Armageddon In Paris

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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by clacy » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:09 pm

Intervention, non-intervention, it makes no difference.

There is a problem out there and it will have to be dealt with one way or another. There are no good options that wouldn't ultimately involve lots of bloodshed and destruction.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:19 pm

The world is not a fair place, never has been, never will be no matter how much we would like it to be so.  Each individual needs to decide "would I rather live under western commonly held values (mainly Judeo-Christian based) or Islamic commonly held values, or no commonly held values (anarchy), or something else?"  Which is more just and which is more evil, recognizing nothing is perfect?  Once you answer that question, then support those in the elected or appointed positions in the country you choose to live in.  The elected/appointed officials may not always be right, but we should be spending our energies on fighting (however you wish to define that) the external enemy rather than picking at each other for past mistakes that we can do nothing about.  In my opinion, once we decide we are "at war" with another entity that wishes to do us harm, do whatever it takes to defeat them - totally - then forgive those "collateral damages" who are left and rebuild.  I believe if one examines history, the "partial" attempts at winning a war were rarely, if ever, successful.

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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:30 pm

Libertarian666 wrote: 4. We are now hearing the same claims that we need to intervene to "make things better in the Middle East"
From the point of view of France, with its citizens being shot and blown up, would taking action still be called "intervening?" And, would it necessarily be about imporoving things in the Middle East or just at home?
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:28 pm

Yeah. I am totally on board with the thesis that we largely created ISIS. But so what? Now that we've created it, it's here, and it's not just gonna go away. I did not support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but they happened, and now their consequences need to be dealt with.

And just to play devil's advocate, if ISIS wanted to neutralize our advantage of armed civilians, all they would have to do is set off suicide bombs instead of shoot people. CCW-holders can't exactly stop that threat. Little can, really. If we find ourselves on that road, we're gonna be learning a lot of lessons from Israel and we're probably going to be happy that Trump is the president and he built a bunch of big beautiful walls.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:31 pm

Desert wrote: This is a long article from back in March of this year.  It's worth a read.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... =SFTwitter

I agree with those pointing out that the rise of ISIS is a direct consequence of the Bush admin's terrible choice to invade Iraq.  I also agree that ISIS is not a force that will live and let live.  It will now have to be defeated.  Fortunately, ISIS is making some formidable enemies, so I would hope that France or Russia will take on the task of destroying every last one of them. 

And as PS has pointed out, if they come over here, they'll face some return fire.
Maybe this is why the liberal media doesn't seem to be too upset by the caliphate?

"The Islamic State may have medieval-style punishments for moral crimes (lashes for boozing or fornication, stoning for adultery), but its social-welfare program is, at least in some aspects, progressive to a degree that would please an MSNBC pundit. "

(from the Atlantic article linked above)
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:41 pm

"And yet the risks of escalation are enormous. The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: irrespective of whether they have given baya’a to the caliph, they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of ISIS, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job?"

Also from the Atlantic article.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:53 pm

I like PS's idea of return fire, but if it's tourists in Times Square- scratch that, if it's NYC, period, which it very likely will be, who will have a firearm to fight back, save for the police?

And, I don't want to get all "they hate our freedoms", but this thread seems somewhat unbalanced with its singular focus on our misadventures in Iraq. There are unemployed, disenfranchised Algerians, Tunisians, etc.,  lots of them, in France, Belgium, etc. They are ripe for joining ISIS. Yes, they may say they're predicating this on the U.S. invasions, but isn't the current situation of these individuals in Europe equally significant? They have to be unhappy to be recruited and radicalized in the first place, don't they? Most of them?
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by I Shrugged » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:17 pm

Yes, I was mocking the idea that ISIS was going to come here to the US.  It is quite possible I will be proven wrong.  My reason for posting that was that I saw the usual neocon hawks using ISIS as their reason of the moment to gin up support for more US warfare in Iraq.  It surely must gall them that for all of the treasure, death, and destruction, we created a situation far worse than what existed before we invaded.  Said invasion and war being totally the legacy of neocon hawks.  ISIS is the most noteworthy example of the Iraq war, and neocons, gone wrong.

Now, ISIS is making my objection a lot less relevant.  We're going to have to deal them.  But I hope I live long enough to at some point hear a neocon admit they screwed up the world but good.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:19 pm

I Shrugged wrote: Yes, I was mocking the idea that ISIS was going to come here to the US.  It is quite possible I will be proven wrong.  My reason for posting that was that I saw the usual neocon hawks using ISIS as their reason of the moment to gin up support for more US warfare in Iraq.  It surely must gall them that for all of the treasure, death, and destruction, we created a situation far worse than what existed before we invaded.  Said invasion and war being totally the legacy of neocon hawks.  ISIS is the most noteworthy example of the Iraq war, and neocons, gone wrong.

Now, ISIS is making my objection a lot less relevant.  We're going to have to deal them.  But I hope I live long enough to at some point hear a neocon admit they screwed up the world but good.
Why would they do that? The military-industrial complex is doing very well from the permanent war, and the neocons get to accelerate the police state here. Win-win!
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:05 pm

Robert McNamara gave a mea culpa. Anything's possible.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by WiseOne » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:58 am

dualstow wrote: I like PS's idea of return fire, but if it's tourists in Times Square- scratch that, if it's NYC, period, which it very likely will be, who will have a firearm to fight back, save for the police?
I'd be willing to place bets that ISIS is planning a Paris-style attack in NYC right this very minute.  I hope there aren't any forum members living in the high density touristy areas that will likely be targeted, like Times Square, Rockefeller Center, and Ground Zero.

PS's post is probably the first one that actively made me wonder if it wouldn't actually be a terrible idea to try to negotiate NYC's byzantine and expensive gun laws.  I think the gun permit costs over $300 and requires in person police interviews, and I don't know if concealed carry is permitted.

Remember that scene from the first Indiana Jones movie where this terrifying looking, black-swathed expert swordsman comes up, demonstrates his prowess, assumes an attack stance, and then I.J. pulls a little revolver out of his pocket, fires one shot, shakes his head and walks away?
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:59 am

WiseOne wrote: Remember that scene from the first Indiana Jones movie where this terrifying looking, black-swathed expert swordsman comes up, demonstrates his prowess, assumes an attack stance, and then I.J. pulls a little revolver out of his pocket, fires one shot, shakes his head and walks away?
I read somewhere that Harrison Ford did that spontaneously because he was genuinely tired, and that Spielberg was delighted. :-)
EDIT: wiki says he had dysentery, poor guy.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:04 am

A CCW permit in NYC is unfortunately virtually impossible to get if you're not rich or a celebrity, but it is technically possible. I think Donald Trump has one, as well as a bunch more of NYC's rich and powerful. Not sure the effort would be worth it for a regular person, frankly. Mathjak could probably tell you more. You'd probably be better off spending your time and money getting a legal edged weapon or spray, and purchasing training to use them effectively. Improvised weapons could work too; anything is better than letting yourself be slaughtered without putting up a fight.

If you are interested in changing this sad state of affairs I suggest joining the NRA, NYSRPA, and the Second Amendment Foundation. Those would be the relevant, effective, and legit organizations that actually get things done.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:06 am

This appears to be legal in all 50 states, but they can't ship it directly to NY (nor two other states).
http://www.saltsupply.com/#!product-pag ... 62910d9108
EDIT: not legal in Cali.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:57 pm

Libertarian666 wrote: If you lived somewhere in NYS outside the NYC victim disarmament zone, you could get one with only a relatively small amount of harassment, and then I believe you could also carry it in the city, as there was a court case to that effect some time ago. However, they may have closed that "loophole" by now.
When I lived in NY in 2009, a NYS CCW did not let you carry in NYC.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:11 pm

I'm from NY State originally. An old friend who moved out west but who still has parents in NY said that getting a carry permit was quite a struggle. Not sure about the timing with respect to change of residence.

On top of that, even carrying the permit on his person didn't save him from harrassment when he was stopped once. Oh well.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by moda0306 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:51 pm

"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:08 am

moda0306 wrote: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 77423.html

You guys think these are legit?
Happened in Canada, too.
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/61195 ... n-florida/
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:24 am

While terrible, it's just the wages of misplaced multiculturalism. Europeans have a loooooong history of being, how shall I put it, intemperate when it comes to non-Christians living among them. The former European Jewish population is generally much happier in Israel or the USA; their current Muslim population would likewise likely be happier and better off elsewhere. Now it's a huge problem for everyone because European politicians in the past let a huge number of culturally incompatible Arab Muslims in. They're the ones who sowed the seeds of this conflict--purposelessly, and for no benefit at all. Domestic Muslim terrorism and anti-Muslim recriminations were simply the only possible outcomes, given Europe's history. And for what? How has Europe benefited from creating a seething, resentful, easily-radicalizable, culturally incompatible underclass of ethnic non-Europeans? It boggles the mind.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by moda0306 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:44 am

It certainly is a predictable result. However it very quickly upsets the narrative of why these groups are, as you say, incompatible. And it's not necessarily their proclivity for extreme violence, as both groups have extremists willing to terrorize folks because of their political and cultural frustrations.

So really the main "incompatibility" isn't one of "Western Civilization" (whatever that means... Always seems to accompany war-hawkery and a police state) vs barbarian/savage hoards, but one that is more nuanced.

For instance, when I tell people that two of my best Econ professors, both professional and extremely friendly and open and fun to banter with, were Iranian, they are dumbfounded. They simply assume Iranians are evil at worst or at best, incompatible "others."

Meanwhile we support one of the most brutal regimes in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, and this gets almost no level of concern or even curiosity as to what kind of "compatibility with Western Civilization" we might actually be asking from folks. Meanwhile, the only candidate (other than Paul) anywhere in the same ballpark of bringing up this massive inconsistency is Trump, except he just thinks Saudis are screwing over Americans... No concern for the fact that we are allied with one or the most despotic regimes in the world. (In fact, I predict if elected trump will strengthen relationships with brutal dictators as long as they help project American power. Just a guess.)


This whole "incompatibility" topic is an interesting one. I have interacted with Muslims in school, the workplace and in public, and I'd be surprised if there's a lot more culturally incompatible between myself and them as there was between the US citizens and Irish immigrants in the 1860's. People tend to make light of this difference. I encourage you guys to listen to Dan Carlin's "immigration breakdown" podcast on this topic.  http://www.dancarlin.com/common-sense-h ... ding-page/

You may not agree with everything he says, but the historical perspective he offers on how outside groups are perceived, including in the US, is at least an interesting dive into the perspectives at the time.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by dualstow » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:05 am

I think he was saying that a huge number of incompatibles came in, not that everyone is incompatible by race or country of origin, let alone unprofessional or unfriendly.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:13 am

It has nothing to do with "western civilization" vs "middle eastern civilization" (what passes for it, at least). It's the simple, human, enduring fact that people generally don't like people who are unlike them--the greater the difference, the greater the distaste. This is why you got along great with your Iranian Econ professors. They are, for the most part, cut from the same cloth as you. Intelligent, intellectual, thoughtful, interested in money, probably a bit nerdy. I have an African colleague who's from Benin. He's an engineer. I'm an engineer. We are two peas in a pod and get along great. How much cultural similarity does this guy have with someone who grew up in a little village in Benin? Practically nothing. He prefers the company of his colleagues who hail from all over the globe but are all nerdy male engineers, and so do I!

It doesn't have anything to do with race or even nationality. It's simply difference. People like those who are similar to them in mindset and culture. White liberals who worship at the alter of multiculturalism implicitly understand this when they like the company of professional, college-educated blacks but would never in a million years live in the poor section of town where all the ghetto whites and blacks are. Skin color is irrelevant; personal culture is all that matters.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:23 am

Pointedstick wrote: It has nothing to do with "western civilization" vs "middle eastern civilization" (what passes for it, at least). It's the simple, human, enduring fact that people generally don't like people who are unlike them--the greater the difference, the greater the distaste. This is why you got along great with your Iranian Econ professors. They are, for the most part, cut from the same cloth as you. Intelligent, intellectual, thoughtful, interested in money, probably a bit nerdy. I have an African colleague who's from Benin. He's an engineer. I'm an engineer. We are two peas in a pod and get along great. How much cultural similarity does this guy have with someone who grew up in a little village in Benin? Practically nothing. He prefers the company of his colleagues who hail from all over the globe but are all nerdy male engineers, and so do I!

It doesn't have anything to do with race or even nationality. It's simply difference. People like those who are similar to them in mindset and culture. White liberals who worship at the alter of multiculturalism implicitly understand this when they like the company of professional, college-educated blacks but would never in a million years live in the poor section of town where all the ghetto whites and blacks are. Skin color is irrelevant; personal culture is all that matters.
A bit off topic, but your comments seem spot on to me.  Made me think of the church I attend - a blend of about 150 people at a typical Sunday service,  probably 80% white with the rest being black, asian, and latino - all united in receiving the gifts of Christ and all enjoying fellowship with one another.  Skin color is pretty much irrelevant.

... M
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by Jake » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:15 am

Pointedstick wrote: It has nothing to do with "western civilization" vs "middle eastern civilization" (what passes for it, at least). It's the simple, human, enduring fact that people generally don't like people who are unlike them--the greater the difference, the greater the distaste. This is why you got along great with your Iranian Econ professors. They are, for the most part, cut from the same cloth as you. Intelligent, intellectual, thoughtful, interested in money, probably a bit nerdy. I have an African colleague who's from Benin. He's an engineer. I'm an engineer. We are two peas in a pod and get along great. How much cultural similarity does this guy have with someone who grew up in a little village in Benin? Practically nothing. He prefers the company of his colleagues who hail from all over the globe but are all nerdy male engineers, and so do I!

It doesn't have anything to do with race or even nationality. It's simply difference. People like those who are similar to them in mindset and culture. White liberals who worship at the alter of multiculturalism implicitly understand this when they like the company of professional, college-educated blacks but would never in a million years live in the poor section of town where all the ghetto whites and blacks are. Skin color is irrelevant; personal culture is all that matters.
I recommend this fascinating talk by Steve Davis about the concept of "western civilisation"
https://youtu.be/xNOyramDh0I
He argues that modern civilisation burst from Western Europe in the late C18th, but is increasingly less and less about the "west". Rather than being at the end of a long story of western culture, we are at the beginning of something radically new, unplanned and totally alien to the historical cultures of both the "west" and everywhere else before circa 1800.
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Re: Armageddon In Paris

Post by moda0306 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:21 am

Pointedstick wrote: It has nothing to do with "western civilization" vs "middle eastern civilization" (what passes for it, at least). It's the simple, human, enduring fact that people generally don't like people who are unlike them--the greater the difference, the greater the distaste. This is why you got along great with your Iranian Econ professors. They are, for the most part, cut from the same cloth as you. Intelligent, intellectual, thoughtful, interested in money, probably a bit nerdy. I have an African colleague who's from Benin. He's an engineer. I'm an engineer. We are two peas in a pod and get along great. How much cultural similarity does this guy have with someone who grew up in a little village in Benin? Practically nothing. He prefers the company of his colleagues who hail from all over the globe but are all nerdy male engineers, and so do I!

It doesn't have anything to do with race or even nationality. It's simply difference. People like those who are similar to them in mindset and culture. White liberals who worship at the alter of multiculturalism implicitly understand this when they like the company of professional, college-educated blacks but would never in a million years live in the poor section of town where all the ghetto whites and blacks are. Skin color is irrelevant; personal culture is all that matters.
I agree with you in almost 100% entirety.  But it makes it far more toxic when we don't point out that the whole "battle of civilizations" narrative is an incredibly flawed and is more of a threat to the best aspects of open societies than some brown, grumpy, backwards people moving in.

We can still agree that "different people don't get along so let's have a limited immigration policy" without engaging in hyperbole which when combined with Americans (or anyone's) tendency to lash out against other tribes is going to leave our civil liberties and skepticism of a police/Nat'l-security state in the dust bin of history.

I know you're not doing much of that, so we're sorta talking past each other, but I think this is an important aspect of this debate to highlight.
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