, there is no harm in trying to build up your husband a bit.  It's hard to work so hard and try so hard and feel like you're only being  criticized and rejected for not being good enough, as I have witnessed with several husbands I know of.

[Michellebell]

Well, you don't have to believe the bible was inspired by God to benefit from recommendations on how to follow a model for marriage that has worked for millennia. 

It's unfortunate that so many people reject the biblical model of marriage because they don't believe all the details that they disagree with within the bible.  They end up rejecting the entire thing, rather than consider that there may indeed be some wisdom in it's teachings. 

It's especially weird when "Christians" reject the biblical model of marriage. This strange behavior, which Dalrock has dissected on numerous occasions, demonstrates how deep the rot of feminism has penetrated even supposedly "conservative" parts of society.

You're right, I noticed that as well when I checked out the Dalrock blog.  It's so ironic!  I wonder if the churches worry they'll lose all their members if they do sermons on what the Bible meant by saying to wives to submit to their husbands and saying to husbands to love their wives.

[lazyboy]

The central insight of Buddhism is that human desire invariably leads to suffering.

If you substitute "sin" for "desire", you could almost say that Jesus was a Buddhist in many of his teachings.

Buddhism teaches that as you begin to tame desire, you begin to open yourself up to higher states of awareness and understanding.  Jesus taught that as you turn away from sin and worldly desire, you come closer to God.

The parallels are almost too obvious, and I think that's why both belief systems find such traction among humanity--i.e., they contain underlying truths that help to elevate us from our animal nature.

The issue I have with Buddhism is that you are supposed to let go of your desire for so many things.  You will feel less pain if you feel less attachment, yes.  But you will also enjoy less love and fun in the meantime.  I definitely agree that Christianity and Buddhism are practically the same in many ways.  But I feel like our lives are meant to be loved, first and foremost.  We are to love our spouses and also love ourselves, even if it means loving our flaws.  I have a long way to go before I become Godlike.  I figure it'll happen when I die but I try to thank God for all the blessings He has given me in the meantime and go easy on myself, as a perfect God wouldn't create everything to be perfect except humans.  My views don't really follow any religion, but I thought Jesus and Buddha both were great teachers with unparalleled wisdom.

I appreciate what's being said here and I'd like to suggest a refinement on the Buddhist perspective that's being presented- which may appear at first glance to be saying the same thing. But stay with me here. My understanding of this subject is from studying for a number of years the more esoteric Vajrayana school of Buddhism. Basically this view is: instead of making desire or attachment a "problem" what we want to do is cultivate more equanimity and ideally start to live from that place.  Characterized by the intention (desire): "May all beings live in the Great Equanimity free from all attachment (clinging) and aversion (fear and hatred.)" In developmental psychology "attachment" is certainly a good thing. Healthy, secure attachment is how ideally you want children to be raised. The problem may be in how attachment has been mis-translated. It's more helpful to to start to let go of clinging, fear and hatred. It gets very heavy handed, guilt and shame inducing when we make desire and healthy attachment wrong. They are natural impulses. Why fight the natural. The intent is to alleviate suffering not to cause more of it. The underlying intent is to be free of the causes of suffering; something that all the great religious traditions aspire to.

[Libertarian666]

Well, you don't have to believe the bible was inspired by God to benefit from recommendations on how to follow a model for marriage that has worked for millennia. 

It's unfortunate that so many people reject the biblical model of marriage because they don't believe all the details that they disagree with within the bible.  They end up rejecting the entire thing, rather than consider that there may indeed be some wisdom in it's teachings. 

It's especially weird when "Christians" reject the biblical model of marriage. This strange behavior, which Dalrock has dissected on numerous occasions, demonstrates how deep the rot of feminism has penetrated even supposedly "conservative" parts of society.

You're right, I noticed that as well when I checked out the Dalrock blog.  It's so ironic!  I wonder if the churches worry they'll lose all their members if they do sermons on what the Bible meant by saying to wives to submit to their husbands and saying to husbands to love their wives.

Yes, that is a big part of it.

But another part is the sea of feminism that everyone has been steeping in for the last 30 years or so, as you alluded to in your previous post. They don't even know that they are influenced by feminist ideas because those are just "normal".

[Libertarian666]

This is a really good point.  One of the books I read when trying to be a better wife was written in a kind of backlash to feminism in the early 60's.  It said, "what makes women really happy?" 

Is it a great career, hobbies, great friends, accomplishments, children?  Those are all good and fulfilling, but what is the one thing that makes most women feel just wonderful? 

Her answer was "a husband who adores her."  I was like, woah, you would never see that in a book published today.  But I read it and  she had a lot of good advice.  The thing is, husbands who are just bossed around can't possibly adore their wives (at least in most cases).  Husbands understand how women want to feel beautiful and loved, and they often try to praise them for that.  But so many women today don't seem to think it's important to acknowledge all their husbands do that they want to feel appreciated for.  You're right, there is no harm in trying to build up your husband a bit.  It's hard to work so hard and try so hard and feel like you're only being  criticized and rejected for not being good enough, as I have witnessed with several husbands I know of.

And it is so easy for a wife to have a husband who adores her.

Here's how to do it, assuming reasonable health and sanity for both partners.

1. Have frequent sex with him. You don't have to initiate it (although there is nothing wrong with that), as he will be happy to do that if he doesn't fear rejection.
2. Thank him for what he does for you so that you can feel safe and loved.
3. Keep yourself in good shape. Obviously people don't look the same after many years have passed, but he won't notice your aging very much (if at all) if you maintain your figure, keep your hair the way he likes it, etc.
4. Spend quality time with him.

That's about it. How hard is that?

[Michellebell]

And it is so easy for a wife to have a husband who adores her.

Here's how to do it, assuming reasonable health and sanity for both partners.

1. Have frequent sex with him. You don't have to initiate it (although there is nothing wrong with that), as he will be happy to do that if he doesn't fear rejection. 

This is actually quite easy for women.  Even if she's not in the mood, she can still give him good sex.  Once they start, it's usually pretty easy for the woman to get into it.  Besides, most of the time, the man is doing most of the work.  Often if I'm not in the mood but go ahead and have sex, I end up having a great time and feeling so much closer and also more cheerful afterwards.

This can't work in reverse.  If he's not feeling it, it's much harder to make it happen because of the basic mechanics of it

2. Thank him for what he does for you so that you can feel safe and loved.

I think a lot of men feel taken for granted.  Their wives think they shouldn't have to thank them for doing something that is not considered above and beyond the normal expectations of modern life.  However I figure, women are stressed today because they feel they have to do so many things (have a career, raise kids, take care of housework, etc.), but at the same time, they are recognized and admired for their contributions in all these areas.  But men have  less that they gain their sense of pride from.  For the most part, I'd say it's their career/ ability to provide.  That's why it's so hard on men emotionally when they lose their jobs.  If a woman loses her job, she may still have motherhood, or other sources of pride.  She may feel the pressure to find a new job for monetary reasons, but I don't feel it's linked to her ego as strongly.  Some men may hate their jobs but try very hard to tolerate it and/or take steps to move up, but they come home to not only be given no thanks for their sacrifices but also scolded for not doing enough at home. 

3. Keep yourself in good shape. Obviously people don't look the same after many years have passed, but he won't notice your aging very much (if at all) if you maintain your figure, keep your hair the way he likes it, etc.

I don't know what's really going on with this one.  Americans are just getting fat.  I can't relate to that problem as I don't think I could get fat if I tried. I always look thin again within weeks of giving birth, and I weigh the same as I did when I was 19.  If I get stressed and "let myself go," I get too skinny by being too busy to eat and only eating unhealthy food.  When that happens I have to make a conscious effort to eat a LOT of healthy food to get back to normal again.

But I know that's not the norm here in America.  I definitely don't buy that childbearing makes a woman overweight as I have not seen that even in other women.  Many mothers I see at the pool look great to me, just as thin as before kids.  I also work with two teachers who had kids and lost the baby weight completely but then gradually gained weight over the next few years to the point where they now weigh more than they did when they were nine months pregnant. 

However a lot of men are really out of shape now too, so I think this goes both ways for sure.  I agree that both spouses should encourage and help one another to stay physically healthy. 

As far as hairstyles go, I wouldn't keep a haircut I knew my husband hated.  I don't see anything wrong with considering your spouse's preferences, but a lot of people perceive it as degrading to limit their personal style to within the preferences of their spouse.

4. Spend quality time with him.

Quality time is really important, but I don't think people understand how simple this is.  For us, we have very little time as we have three little kids.  We also don't have a lot of money to spare on dates and the extra babysitting for the dates.  What I notice is that the interactions we do have can be either positive or negative, and I have a great deal of control over this.  I can spend the little time we have complaining about how I'm not getting enough ____ from him, or I can be glad to have the attention from him that I'm getting.  I know that the more I gripe about things, the less he wants to be around me.  I also notice that my husband doesn't generally feel inclined to gripe at me about little things.  Usually he wants to get along, and if he does have an issue with me, he's pretty gentle about it.

Also he can sometimes be grouchy because of unrelated things (bad day at work, an unexpected bill, etc.) but I can either amplify it or help him diffuse it.  If I just express some sympathy and stay back for a bit, he usually calms down really fast and then apologizes for being so grouchy, and then Is ready to enjoy some time together.

That's about it. How hard is that?

It's really not hard.  But it goes against so much of the advice out there.  It's like an uphill battle for many women to discover this and many never figure it out and miss out on all the benefits of having a really loving, appreciative husband. 

[Mountaineer]

It all boils down to:  You catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar (one of my grandmother's sayings). 

... M

[Michellebell]

It all boils down to:  You catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar (one of my grandmother's sayings). 

... M

So the question is, how do we teach girls this lesson without coming across as misogynist?  My husband recently was saying how he wants all of our children to be independent, "especially the girls," he said.  I definitely understand why he said it.  We are so afraid that by teaching girls to treat their husbands unselfishly, we will be encouraging them to grovel for abusive and oppressive men.

It seems like a fine line, really.  We don't want women to tolerate mistreatment, but our culture has gone really far in convincing women that they shouldn't ever treat their husband  nicely unless he fully earned that privilege.  I think a lot of women feel they shouldn't give sex to their husband unless he "deserves" it, not realizing that his irritability may completely go away if she gave sex willingly. 

I think that men can't teach women the value of this kind of advice very easily.  They would come across as selfish and uninterested in her happiness.  I think women need to be the ones to teach this lesson to other women. 

I also think we need to be more open to children growing up about sex.  I was talking about this with my brother-in-law last night, saying how I have honestly answered all of my oldest daughter's questions about how babies are made.  She has seen me pregnant twice since she was born so naturally she was curious.  I was saying how I'd rather her know the truth before hearing all the talk and speculations of other kids to avoid confusion.  He didn't agree with the benefits of talking about it so honestly.  He said he figures they'll figure it out anyway so there's little point to it.

However I was reading recently about how some people grew up and learned what rape was before they learned what sex was.  I also think that some people (especially the women with lower sex drives) may believe that sexual desire must be dirty or evil because if it weren't, their parents wouldn't have been so afraid to talk about it with them.  They grew up basically thinking the entire subject was taboo. 

Furthermore, how could I feel comfortable giving my daughters marital advice if I had never been able to even teach them about the subject growing up?  I know it might be awkward, but I don't think these subjects should be avoided.  Also, I want to feel comfortable teaching them about the downside to promiscuity before marriage, and I want them to take my views seriously.

[Gabe]

Which elements of this dynamic in a marriage do you feel the man has some control over, i.e. how do you get a wife that isn't putting out to start putting out again? Or how do you prevent the marriage from degenerating to this point in the first place?

It's of course horribly dysfunctional to actually hold a relationship hostage, but it seems to me that insofar as a woman perceives her husband is choosing to be with her and *could* walk away if he changed his mind, she'd be a lot less likely to withdraw sex? So working to stay attractive to women in general would be a helpful preventative measure. Or am I just naive?

[Michellebell]

Which elements of this dynamic in a marriage do you feel the man has some control over, i.e. how do you get a wife that isn't putting out to start putting out again? Or how do you prevent the marriage from degenerating to this point in the first place?

It's of course horribly dysfunctional to actually hold a relationship hostage, but it seems to me that insofar as a woman perceives her husband is choosing to be with her and *could* walk away if he changed his mind, she'd be a lot less likely to withdraw sex? So working to stay attractive to women in general would be a helpful preventative measure. Or am I just naive?

Gabe, that's a good question.  From what you described about your girlfriend, I don't see that happening to you. 

I think the best bet though is choosing a wife who takes her husband's sex drive seriously.  My husband made a big mistake of marrying his first wife.  Even though he was very attractive and always had no trouble with women, she withheld sex from him.  It was the biggest problem he had with her, and he told her flat-out that he would divorce her if she didn't change.  I guess she thought it was an empty threat.  She still wasn't willing to give him sex more than about once a month (plus she was a chronic liar and just difficult to be around, and she cheated on him when they were engaged) so after a period of waiting, he went ahead and filed.  He was really angry at both her and himself for marrying her, and she begged him not to divorce her at that point, but he was done.

So there's an example right there of threatening to leave due to withholding sex and it not working.  Again, he was really dumb to marry her.

I just found an article here about women losing their libido: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... rging.html

The thing is, i admit I have little sympathy for these women.  Sex is a choice.  She can easily give it to him even if she's not particularly feeling in the mood, out of a desire to keep him happy.  Our sex drives go up and down all the time.  I haven't been fertile in about 18 months due to breastfeeding and pregnancy, but I have still been giving sex to my husband. 

Now I DO know what it feels like to lose absolutely ALL pleasure from sex, which happened during my second pregnancy.  If something like that happens again that may be more lasting, you bet I'll be working toward a solution.  Honestly though I don't think I'll ever experience a dip that low again.  I was very nauseous the whole time and just the smells from my own body made me want to vomit.  Just going to the bathroom was hard for me.

Excuses like being busy or tired require a rethinking of priorities.  It's like, you can choose to love someone, choose to be happy even.  I think it might have been MediumTex who had the analogy a while back of a woman giving sex kind of like a man watching a movie with his wife that he wouldn't have chosen on his own, but ends up finding that the whole experience is fun and bonding.  She just needs to say okay for the sake of caring about her marriage.

So I would agree with you.  I think the man's responsibility is to stay attractive and communicate clearly that frequency is important.  I think the article also said that the more you do it, the more you both want to do it.  So getting used to going without is a vicious cycle. 

[Michellebell]

Which elements of this dynamic in a marriage do you feel the man has some control over, i.e. how do you get a wife that isn't putting out to start putting out again? Or how do you prevent the marriage from degenerating to this point in the first place?

It's of course horribly dysfunctional to actually hold a relationship hostage, but it seems to me that insofar as a woman perceives her husband is choosing to be with her and *could* walk away if he changed his mind, she'd be a lot less likely to withdraw sex? So working to stay attractive to women in general would be a helpful preventative measure. Or am I just naive?

No, that is absolutely correct. The fact that men who have choices are more attractive is called "pre-selection". This is an evolved optimization mechanism in the female firmware to avoid having to do all the work of figuring out whether a man is attractive; if other women find him attractive, then he is attractive.

The reason this is necessary for women but not for men is because men's attraction triggers are mostly visual: shining hair, clear skin, correct hip-waist ratio, big bust, firm flesh. So men don't need anyone else to help them figure out if women are attractive.

Women, on the other hand, have more complex attraction triggers. Besides the visible ones, there are status, power and money. So if a woman sees other women falling all over an ordinary looking guy, they infer (possibly subconsciously) that he must be special somehow other than in looks.

That's so funny, I've never heard the term "pre-selection" before, but I'd definitely say it's true.  Women  do NOT want to be with men they think other women wouldn't want.  And yes, we care about a lot more than just looks. 

That's why it was so hard on me when I was going through that rough time with my husband seven years ago and so many of my friends acted like I could do better.  But I was still attracted to him and still felt that other women found him attractive .

Anyway, knowing your spouse has options is a good thing.  The little bit of jealousy or fear that you feel encourages you to be your best self.