Gyroscopic Investing

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:32 pm**

Don't want this to detract from my other posts today, but...

Yep, I am a physician who found myself dating an anti-vax woman. Vehement. Most of her arguments I find pretty lame. A few are of merit and need some research. Anyone looked into this a lot and have some opinions grounded in strong science?

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:44 pm**

No, but even though I'm pro-vax, I'm curious:
Which of her arguments did you find to be "of merit"?

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:06 pm**

Mainly the payouts of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I think I understand why this was set up, since all of the law suits generated in the 1980's by the purported DPT-autism link about eliminated all vaccine manufacturing in this country. But the fact that this still exists at this point seems to give credence to the "vaccines do harm" camp, so it may defeat the purpose. Not sure why manufacturers don't just increase the price to cover litigation, like they do with other drugs. Probably has to do with the fact that vaccines are not highly profitable (unlike Lipitor, for example), and they are mandated in some arenas for public health. So the government helps make sure that the companies stay in production and are partly protected from capricious juries.

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:27 pm**

You should tell her that vaccine paranoia is actually a poorly understood side effect of water fluoridation, and the only treatment that has shown any promise in treating the condition is very high levels of physical intimacy with a romantic partner.

You should then serenade her with the Kiss classic "Dr. Love."

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:55 pm**

Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:20 pm**

Reub wrote: Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!

Well, I guess you don't have to worry about getting a needle from a black doctor.

But seriously. MG is a great guy. I just don't understand why his recommendation has more weight than pretty much every physician out there.
I'd rather see the effects of DDT than malaria.
And, I'd rather risk a rash from a vaccine than be confined to a wheelchair because I contracted polio.

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:29 pm**

BearBones, you and your ladyfriend might find this page interesting.
http://skepdic.com/refuge/bunk24.html

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:51 pm**

So vaccines are settled science too?

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am**

Reub wrote: So vaccines are settled science too?

Polio did not go away by itself.

Though bugs are evolving immunities to our vaccines, I don't think there can be any doubt of their efficacy with regard to the initial target, the original bug. Now we have to evolve with them, not return to medieval times.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:34 am**

The anti-vax movement is a sign of the individualist times. Of course vaccines can cause problems in certain cases for certain people. There are documented examples and even a federal fund to compensate victims, as pointed out. That's the drawback. The benefit is personal and herd immunity to horrible diseases. Being vaccinated involves accepting a small personal risk in exchange for large personal and societal benefits. And the personal benefit grows the more people don't get vaccinated; herd immunity falls, and your personal immunity from the vaccine will have to actually step up and do its job.

Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society. And even on an individual level, if you are even remotely capable of weighing risk vs reward, getting vaccinated is a no-brainer. You're going to need your personal immunity if eradicable diseases break out due to the anti-vax movement.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:40 am**

Pointedstick wrote: The anti-vax movement is a sign of the individualist times. Of course vaccines can cause problems in certain cases for certain people. There are documented examples and even a federal fund to compensate victims, as pointed out. That's the drawback. The benefit is personal and herd immunity to horrible diseases. Being vaccinated involves accepting a small personal risk in exchange for large personal and societal benefits. And the personal benefit grows the more people don't get vaccinated; herd immunity falls, and your personal immunity from the vaccine will have to actually step up and do its job.

Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society. And even on an individual level, if you are even remotely capable of weighing risk vs reward, getting vaccinated is a no-brainer. You're going to need your personal immunity if eradicable diseases break out due to the anti-vax movement.

I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:48 am**

If a child who is too young to be vaccinated comes into contact with an older non-vaccinated child, the younger child can be put at risk. So, if parents of non-vaccinated children bring them to public parks or other public spaces where they come into contact with other children, it's a bit irresponsible.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:53 am**

Libertarian666 wrote: I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

Who said anything about fines or imprisonment? I'm pretty sure all vaccines are voluntary.

Culturally, we also have a duty to reproduce, but there's no baby police locking up childless couples or bachelors.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:31 am**

Some times I wonder about the new adjuvants and related technology they are bringing into the mix that will show problems more distinctly further down the road. Although I identify with one side of this argument, I do think there is a small area of uncertainty. Also, just think about the flu vaccine, weak link to Guillain-Barre, but if you are of of the people.... might have preferred a simple flu episode.

PS Not sure if your asking this as well but my two cents would be to not become involved seriously with those that don't share similar / fundamental view points in life.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am**

4x4 wrote: PS Not sure if your asking this as well but my two cents would be to not become involved seriously with those that don't share similar / fundamental view points in life.

No I did not ask that!

But actually I agree.

Tricky when 75-90% beliefs shared, some uncommon, and 10-25% don't.

Thank you all for participating.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:00 pm**

Pointedstick wrote: Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society.

While I agree, I can see the other side, since it is a restriction on personal liberty. Same sentiment as resenting taxation. Or restrictions on buying weapons of mass destruction, etc.

In order to live in a society we tacitly agree to certain things that are in the best interest for all (hopefully, but certainly not always), even if it restrict personal freedoms. One can always move to a different country if you feel oppressed, I suppose, so you actually have a choice. I choose to live in the US. But that could change if Trump is elected

Ha! That will get this going! Watch this now. This will have hundreds of posts, and my question on commission free trades of treasuries will stop with 6, half of which are mine.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:38 pm**

Ideally all of this stuff works if we like our society. When that's the case, taking a small personal hit in order to protect or improve the society seems like a good bargain. When people don't like their society, or feel oppressed by it, or feel like aliens in it or feel like it doesn't return them as much as they're giving up, or whatever, that's when you start needing big government to bludgeon people into doing things with threats of violence for non-compliance. This is kind of the thing that Craig refers to when he talks about how diverse societies require big government. It seems true.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:58 pm**

Libertarian666 wrote: It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

This is a common fallacy. When large numbers of people refuse vaccinations, outbreaks occur (most recently: measles), spawning new mutations which can eventually affect the vaccinated. It's not a crime, but a victimless decision it is not.

related: http://shotofprevention.com/2011/04/12/ ... accinated/

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:19 pm**

Libertarian666 wrote: I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

Agree with dualstow. But also some diseases such as pertussis can still infect and kill a child before the immunity is conferred from vaccination. Just doesn't happen very often because it is rare in our population. Because of... vaccines.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:33 pm**

Reub wrote: Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!

Me too. I also quit taking statins, started following the permanent supplement regime, the permanent tooth care regime, and the permanent hydration regime.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:44 pm**

Fred wrote:
Reub wrote: Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!
Me too. I also quit taking statins, started following the permanent supplement regime, the permanent tooth care regime, and the permanent hydration regime.

Don't forget to make sure your images fit, if you choose to post a picture.

... M

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:38 pm**

Pointedstick wrote: Ideally all of this stuff works if we like our society. When that's the case, taking a small personal hit in order to protect or improve the society seems like a good bargain. When people don't like their society, or feel oppressed by it, or feel like aliens in it or feel like it doesn't return them as much as they're giving up, or whatever, that's when you start needing big government to bludgeon people into doing things with threats of violence for non-compliance. This is kind of the thing that Craig refers to when he talks about how diverse societies require big government. It seems true.

So what you are saying is that a dictator has no choice but to enforce his dictates by violence.

This is true... so long as you have a dictator.

In other words, we don't need big government to do anything because we don't need it at all. Anything that can only be done by big government, such as throwing peaceful people in prison for possessing a plant, should not be done.

Posted: **Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:39 pm**

So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society? Where does it say that?

Posted: **Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:49 am**

Reub wrote: So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society? Where does it say that?

Has your doctor asked you to be vaccinated against any kind of diseases lately?

Mine hasn't.

It seems like this is a 100% hypothetical and academic discussion for most of us.

Posted: **Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:35 am**

MediumTex wrote:
Reub wrote: So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society? Where does it say that?
Has your doctor asked you to be vaccinated against any kind of diseases lately?

Mine hasn't.

It seems like this is a 100% hypothetical and academic discussion for most of us.

Shingles. Pneumonia. Flu.

... Mountaineer

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