Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

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Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:15 am

Thanks to Gumby for figuring this out!

Food fortification has been ended in almost all developing countries, except the USA.  Such countries don't have the high rates of gluten intolerance, celiac disease, CVD and diabesity that we do.  The smoking gun points to excess dietary iron (and also niacin but that's a different topic).

To get up to speed, read these two revealing books:

Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron: What Every Medical Professional Should Know about the Impact of Iron on the Disease Process
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1581823363/

The Iron Factor of Aging: Why Do Americans Age Faster?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1587360519/

My ferritin level when I had it tested a few months ago was 101.  This is about twice the level of what a healthy, active teenager would have.  I am now actively working on reducing it to such levels.  I've never supplemented with iron, but I'm now going back to refined white sea salt (without trace minerals, including iron), definitely not ever using cast iron cookware ever again (not that I did use it much), washing all fortified rice until it is used up then buying foreign/export-only rice that isn't fortified and avoiding all fortified processed foods (which I already effectively do).
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:19 am

Very interesting.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by l82start » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:27 am

Although it could be argued that some of the notions exposed are yet unsupported by evidence based on large-scale randomized trials, a notable amount of data, from basic research and small scale clinical trials already exist, rendering the central ideas of this work likely enough to be plausible and therefore worth publishing.


i don't think i will throw out my cast iron because of it..  (being low carb already eliminates fortified food).. these topic on nutrition and micro nutrients that keep popping up are making me curious though... i think i may try to talk my doc into a blood test next time i go.  what is the best / most informative one to ask for?
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

l82start wrote:
Although it could be argued that some of the notions exposed are yet unsupported by evidence based on large-scale randomized trials, a notable amount of data, from basic research and small scale clinical trials already exist, rendering the central ideas of this work likely enough to be plausible and therefore worth publishing.


i don't think i will throw out my cast iron because of it..  (being low carb already eliminates fortified food).. these topic on nutrition and micro nutrients that keep popping up are making me curious though... i think i may try to talk my doc into a blood test next time i go.  what is the best / most informative one to ask for?
The "gold standard" for nutrient testing is Spectracell (Medicare covers it now, but its about $350 cash) which measures intracellular levels of nutrients as opposed to regular blood tests that just measure extracellular.  There's actually not very many regular blood tests for measuring nutrients anyway, about a handful.

For iron, you want to get your ferritin level measured.  That's the storage form of iron.  Serum iron is not that informative.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:52 am

l82start wrote:
Although it could be argued that some of the notions exposed are yet unsupported by evidence based on large-scale randomized trials, a notable amount of data, from basic research and small scale clinical trials already exist, rendering the central ideas of this work likely enough to be plausible and therefore worth publishing.


i don't think i will throw out my cast iron because of it..  (being low carb already eliminates fortified food).. these topic on nutrition and micro nutrients that keep popping up are making me curious though... i think i may try to talk my doc into a blood test next time i go.  what is the best / most informative one to ask for?
You may wish to ask him what will happen to you if you manage to purge all iron from your body.  ;)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin

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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:19 pm

You may wish to ask him what will happen to you if you manage to purge all iron from your body.  ;)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin

... Fletch
For a few seconds there, I thought you had meant hemoGOBLIN!

P.S.  Still can't get over what an utter asshole Chevy Chase is...
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by l82start » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:52 pm

Mountaineer wrote: [
You may wish to ask him what will happen to you if you manage to purge all iron from your body.  ;)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin

... Fletch
  this??

    Image
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:16 pm

I was hoping for some clarification from our smarter members on this iron/diet topic.

I was recently listening to a Chris Kresser podcast.  In-spite of his dead-pan style, he is one smart dude.  Great podcast! 

But he was talking about our body's ability to get rid of iron, and he was saying that with the exception of people with... hematosis (or something like that)... your body has the ability to easily get rid of excess iron.

Is he wrong on this?

Just wanted to reconcile the opinions here. 
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:28 pm

Maybe easy to get rid of if the body is willing to get rid of it?  The latter is what is problematic.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by Benko » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:34 pm

Hemochromatosis.

Kresser is one smart (and generally openminded) dude.  I'd go back and listen to the exact wording of what he actually said.  In men there is no easy way for the body to get rid of iron (short of donating blood).
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:37 pm

Benko wrote: Hemochromatosis.

Kresser is one smart (and generally openminded) dude.  I'd go back and listen to the exact wording of what he actually said.  In men there is no easy way for the body to get rid of iron (short of donating blood).
I thought people are constantly excreting iron through pee and sweat? Of course, menstruating women have that additional advantage here.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:50 pm

Benko wrote: Hemochromatosis.

Kresser is one smart (and generally openminded) dude.  I'd go back and listen to the exact wording of what he actually said.  In men there is no easy way for the body to get rid of iron (short of donating blood).
Here it is!

http://chriskresser.com/raw-milk-safety ... ituations/
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:26 pm

I stand by what I said.  I think he punted it onto the homochromatosis issue or he's just simply uninformed as to what is optimal or how to get rid of excess iron.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by flagator » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:53 pm

Benko wrote: Hemochromatosis.

Kresser is one smart (and generally openminded) dude.  I'd go back and listen to the exact wording of what he actually said.  In men there is no easy way for the body to get rid of iron (short of donating blood).
You can reduce iron stores by taking rice bran extract, AKA IP-6. However some other nutrients are supposedly lost in the process. I guess one would need to do their own due diligence beforehand.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by dualstow » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:24 pm

These threads always remind me of the financial ones in that tinkering can be a dangerous thing.
Especially after a new discovery.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by dualstow » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:08 pm

I would also like to know that in light of this new evidence, does Greg have to change his avatar?
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by Benko » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:43 pm

A more recent Kresser post on Iron  (last one was from 2012)

http://chriskresser.com/iron-behaving-b ... c-disease/
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:13 pm

Wow. This guy is smart. Good stuff.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:54 am

I liked this comment:

I found out this year that I have genetic hemochromatosis (homozygote, C282Y, chromosome 6) after entering into emergency with congestive heart failure. I’m a 54 year old male who had not been to the doctor in years (decades). My Ferritin level upon entry was 26,205. Today I’m around 5,200. I have 2 phlebotomies per week of 250 ml.

:o
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:09 am

MG, for those of us too busy to do the kind of research you do, can you give us the Cliff Notes version of what you've found out about iron toxicity?

Serum ferritin should be a decent indicator of iron stores.  I'm confused by your post about intracellular vs extracellular tests...ALL blood tests measure levels in serum, and that is extracellular.  Intracellular iron is bound up in hemoglobin in red blood cells.  RBC counts & volume are measured separately ("hemoglobin" and "hematocrit" on a complete blood count panel).

Donating blood is the fastest way to reduce iron stores.  Leeches work too.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:32 am

WiseOne wrote: MG, for those of us too busy to do the kind of research you do, can you give us the Cliff Notes version of what you've found out about iron toxicity?
It's pretty scary...  you can trace the rise of the obesity epidemic in the West as well as more primitive societies to fortification within 10 years after commencement (26 years after, for diabetes) and many lifestyle diseases seem to be related excess iron.  In fact, there's a recent hypothesis that iron actually catalyzes increased homocysteine production so that could explain why homocysteine is a CVD risk marker, but it may actually be an indirect indication of excess iron.  At one time there was a hypothesis that niacin may be the culprit behind fortification instead of iron, but that has an entirely separate higher level pathway directly involved in the aging process (epigenetic, long story).  Iron appears to catalyze disease formation through increased free radical production.  Since the mitochondria have practically no significant defenses against free radicals, it is increased damage to mitochondria that seems plausible for the disease-inducing mechanism.  I do not know why the endogenous antioxidant hormesis theory doesn't apply with iron.  Perhaps iron is just too destructive and stickily hard to get rid of once ingested?

Iron isn't intracellular as far as I know, just calcium, magnesium, manganese, zinc and copper as far as what minerals can be measured intracellularly.

I can't donate blood, so I will be taking IP6 (phytic acid) on an empty stomach first thing after wakeup to reduce my ferritin in half.  It's not fast acting, so I guesstimate it will take about 6-12 months.  Leeches?  Oh boy...  I think I draw the line at that one!
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by moda0306 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:39 am

I'm sure it's somewhere in the discussion, but for summary:

1) What's the most efficient way of measuring your iron levels.

2) What are the best strategies to reduce iron consumption if you have a high-meat diet, or reduce iron retention?
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:44 am

moda0306 wrote: I'm sure it's somewhere in the discussion, but for summary:

1) What's the most efficient way of measuring your iron levels.

2) What are the best strategies to reduce iron consumption if you have a high-meat diet, or reduce iron retention?
1. Ferritin test.  Ask your PCP for it or order it from LEF/LabCcorp yourself.  It's not expensive so I don't see why there would be an objection, but acturians aren't known to be deep thinkers. ;)

2. Donate blood.  Can't do that, take IP6 on an empty stomach.  And beyond that, makes sure you take a multi-mineral with some of the minerals that chelate iron (as well as replace what gets lost donating or binded) and eat your 7-servings of fruits and vegetables a day!

EDIT: Pretty funny screwup up there!  I meant actuarians not [arc]acturians which is some kind of alien extraterrestrial race!

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Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:20 am

Leeches are pretty awesome actually.  Their bite doesn't hurt and the anti-clotting agent is highly effective.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/bloody-s ... apy/11360/

The argument about iron and obesity, oxidation etc is a bit confusing...it sounds like several things happened at the same time the obesity epidemic took off and it's hard to say which one was causative.  The iron fortification is interesting but let's not forget the Senate's Dietary Recommendations for low fat (i.e. high carb/sugar) diets, refined sugar, trans fats, etc.  I'm inclined to think it was the high sugar/low fat diet change, because there is a plausible mechanism there.  I don't quite see one for the iron theory.
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Re: Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:51 am

WiseOne wrote: The argument about iron and obesity, oxidation etc is a bit confusing...it sounds like several things happened at the same time the obesity epidemic took off and it's hard to say which one was causative.  The iron fortification is interesting but let's not forget the Senate's Dietary Recommendations for low fat (i.e. high carb/sugar) diets, refined sugar, trans fats, etc.  I'm inclined to think it was the high sugar/low fat diet change, because there is a plausible mechanism there.  I don't quite see one for the iron theory.
A problem with that is the obesity epidemic started in the 40's and the anti-cholesterol/anti-saturated fat message was only started to be widely followed in what, the late 70's or was it in 1982 with the Time Magazine cover?

I think a telling thing is that non-fortified refined carbohydrates don't seem to cause obesity as fortified refined carbohydrates do.

If the plausible mechanism for obesity is actually homocysteine by excess iron inducing excess intracellular NAM or excess niacin intake which are both part of fortification, I think there's going to be widespread reluctance because epigenetic control of genetic expressions is not an easy sell compared to demonizing simple dumb stuff like cholesterol, sugar, etc..  I can't possibly remember the specifics now, but there seems to be an "obesity pathway" related to excess niacin that reminds me of excess fructose.... NAFLD???

I can't imagine the ruckus it would take to end fortification in this country.  I'm not even going to get involved.

P.S. That video featuring Dr. Lustig about the evils of fructose was full of lies, or should I say very selective evidence to support his hypothesis?  Here's the other side of the story:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/10/42
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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