Armageddon In Paris

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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:39 am

Long-term, I think it would be in the west's interests to help the middle-eastern states stabilize and become nicer places to live so the substantial number of people living there don't turn to terrorism and flee their oppressive governments, civil wars, or political violence. Easier said than done, obviously.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by technovelist » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:31 am

Pointedstick wrote: Long-term, I think it would be in the west's interests to help the middle-eastern states stabilize and become nicer places to live so the substantial number of people living there don't turn to terrorism and flee their oppressive governments, civil wars, or political violence. Easier said than done, obviously.
Sure, but an obvious first step is for the US military to get out of there and stay out.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Desert » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:34 am

Pointedstick wrote: Long-term, I think it would be in the west's interests to help the middle-eastern states stabilize and become nicer places to live so the substantial number of people living there don't turn to terrorism and flee their oppressive governments, civil wars, or political violence. Easier said than done, obviously.
My view is that there is very little (possibly nothing) that Western governments can do to improve conditions in ME countries.  I do think there is a lot we can do to make things worse. 
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Jake » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:03 am

Days like today remind me of the article that Harry Browne wrote on September 12th, 2001.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:18 am

If Harry were here today and making the same statements, I would respectfully disagree with some of them. I don't think he's unpatriotic by any means. And, certainly, the argument could be made today that Paris was a target because it is participating in bombing runs. But, is ISIS really going to leave the West alone if we stop? What about if we'd never made a single bombing run? No.

They are an apocalyptic organization by their own definition. They may be blaming France right now for its bombs, but they have also made it clear that they want to draw Western troops in for a battle on the ground. Not to get us to leave the middle east alone.  It is not yet Armagedddon in Paris, but Armageddon is literally something they believe in, and literally something that they want.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by technovelist » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:30 am

dualstow wrote: If Harry were here today and making the same statements, I would respectfully disagree with some of them. I don't think he's unpatriotic by any means. And, certainly, the argument could be made today that Paris was a target because it is participating in bombing runs. But, is ISIS really going to leave the West alone if we stop? What about if we'd never made a single bombing run? No.

They are an apocalyptic organization by their own definition. They may be blaming France right now for its bombs, but they have also made it clear that they want to draw Western troops in for a battle on the ground. Not to get us to leave the middle east alone.  It is not yet Armagedddon in Paris, but Armageddon is literally something they believe in, and literally something that they want.
The reason that ISIS is a threat at all is due to the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, which was warned against by many people.

So Harry's article is still right on point. Unfortunately, it seems that most people will never learn.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:33 am

technovelist wrote: The reason that ISIS is a threat at all is due to the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, which was warned against by many people.

So Harry's article is still right on point. Unfortunately, it seems that most people will never learn.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:35 am

technovelist wrote: The reason that ISIS is a threat at all is due to the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, which was warned against by many people.
That is true. It's also in the past, which can't be changed. So now that we have, in large part due to our own blunders, unleashed this monster on the world, I think we can't just ignore it. If we made the mess, we share in the responsibility to clean it up.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by technovelist » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:47 am

Pointedstick wrote:
technovelist wrote: The reason that ISIS is a threat at all is due to the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, which was warned against by many people.
That is true. It's also in the past, which can't be changed. So now that we have, in large part due to our own blunders, unleashed this monster on the world, I think we can't just ignore it. If we made the mess, we share in the responsibility to clean it up.
The burden is on those who want to continue intervening, because those who were against the prior interventions have proven to be right about the effects of those interventions.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:50 am

technovelist wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
technovelist wrote: The reason that ISIS is a threat at all is due to the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, which was warned against by many people.
That is true. It's also in the past, which can't be changed. So now that we have, in large part due to our own blunders, unleashed this monster on the world, I think we can't just ignore it. If we made the mess, we share in the responsibility to clean it up.
The burden is on those who want to continue intervening, because those who were against the prior interventions have proven to be right about the effects of those interventions.
Can you clarify what this means? I'm not sure what you're saying.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:11 pm

Non-American Muslims are still getting killed far faster at the hands of these groups than Americans are.
I'm just wondering if they have also figured out a way to blame themselves.  ???
Oh, I'm kidding. I know they blame the Jews.

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Last edited by dualstow on Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by MediumTex » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:04 pm

I think that the U.S. and Russia need to sit down and decide who is going to rule Syria and then get busy installing that guy in to power.  If it's Assad, then it will be easy.

Once this new/existing leader is in place, the U.S./France/Russia/whoever else wants to help can proceed with hunting the bad guys down and killing them.

When a group blows a large plane out of the sky and shoots up Paris like this, you've got to take decisive action against them.

The next time the U.S. gets the itch to attack another country that is relatively stable and not threatening to attack us, I hope people remember what a mess the fallout from Iraq and Afghanistan turned into.

We are going to be paying for Iraq and Afghanistan in the form of these sorts of radical groups for decades.

My theory is that every single civilian casualty in Iraq and Afghanistan had the potential to create 5-10 radicals who might come for us at some point in the future.  Think about all of the young males who saw their homes blown up, who saw their families humiliated, and who saw family members and friends killed for nothing by U.S. forces (just collateral damage).  Imagine the conversations they had with themselves as they tried to cope with their grief.  Imagine how many of them said to themselves that they would make revenge and retribution their life's mission.
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