Vaccines

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Pointedstick
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:53 am

Libertarian666 wrote: I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.
Who said anything about fines or imprisonment? I'm pretty sure all vaccines are voluntary.

Culturally, we also have a duty to reproduce, but there's no baby police locking up childless couples or bachelors.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by 4x4 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:31 am

Some times I wonder about the new adjuvants and related technology they are bringing into the mix that will show problems more distinctly further down the road.  Although I identify with one side of this argument, I do think there is a small area of uncertainty.  Also, just think about the flu vaccine, weak link to Guillain-Barre, but if you are of of the people.... might have preferred a simple flu episode.

PS Not sure if your asking this as well but my two cents would be to not become involved seriously with those that don't share similar / fundamental view points in life.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by BearBones » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am

4x4 wrote: PS Not sure if your asking this as well but my two cents would be to not become involved seriously with those that don't share similar / fundamental view points in life.
No I did not ask that!

But actually I agree.  ;) Tricky when 75-90% beliefs shared, some uncommon, and 10-25% don't.

Thank you all for participating.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by BearBones » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:00 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society.
While I agree, I can see the other side, since it is a restriction on personal liberty. Same sentiment as resenting taxation. Or restrictions on buying weapons of mass destruction, etc.

In order to live in a society we tacitly agree to certain things that are in the best interest for all (hopefully, but certainly not always), even if it restrict personal freedoms. One can always move to a different country if you feel oppressed, I suppose, so you actually have a choice. I choose to live in the US. But that could change if Trump is elected  ;) Ha! That will get this going! Watch this now. This will have hundreds of posts, and my question on commission free trades of treasuries will stop with 6, half of which are mine.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:38 pm

Ideally all of this stuff works if we like our society. When that's the case, taking a small personal hit in order to protect or improve the society seems like a good bargain. When people don't like their society, or feel oppressed by it, or feel like aliens in it or feel like it doesn't return them as much as they're giving up, or whatever, that's when you start needing big government to bludgeon people into doing things with threats of violence for non-compliance. This is kind of the thing that Craig refers to when he talks about how diverse societies require big government. It seems true.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by dualstow » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:58 pm

Libertarian666 wrote: It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.
This is a common fallacy. When large numbers of people refuse vaccinations, outbreaks occur (most recently: measles), spawning new mutations which can eventually affect the vaccinated. It's not a crime, but a victimless decision it is not.

related: http://shotofprevention.com/2011/04/12/ ... accinated/
Last edited by dualstow on Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BearBones
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Re: Vaccines

Post by BearBones » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:19 pm

Libertarian666 wrote: I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.
Agree with dualstow. But also some diseases such as pertussis can still infect and kill a child before the immunity is conferred from vaccination. Just doesn't happen very often because it is rare in our population. Because of... vaccines.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Fred » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:33 pm

Reub wrote: Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!
Me too. I also quit taking statins, started following the permanent supplement regime, the permanent tooth care regime, and the permanent hydration regime.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:44 pm

Fred wrote:
Reub wrote: Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!
Me too. I also quit taking statins, started following the permanent supplement regime, the permanent tooth care regime, and the permanent hydration regime.
Don't forget to make sure your images fit, if you choose to post a picture.  ;)

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Re: Vaccines

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:38 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Ideally all of this stuff works if we like our society. When that's the case, taking a small personal hit in order to protect or improve the society seems like a good bargain. When people don't like their society, or feel oppressed by it, or feel like aliens in it or feel like it doesn't return them as much as they're giving up, or whatever, that's when you start needing big government to bludgeon people into doing things with threats of violence for non-compliance. This is kind of the thing that Craig refers to when he talks about how diverse societies require big government. It seems true.
So what you are saying is that a dictator has no choice but to enforce his dictates by violence.

This is true... so long as you have a dictator.

In other words, we don't need big government to do anything because we don't need it at all. Anything that can only be done by big government, such as throwing peaceful people in prison for possessing a plant, should not be done.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Reub » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:39 pm

So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society?  Where does it say that?
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Re: Vaccines

Post by MediumTex » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:49 am

Reub wrote: So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society?  Where does it say that?
Has your doctor asked you to be vaccinated against any kind of diseases lately?

Mine hasn't.

It seems like this is a 100% hypothetical and academic discussion for most of us.
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