Crazy Doctor Talk

[Libertarian666]

Well, maybe so.

But as patients, we want smart, well-educated but also compassionate doctors who know how to listen to/talk to their patients about health issues, don't we?

Honestly, I just want a doctor that isn't going to go concierge the MOMENT he can.

This issue is entirely due to government intervention in health care. The paperwork and regulations are just too onerous for good doctors to put up with.

[barrett]

Sorry you are having a bad experience, Tex. We can see you have a lot of anger here, and I am sure you can find some likeminded to commiserate with here. But can we move this thread to the "I have a lot of anger and I need to vent by saying a lot of parochial, inflammatory comments" discussion section? What does this have to do with the PP? Moderator?

Well, at this point, this thread has nothing at all to do with the PP. And MT is not really angry, I don't think. He might even throw down some bad physician rap lyrics before the night is out.

[MediumTex]

... people like me (lifelong non-assholes  )...

Not really congruous with:

My impression of medical school has always been to make sure that geeky science-types who are also assholes will have a career path.  I didn't think that the "wise and humble healer" ideal had that much to do with it.

What we're headed for is a world where the regular people are going have to settle for seeing the arrogant jerks when they get sick.

Sorry you are having a bad experience, Tex. We can see you have a lot of anger here, and I am sure you can find some likeminded to commiserate with here. But can we move this thread to the "I have a lot of anger and I need to vent by saying a lot of parochial, inflammatory comments" discussion section? What does this have to do with the PP? Moderator?

I wasn't using the term "asshole" as an insult.  I just meant it as a descriptive term.

Are you seriously saying you don't know what I'm talking about with a lot of doctors and lawyers and the effect their training and professional lives have on their personalities?

If people within professions are knee-jerk responsive to criticisms of their profession, how does the profession ever get better?  You completely bypassed every one of my observations and criticisms of the medical profession and put it back on me as simply the expression of misplaced anger.  That's a weird thing to do, and sort of reinforces the argument I am making about a certain type of personality that can't deal with criticism, even when it's fair and well-supported.  What started this side discussion is our disgruntled vampire med student who talked about how messed up the system seems, which was then supported by WiseOne with the faux pep talk that basically went: "If you think it sucks now, just wait."

If anyone has some unresolved professional emotions, I would say that Mr. Smiley Blood Drinker is the guy to talk to.  I'm just making observations.  Don't take it personally.  I didn't mean it that way at all.

[MediumTex]

Sorry you are having a bad experience, Tex. We can see you have a lot of anger here, and I am sure you can find some likeminded to commiserate with here. But can we move this thread to the "I have a lot of anger and I need to vent by saying a lot of parochial, inflammatory comments" discussion section? What does this have to do with the PP? Moderator?

Well, at this point, this thread has nothing at all to do with the PP. And MT is not really angry, I don't think. He might even throw down some bad physician rap lyrics before the night is out.

Adaptation of Ice Cube's classic "Gotta Say it Was a Good Day":

Just waking up in the morning gotta get outta bed
But today seems like I'm pullin' a sled
I get to the hospital because that's my cut
But try as I might, I felt like I was in a rut
No griping from the patients, no meetings, no sorting the dead
And the cafeteria served a hot breakfast with fresh bread

I got my grub on, but didn't pig out
Finally got a call from a nurse I want to take out
She said we'll hook it up later and then I could hit the do'
All I could say was I didn't know
Started feeling bad, thinking to myself: "Will I live another twenty fo'?"

I gotta go try out my new stethoscope
And when I put it on my dome, it's like a cowboy with a new rope
But I had to stop at a procedural red light
Looking in my mirror I got mucus and fever, I'm a sight
And let me tell you brother, when I went to the bathroom everything wasn't alright

I got a beep from the ER, cause they'd been busy there all night
Called up the blood crew and I said: "What you up to G?"
"Got two tows to tag and then I'm gonna be free."
"We'll see" is what I said with a chuckle
Try to leave when it's busy and you're usually in trouble
Last week I fucked around and got scheduled on a triple double
Got colleagues watching everywhere like a Trapper John army, not subtle
I can't believe it though, today was a sick day

They sent me home and I went straight to the shower, not on the ball
Didn't even give me no static about being on call
Cause just yesterday them fools tried to blast me
Saw the mucus in my throat today, and they rolled right past me
No flexin', didn't even look in my direction as I walked through the lobby
Went to my homey Doogie Howser's, cause chillin' with him is my hobby

What's the haps on the craps is what I said from the comfort of my sneakers
Shake 'em up, shake 'em up, shake 'em up, shake 'em like they're beakers
Roll 'em in a circle of med students and watch me break 'em
With the seven, seven-eleven, seven-eleven
Seven even when a paramedic tried to step up
Sorry scrubs, still a no go
I picked up the cash flow
Then we played bones, and I'm yellin' domino
Plus nobody I know from the hospital is lookin' for me
Today was a sick day

Left Howser's house well-paid
Picked up a journal article been tryin' to read since the Stone Age
It's ironic, I had the time and the desire
If I'd been a cat, I would have been a coughing Cheshire
I flipped through the pages
Just chillin' with myself and the thoughts of the sages
And my reading went deep, so deep it put my ass to sleep

Woke myself up around one, was my sick leave done?
The phone rang.  "Can you work? Can you work?" The voice said
Sorry baby, I'd love to make you famous, but I'm still sick, and it's gone to my head
Cut the line to the mother ship and I'm coasting
Took another sip of the potion, hit the three-wheel motion

I was glad everything had worked out
Dropped my script off at the medicine shop, then I chirped out
Today was like one of those fly dreams
Didn't even see a berry turned meat wagon flashing those high beams

No Careflight helicopter looking for a murder
Two in the morning, got me a fat burger
Even saw the lights of the Goodyear Blimp
And it read "That sick doctor is a pimp!"

Full as hell but no throwing up
Half way home and my pager still blowing up
But I didn't answer
Today I didn't even have to think about the soul I sold cheap
I got to say it was a sick day

[WiseOne]

Dunno about lawyer training, but medical training and the basic reality of patient interaction (i.e. that you pretty much have to treat patients like plutonium bombs) adds up to some pretty serious stress.  You have to be the type of person who can take it all in stride and not let it get to you.  A deep well of natural optimism and self-confidence is needed also.  What's amazing is the number of doctors who have all those traits - but of course, many don't.

So is it any surprise that adding a lot more stress is not working out too well?  It's not too surprising, MT, that two doctors of your acquaintenance have exited stage right in the past two years.  Sadly that trend will continue.  And yes, maybe it is the nicer/sensitive people who are less likely to hold out.

[MediumTex]

Dunno about lawyer training, but medical training and the basic reality of patient interaction (i.e. that you pretty much have to treat patients like plutonium bombs) adds up to some pretty serious stress.  You have to be the type of person who can take it all in stride and not let it get to you.  A deep well of natural optimism and self-confidence is needed also.  What's amazing is the number of doctors who have all those traits - but of course, many don't.

So is it any surprise that adding a lot more stress is not working out too well?  It's not too surprising, MT, that two doctors of your acquaintenance have exited stage right in the past two years.  Sadly that trend will continue.  And yes, maybe it is the nicer/sensitive people who are less likely to hold out.

A lot of my comments were directed to the laughing vampire med student in response to his criticism of how doctors are trained, and the qualities that (according to him) medical school cultivates.

Good physicians are inspiring in the way they translate science and a vast body of knowledge and experience into favorable treatment outcomes.  I've known many, and I have nothing but good things to say about them.

Other physicians are less inspiring in the way they have allowed the insurance industry, drug companies and government to completely wreck their ability to practice their profession, often without them even realizing it because (I believe) their egos don't have the ability to comprehend going from owning the auto shop to simply working as a mechanic.

I think that as a group U.S. physicians are a group of remarkable people.  I just feel like a big ego can be a double-edged sword--it can get you through difficult experiences, but it can also blind you to what's going on around you when it doesn't match what you think you know about it.  I have dealt with physicians in a surprising number of settings, and the one thing that I can always count on is an attitude of: "I know.  I got it.", even when it was clear that they hadn't gotten it yet.  When you are trying to provide professional services to these people it can be maddening--e.g., trying to set up a retirement plan for a medical practice. 

I once had the owner of a medium-sized medical practice pay his legal bill by marking through the amount he had been billed and reducing it so that it matched the reduction from his normal fees that Medicare reimbursed.  It was something like a 30-40% reduction.  It seemed like a silly and bizarre thing to do (is that what he does at the grocery store?), but an older attorney said he had seen that sort of thing before from doctors when it came time to pay their bills.  That's just pure arrogance there.  No other word for it.

I personally know a lot of doctors who are parents of my kids' friends, and most of them seem like pretty good people.  I once had a long and interesting conversation with one of them who is a cardiologist about what happens after you die.  Another one is so aloof that not making eye contact seems to be a game he plays with the world, though his wife says that when alone he is a complete tyrant.

I once heard a business school professor talking about what it's like teaching an MBA course for physicians.  She said the biggest difference from most students was what happened when the doctors turned in something late.  When the doctors explained the reason that they had to turn it in late and found out that it would nevertheless reduce their grade because it was late, the professor said they would often become completely enraged, lecturing her at length about how hard they worked as physicians.  She said one of them beat his fists on her desk and promised to have her fired.

My final anecdote concerns a surgeon who went to law school and who was in a bar exam review course with me.  This guy was about 50 or so and drove a $100k car and spent most of his free time explaining to anyone who would listen how women should not be permitted to be surgeons because they simply weren't capable of doing the work and people were dying unnecessarily because of it.  Those were awkward conversations because he had a look on his face as he was talking like if you didn't sincerely agree with him he was going to have to kick your ass.  Really intense guy.

[AdamA]

So is it any surprise that adding a lot more stress is not working out too well?  It's not too surprising, MT, that two doctors of your acquaintenance have exited stage right in the past two years.  Sadly that trend will continue.  And yes, maybe it is the nicer/sensitive people who are less likely to hold out.

I think medicine as a field is like almost anything else.  5-10% of doctors are really good (smart and personable) and 5-10% are really bad (neither smart nor personable).  80-90% just exist somewhere in-between.  I think it's always been that way and probably always been that way regardless of the political or economic climate. 

[MediumTex]

So is it any surprise that adding a lot more stress is not working out too well?  It's not too surprising, MT, that two doctors of your acquaintenance have exited stage right in the past two years.  Sadly that trend will continue.  And yes, maybe it is the nicer/sensitive people who are less likely to hold out.

I think medicine as a field is like almost anything else.  5-10% of doctors are really good (smart and personable) and 5-10% are really bad (neither smart nor personable).  80-90% just exist somewhere in-between.  I think it's always been that way and probably always been that way regardless of the political or economic climate.

I think that when it comes to doctors, though, it's like a caricature of other fields.

The smartest and best 10% of doctors are some of the smartest and most capable people in the world.

The worst 10% of doctors are probably some of the nastiest people you would ever want to cross paths with (even though some of them may be very good doctors).

Somewhere in there are the incompetent doctors, and their incomptetence manifests in a body count until they are stopped.

It's just all very exaggerated, and that's part of why it is interesting to me.

Please don't misunderstand me, though.  I don't dislike doctors or assume anything negative about someone when I find out they are a doctor.  It's just an interesting bunch of people.  It's like the human equivalent of a bunch of Indy 500 cars: high performance, highly tuned, always operating at the edge of their specs, when they win it's amazing, and when they crash it's spectacular and often horrible.

[MediumTex]

What WiseOne doesn't understand is that griping is cathartic.

At "work" I'm academically sharp, emotionally tough, socially competent and I know what I don't know, which as MTex points out is huge and important.

WiseOne, like most medical types, doesn't consider that maybe bitching about medicine is just blowing off steam. It's not bad, it's emotionally healthy - and if I do it around you, it might mean I am comfortable.

Too many med students are spergy humorless nerds. You're hanging out after a long day having a good cathartic bitchfest, they're still cranked up to 11. You tell a joke or complain, they get mad like you said it to the attending's face in front of the patient. Saturday night and they're still nagging about professionalism.

Holy crap, turn it down a notch for your mental health.

WiseOne complains about things, too.  In some cases, I suspect she complains about things here that she doesn't complain about at work.

WiseOne might be like an older female non-blood drinking version of you.

[MediumTex]

WiseOne complains about things, too.  In some cases, I suspect she complains about things here that she doesn't complain about at work.

WiseOne might be like an older female non-blood drinking version of you.

If she ever does that on my watch I'm going to whine at her nonstop with simplistic Communist platitudes about the virtue of selflessness and humanistic altruism like she's back in bioethics. See how much she likes it when she's trying to let her hair down for a sec.

If you put a little blood in a squirt bottle, you could spray it at her every time you hit an exclamation point in your tirade.  You could also use it to wet your whistle if your remarks ran long.

It would be like a dual purpose prop.

[MediumTex]

Dunno about lawyer training.

Law School is probably what Chess School would be like if it were taught by a faculty made up of English professors and army generals.

Although you are nominally taught about how legal principles are developed through case law and how to apply the nuances of those principles to new and unusual situations, what you are really hoping to pick up is a taste for your opponent's blood and a satisfying feeling from that experience (lots of blood drinking in this thread  ).  The whole environment is saturated with a feeling of suppressed aggression and desperation covered by a veneer of self-confidence and swagger.  I went to a high profile law school that attracts an especially high-strung and capable group of students, so I get the sense that I saw an exaggerated version of what a lot of other law school students might experience.  I met some truly brilliant people.

I think that a lot of people go to law school because they think they want to be lawyers, but what they really want is simply the feeling of winning any kind of intellectual battle (or to be more precise, they want the feeling of not losing).

Law School attracts damaged people (primarily insecure achievement junkies) and often damages them some more in the process of turning them into lawyers.  It's not unlike military training in that regard.  Developing the eye of a reptile is hard for many humans, and some struggle getting the hang of it.  For the most part, law school hardens the mind when it comes to a certain kind of reasoning and it prepares one well for a legalistic world.

Here is one of my favorite lawyer jokes:

Q: What do lawyers use for birth control?

A: Their personalities. 

[Libertarian666]

I think that as a group U.S. physicians are a group of remarkable people.  I just feel like a big ego can be a double-edged sword--it can get you through difficult experiences, but it can also blind you to what's going on around you when it doesn't match what you think you know about it.  I have dealt with physicians in a surprising number of settings, and the one thing that I can always count on is an attitude of: "I know.  I got it.", even when it was clear that they hadn't gotten it yet.  When you are trying to provide professional services to these people it can be maddening--e.g., trying to set up a retirement plan for a medical practice. 

I once had the owner of a medium-sized medical practice pay his legal bill by marking through the amount he had been billed and reducing it so that it matched the reduction from his normal fees that Medicare reimbursed.  It was something like a 30-40% reduction.  It seemed like a silly and bizarre thing to do (is that what he does at the grocery store?), but an older attorney said he had seen that sort of thing before from doctors when it came time to pay their bills.  That's just pure arrogance there.  No other word for it.

This is also why they are such terrible investors on the whole. They think that just because they have high IQs, they must know more than anyone else about everything and are blind to their own lack of knowledge about investing.

[Libertarian666]

Law School is probably what Chess School would be like if it were taught by a faculty made up of English professors and army generals.

Although you are nominally taught about how legal principles are developed through case law and how to apply the nuances of those principles to new and unusual situations, what you are really hoping to pick up is a taste for your opponent's blood and a satisfying feeling from that experience (lots of blood drinking in this thread  ).  The whole environment is saturated with a feeling of suppressed aggression and desperation covered by a veneer of self-confidence and swagger.  I went to a high profile law school that attracts an especially high-strung and capable group of students, so I get the sense that I saw an exaggerated version of what a lot of other law school students might experience.  I met some truly brilliant people.

I think that a lot of people go to law school because they think they want to be lawyers, but what they really want is simply the feeling of winning any kind of intellectual battle (or to be more precise, they want the feeling of not losing).

Law School attracts damaged people (primarily insecure achievement junkies) and often damages them some more in the process of turning them into lawyers.  It's not unlike military training in that regard.  Developing the eye of a reptile is hard for many humans, and some struggle getting the hang of it.  For the most part, law school hardens the mind when it comes to a certain kind of reasoning and it prepares one well for a legalistic world.

My brother is a lawyer (although not practicing at the moment) and this applies pretty well to him. He's a good enough guy in most situations but any attempt to discuss a legal system that doesn't rely on government force sends him into a rage; he is incapable of discussing it rationally. We almost stopped talking entirely as a result of this, because I didn't feel like being screamed at on the phone or lectured via email. The solution was to bar such topics from our conversation, and now we're back on good terms.

[BearBones]

Finally skimmed through this, since I have posted here twice. A few observations:

1. Agree you come off as shockingly cynical, IDB. And agree with all of WiseOne's comments. Dead on. Not saying that there is anything wrong with you or what you are saying. Just that it may be a sign you may be going in an unnatural direction. Or need a break.

2. Yes, medical training and medical practice is flawed. Yes, it is hard. Yes, there are some "arrogant assholes" you will encounter as colleagues, mentors, and even patients. But if you really think that it is somehow excessive or intolerable and you deserve otherwise, get out, even if temporarily (I took 2 years off before med school and 1 after). Or try to change it?

3. On complaining and catharsis. Yes, this has a role for some. But when you think and talk negatively, your brain increasingly becomes wired to see negativity and think negative thoughts. And, now others do too! As shown in this thread... Conversely, if you focus on the absolute wonder of what you are learning and the absolute privilege it is to care for vulnerable fellow beings who place their trust in you (not including you, MT  )), you will reinforce these neurologic pathways instead.

4. You said in the beginning that you wanted to do hobbies and hang out with friends and family. Then get off this forum? You can learn a lot here. But you can also waste a lot of time arguing. Or preaching to the choir. It is very seductive. Many have spent over 2000 hours of their life here, some almost 9000. Don't do it! 

[AdamA]

I have dealt with physicians in a surprising number of settings, and the one thing that I can always count on is an attitude of: "I know.  I got it.", even when it was clear that they hadn't gotten it yet.  When you are trying to provide professional services to these people it can be maddening--e.g., trying to set up a retirement plan for a medical practice. 

I think the most impressive modern day physicians are the ones who are trying to work toward true health care reform.

Physicians are not generally thought of as good leaders, but the ones who are good at it, and who are able to get large groups of doctors to work toward a common goal, are some of the smartest,  most impressive people I have come across. 

To me, this is just as important, if not more so, than being super astute clinically or becoming the next Jonas Salk. 

[MediumTex]

Finally skimmed through this, since I have posted here twice. A few observations:

1. Agree you come off as shockingly cynical, IDB. And agree with all of WiseOne's comments. Dead on. Not saying that there is anything wrong with you or what you are saying. Just that it may be a sign you may be going in an unnatural direction. Or need a break.

2. Yes, medical training and medical practice is flawed. Yes, it is hard. Yes, there are some "arrogant assholes" you will encounter as colleagues, mentors, and even patients. But if you really think that it is somehow excessive or intolerable and you deserve otherwise, get out, even if temporarily (I took 2 years off before med school and 1 after). Or try to change it?

3. On complaining and catharsis. Yes, this has a role for some. But when you think and talk negatively, your brain increasingly becomes wired to see negativity and think negative thoughts. And, now others do too! As shown in this thread... Conversely, if you focus on the absolute wonder of what you are learning and the absolute privilege it is to care for vulnerable fellow beings who place their trust in you (not including you, MT  )), you will reinforce these neurologic pathways instead.

4. You said in the beginning that you wanted to do hobbies and hang out with friends and family. Then get off this forum? You can learn a lot here. But you can also waste a lot of time arguing. Or preaching to the choir. It is very seductive. Many have spent over 2000 hours of their life here, some almost 9000. Don't do it! 

Thanks for stopping by BearBones.  I always picture Dr. McCoy with a bear's head when I see your handle (and that's a good thing).

As far as dwelling on the stupid things in life, I agree that it can be a pointless and destructive habit to get into, but it can also be the pathway to a lot of humor.  In my experience, some of the finest humor arises from observations about all of the stupid things in this world.  In fact, I think that finding the humor can actually drain much of the bad feeling you might otherwise have about something.

If this were a forum that was just a bunch of pointless and emotional arguing, it wouldn't be interesting to me.  Personally, I think that many of the discussions result in measurable improvements in my own understanding of an issue, along with my beliefs about it.  IMHO, that really ought to be the guiding principle with every post--i.e., move the discussion forward in a meaningful way.  When that is happening, I think it's time well spent. 

Some posts that seem ridiculous may be more like a moderating tool to release emotional pressure that is accumulating around a topic, which ironically can actually lubricate a discussion more than if you kept it all-serious all-the-time.  IMHO, the key is to create a safe environment where people feel free to avoid positional approaches to controversial topics.  It's hard to explore new areas when you are frantically defending your own turf.

[MediumTex]

I have dealt with physicians in a surprising number of settings, and the one thing that I can always count on is an attitude of: "I know.  I got it.", even when it was clear that they hadn't gotten it yet.  When you are trying to provide professional services to these people it can be maddening--e.g., trying to set up a retirement plan for a medical practice. 

I think the most impressive modern day physicians are the ones who are trying to work toward true health care reform.

Physicians are not generally thought of as good leaders, but the ones who are good at it, and who are able to get large groups of doctors to work toward a common goal, are some of the smartest,  most impressive people I have come across. 

To me, this is just as important, if not more so, than being super astute clinically or becoming the next Jonas Salk.

I don't think this is probably what you had in mind, but a guy like Dr. Oz is someone I can't help but be impressed by.  That guy is amazing, even though he can be a total huckster at times.  His leadership skills and charisma are undeniable.  If Donald Trump were a scientist, he would probably be like Dr. Oz.

[BearBones]

As far as dwelling on the stupid things in life, I agree that it can be a pointless and destructive habit to get into, but it can also be the pathway to a lot of humor.

Oh I love the humor here. Yours especially.

And I did not mean for my 4th point to sound derogatory (about spending too much time on this forum). I was mainly talking about my own experience, namely that I find that I am not my happiest when I am spending a lot of time online. Especially when the discussions turn negative. I even took  a few year off, as I am sure all of you were acutely aware  . Spent my free time dating and learning to kiteboard instead. So if you find me posting to much bs here, give me back some of my own medicine.

[BearBones]

Positive and negative are our judgments, not properties of reality. I'm just describing what I see as accurately as possible. Failure to delude myself by observing through rose colored glasses and failure to sugar coat my observations are frequently mislabeled as cynicism.

Judgements are subjective, yours and yours alone, as you started to say...

In most actions of life, we generally move in the direction that we look.

[MediumTex]

1. Agree you come off as shockingly cynical, IDB.

(...)
But when you think and talk negatively, your brain increasingly becomes wired to see negativity and think negative thoughts.

Positive and negative are our judgments, not properties of reality. I'm just describing what I see as accurately as possible. Failure to delude myself by observing through rose colored glasses and failure to sugar coat my observations are frequently mislabeled as cynicism.

I have also occasionally been misunderstood when what I thought of as a refreshing blast of truth was interpreted as bitter and dark cynicism.

In my organization, one year a senior financial guy announced a bonus program that was 100% objective.  If you did X, you got bonus amount Y.  It was just a formula and everyone loved it and worked harder than ever because there was a clear sight line between effort and compensation. 

At the end of the year, the parent company chose not to fund the bonus pool at the level necessary to pay the bonuses according to the formula and no one got what they were expecting.  A couple of months later, I was on a conference call and it was announced that the guy who created the objective bonus program had been promoted.  I casually said: "I knew that he was going to either be fired or promoted.  After that bonus debacle there's no way he could stay in his old position."  That just felt like a casual observation about reality, but it was interpreted as being far more cynical than I ever intended. 

It just seemed like common sense to me, and it was certainly not out of step with what everyone was thinking.  Ironically, while most people assumed he was going to be fired, or maybe even arrested for theft of services, I knew there was a pretty good chance he was going to be promoted, and I actually thought that made me more of an optimist than many of my peers who found his promotion to be a shocking affront to even their jaded sense of corporate right and wrong.

The true cynic, IMHO, is a person who is naive about the nature of the world and is constantly being disappointed by it.  A realist with a sense of humor, OTOH, is never disappointed by anything.  He knows about human folly.  He forgives people when they act stupid.  He knows there is greatness in the human heart, but that sometimes it has trouble finding its way into action.

[Mountaineer]

1. Agree you come off as shockingly cynical, IDB.

(...)
But when you think and talk negatively, your brain increasingly becomes wired to see negativity and think negative thoughts.

Positive and negative are our judgments, not properties of reality. I'm just describing what I see as accurately as possible. Failure to delude myself by observing through rose colored glasses and failure to sugar coat my observations are frequently mislabeled as cynicism.

I have also occasionally been misunderstood when what I thought of as a refreshing blast of truth was interpreted as bitter and dark cynicism.

In my organization, one year a senior financial guy announced a bonus program that was 100% objective.  If you did X, you got bonus amount Y.  It was just a formula and everyone loved it and worked harder than ever because there was a clear sight line between effort and compensation. 

At the end of the year, the parent company chose not to fund the bonus pool at the level necessary to pay the bonuses according to the formula and no one got what they were expecting.  A couple of months later, I was on a conference call and it was announced that the guy who created the objective bonus program had been promoted.  I casually said: "I knew that he was going to either be fired or promoted.  After that bonus debacle there's no way he could stay in his old position."  That just felt like a casual observation about reality, but it was interpreted as being far more cynical than I ever intended. 

It just seemed like common sense to me, and it was certainly not out of step with what everyone was thinking.  Ironically, while most people assumed he was going to be fired, or maybe even arrested for theft of services, I knew there was a pretty good chance he was going to be promoted, and I actually thought that made me more of an optimist than many of my peers who found his promotion to be a shocking affront to even their jaded sense of corporate right and wrong.

The true cynic, IMHO, is a person who is naive about the nature of the world and is constantly being disappointed by it.  A realist with a sense of humor, OTOH, is never disappointed by anything.  He knows about human folly.  He forgives people when they act stupid.  He knows there is greatness in the human heart, but that sometimes it has trouble finding its way into action.

+1 on the bold.  But, greatness in the human heart?  BS.  That is not reality although I agree it is a wonderful aspiration and a wanna be dream.  I'm cynical on that statement.  I would be more inclined to say the human heart is by nature full of nastiness (in religious terms 'original sin')  .... just look at the world around you, read the paper, turn on the TV.  It is a miracle that when niceness occasionally breaks out, it is not stamped out immediately by the naysayers and we never hear of it. 

... Mountaineer

[MediumTex]

...greatness in the human heart?  BS.  That is not reality although I agree it is a wonderful aspiration and a wanna be dream.  I'm cynical on that statement.  I would be more inclined to say the human heart is by nature full of nastiness (in religious terms 'original sin')  .... just look at the world around you, read the paper, turn on the TV.  It is a miracle that when niceness occasionally breaks out, it is not stamped out immediately by the naysayers and we never hear of it. 

... Mountaineer

People will sometimes surprise you with how noble and selfless they can be.  We were made in God's image, right?

Call me Pollyanna, but I choose to look for the good in people.

[MediumTex]

Call me Pollyanna, but I choose to look for the good in people.

He chooses to see the bad, you choose to see the good, I choose to simply see.

Thus spoke Cacklingplasmaguzzler.

He never wore clothes, his natural skin being his preferred body covering.  He believed that the ions of reality in the air could be better absorbed into his body subcutaneously without the additional barrier of clothing.  It's true that he rarely ate and only drank blood, but he was sure this contributed to the clarity of his thinking.  In all things he was pure, especially in his understanding of truth.  He was that rare human, a naked blood drinking savant, widely misunderstood, but from whom many could learn much if they simply opened their minds.

[Mountaineer]

...greatness in the human heart?  BS.  That is not reality although I agree it is a wonderful aspiration and a wanna be dream.  I'm cynical on that statement.  I would be more inclined to say the human heart is by nature full of nastiness (in religious terms 'original sin')  .... just look at the world around you, read the paper, turn on the TV.  It is a miracle that when niceness occasionally breaks out, it is not stamped out immediately by the naysayers and we never hear of it. 

... Mountaineer

People will sometimes surprise you with how noble and selfless they can be.  We were made in God's image, right?

Call me Pollyanna, but I choose to look for the good in people.

As do I.  I just realize that whatever good is there is because the Holy Spirit is working in them.  I also realize that is far less than we would like to think, or would like to have happen.  I further realize, that even in those that have the Holy Spirit working in them, there is still the anti-God, hate God, spit on God, human nature that is sometimes dormant, sometimes very active.  Thus, when I see good in others, I am thankful.  When I see the bad, I pray that God will give them the gift of knowing Him.  But at the same time, I'm never shocked by the depravity we are capable of bestowing on each other.  Thanks be to God for the good.  There is always hope for more goodness in the world.

... Mountaineer

[MediumTex]

...greatness in the human heart?  BS.  That is not reality although I agree it is a wonderful aspiration and a wanna be dream.  I'm cynical on that statement.  I would be more inclined to say the human heart is by nature full of nastiness (in religious terms 'original sin')  .... just look at the world around you, read the paper, turn on the TV.  It is a miracle that when niceness occasionally breaks out, it is not stamped out immediately by the naysayers and we never hear of it. 

... Mountaineer

People will sometimes surprise you with how noble and selfless they can be.  We were made in God's image, right?

Call me Pollyanna, but I choose to look for the good in people.

As do I.  I just realize that whatever good is there is because the Holy Spirit is working in them.  I also realize that is far less than we would like to think, or would like to have happen.  I further realize, that even in those that have the Holy Spirit working in them, there is still the anti-God, hate God, spit on God, human nature that is sometimes dormant, sometimes very active.  Thus, when I see good in others, I am thankful.  When I see the bad, I pray that God will give them the gift of knowing Him.  But at the same time, I'm never shocked by the depravity we are capable of bestowing on each other.  Thanks be to God for the good.  There is always hope for more goodness in the world.

... Mountaineer

I was just messing with you.  I actually see the bad in people more than the good, but it doesn't bother me too much.