Vaccines

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BearBones
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Vaccines

Post by BearBones » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:32 pm

Don't want this to detract from my other posts today, but...  ;)

Yep, I am a physician who found myself dating an anti-vax woman. Vehement. Most of her arguments I find pretty lame. A few are of merit and need some research. Anyone looked into this a lot and have some opinions grounded in strong science?
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dualstow
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Re: Vaccines

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:44 pm

No, but even though I'm pro-vax, I'm curious:
Which of her arguments did you find to be "of merit"?
loot "goods taken from an enemy, etc.," 1839, Anglo-Indian, from Hindi lut, from Sanskrit loptram, lotram "booty, stolen property,"fm. PIE root *reup- "to snatch"
curfew - early 14c., curfeu, "evening signal, ringing of a bell at a fixed hour" as a signal to extinguish fires and lights, ... from Old French cuevrefeu, literally "cover fire"
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BearBones
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Re: Vaccines

Post by BearBones » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:06 pm

Mainly the payouts of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I think I understand why this was set up, since all of the law suits generated in the 1980's by the purported DPT-autism link about eliminated all vaccine manufacturing in this country. But the fact that this still exists at this point seems to give credence to the "vaccines do harm" camp, so it may defeat the purpose. Not sure why manufacturers don't just increase the price to cover litigation, like they do with other drugs. Probably has to do with the fact that vaccines are not highly profitable (unlike Lipitor, for example), and they are mandated in some arenas for public health. So the government helps make sure that the companies stay in production and are partly protected from capricious juries.
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MediumTex
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Re: Vaccines

Post by MediumTex » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:27 pm

You should tell her that vaccine paranoia is actually a poorly understood side effect of water fluoridation, and the only treatment that has shown any promise in treating the condition is very high levels of physical intimacy with a romantic partner.

You should then serenade her with the Kiss classic "Dr. Love."
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Reub
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Reub » Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:55 pm

Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!
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dualstow
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Re: Vaccines

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:20 pm

Reub wrote: Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!
Well, I guess you don't have to worry about getting a needle from a black doctor.

But seriously. MG is a great guy. I just don't understand why his recommendation has more weight than pretty much every physician out there.
I'd rather see the effects of DDT than malaria.
And, I'd rather risk a rash from a vaccine than be confined to a wheelchair because I contracted polio.
Last edited by dualstow on Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
loot "goods taken from an enemy, etc.," 1839, Anglo-Indian, from Hindi lut, from Sanskrit loptram, lotram "booty, stolen property,"fm. PIE root *reup- "to snatch"
curfew - early 14c., curfeu, "evening signal, ringing of a bell at a fixed hour" as a signal to extinguish fires and lights, ... from Old French cuevrefeu, literally "cover fire"
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dualstow
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Re: Vaccines

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:29 pm

BearBones, you and your ladyfriend might find this page interesting.
http://skepdic.com/refuge/bunk24.html
loot "goods taken from an enemy, etc.," 1839, Anglo-Indian, from Hindi lut, from Sanskrit loptram, lotram "booty, stolen property,"fm. PIE root *reup- "to snatch"
curfew - early 14c., curfeu, "evening signal, ringing of a bell at a fixed hour" as a signal to extinguish fires and lights, ... from Old French cuevrefeu, literally "cover fire"
Reub
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Reub » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:51 pm

So vaccines are settled science too?
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dualstow
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Re: Vaccines

Post by dualstow » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Reub wrote: So vaccines are settled science too?
Polio did not go away by itself.

Though bugs are evolving immunities to our vaccines, I don't think there can be any doubt of their efficacy with regard to the initial target, the original bug. Now we have to evolve with them, not return to medieval times.
loot "goods taken from an enemy, etc.," 1839, Anglo-Indian, from Hindi lut, from Sanskrit loptram, lotram "booty, stolen property,"fm. PIE root *reup- "to snatch"
curfew - early 14c., curfeu, "evening signal, ringing of a bell at a fixed hour" as a signal to extinguish fires and lights, ... from Old French cuevrefeu, literally "cover fire"
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Re: Vaccines

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:34 am

The anti-vax movement is a sign of the individualist times. Of course vaccines can cause problems in certain cases for certain people. There are documented examples and even a federal fund to compensate victims, as pointed out. That's the drawback. The benefit is personal and herd immunity to horrible diseases. Being vaccinated involves accepting a small personal risk in exchange for large personal and societal benefits. And the personal benefit grows the more people don't get vaccinated; herd immunity falls, and your personal immunity from the vaccine will have to actually step up and do its job.

Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society. And even on an individual level, if you are even remotely capable of weighing risk vs reward, getting vaccinated is a no-brainer. You're going to need your personal immunity if eradicable diseases break out due to the anti-vax movement.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by technovelist » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:40 am

Pointedstick wrote: The anti-vax movement is a sign of the individualist times. Of course vaccines can cause problems in certain cases for certain people. There are documented examples and even a federal fund to compensate victims, as pointed out. That's the drawback. The benefit is personal and herd immunity to horrible diseases. Being vaccinated involves accepting a small personal risk in exchange for large personal and societal benefits. And the personal benefit grows the more people don't get vaccinated; herd immunity falls, and your personal immunity from the vaccine will have to actually step up and do its job.

Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society. And even on an individual level, if you are even remotely capable of weighing risk vs reward, getting vaccinated is a no-brainer. You're going to need your personal immunity if eradicable diseases break out due to the anti-vax movement.
I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.
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Re: Vaccines

Post by jafs » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:48 am

If a child who is too young to be vaccinated comes into contact with an older non-vaccinated child, the younger child can be put at risk.  So, if parents of non-vaccinated children bring them to public parks or other public spaces where they come into contact with other children, it's a bit irresponsible.
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