The Permanent Garden

[MachineGhost]

Which seed companies do you order from.  (Pardon the preposition at the end and that I ask this question while living 200 feet up.  I used to garden 1700 sq ft at my parents' place).

https://www.growjourney.com/

It's a bit rough around the edges as its barely a year old as new startup.  But they've geeked it all out for maximum production with minimum effort.  I've taken the concept further and adopted it to DIY self-irrigating planters (which also saves 70% of water).  Eventually I'd like to add on a self-watering system but I just realized it won't work with my latest planter approach.  Getting the cost down per planter has been problematic so far.  Plan on doing at least 9 planters to get it below $50 all-in-cost each which means at least 16 lbs yield each to be comparable to non-heirloom, commercially-grown organics (at least with tomatoes).  We'll see.  If you don't care about preserving the organic integrity or toxins, it could probably be done somewhat cheaper, but then why bother?  Go buy that "junk food" at the grocery store.

[bedraggled]

MG,

Thanks.

[sixdollars]

Which seed companies do you order from.  (Pardon the preposition at the end and that I ask this question while living 200 feet up.  I used to garden 1700 sq ft at my parents' place).

https://www.growjourney.com/

It's a bit rough around the edges as its barely a year old as new startup.  But they've geeked it all out for maximum production with minimum effort.  I've taken the concept further and adopted it to DIY self-irrigating planters (which also saves 70% of water).  Eventually I'd like to add on a self-watering system but I just realized it won't work with my latest planter approach.  Getting the cost down per planter has been problematic so far.  Plan on doing at least 9 planters to get it below $50 all-in-cost each which means at least 16 lbs yield each to be comparable to non-heirloom, commercially-grown organics (at least with tomatoes).  We'll see.  If you don't care about preserving the organic integrity or toxins, it could probably be done somewhat cheaper, but then why bother?  Go buy that "junk food" at the grocery store.

Update us with pictures once you have your permanent garden up? 

[MachineGhost]

Disastrous first season.  Starting on second and hopefully fixed all the issues.  There was soil mix issues, aeration chamber issues, pest issues and timing issues.  Also had a rat or mouse chew through a feeder water line that was nesting (and eating soap, poor thing) in the house underneath the bathroom drawers that was stupidly open to the underside of the house (boarded that up along with a lot of boric acid everywhere).  I also learned that those "humane" sticky glue traps are very imhumane to use (they will literally gnaw their limbs off to escape and other nasty business).

I put the GrowJourney subscription on hold last year after a few months.  I filled in for missing organic heirloom seeds I need this season from http://www.groworganic.com/ and a few organic, non-heirloom Seeds of Change packets from HomeDepot.  I have nine totes representing three different designs all ready to go, enough for 18 different vegetables.  If it doesn't work out this year, I'm cutting my losses short because there's just no way to amortize the total cost in a reasonable lifetime.

This was also the first time I tried a Ready, Fire, Aim philosophy to a new project.  That's just not happening ever again (its expensive!).

[Maddy]

Which seed companies do you order from.  (Pardon the preposition at the end and that I ask this question while living 200 feet up.  I used to garden 1700 sq ft at my parents' place).

It's the period at the end that's bothering me.  (:

[Mountaineer]

Disastrous first season.  Starting on second and hopefully fixed all the issues.  There was soil mix issues, aeration chamber issues, pest issues and timing issues.  Also had a rat or mouse chew through a feeder water line that was nesting (and eating soap, poor thing) in the house underneath the bathroom drawers that was stupidly open to the underside of the house (boarded that up along with a lot of boric acid everywhere).  I also learned that those "humane" sticky glue traps are very imhumane to use (they will literally gnaw their limbs off to escape and other nasty business).

I put the GrowJourney subscription on hold last year after a few months.  I filled in for missing organic heirloom seeds I need this season from http://www.groworganic.com/ and a few organic, non-heirloom Seeds of Change packets from HomeDepot.  I have nine totes representing three different designs all ready to go, enough for 18 different vegetables.  If it doesn't work out this year, I'm cutting my losses short because there's just no way to amortize the total cost in a reasonable lifetime.

This was also the first time I tried a Ready, Fire, Aim philosophy to a new project.  That's just not happening ever again (its expensive!).

I KNEW there were advantages for growing up in rural WV.  But I must admit, I had my fill of mowing two acres with a push lawn mower and hoeing corn, tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, onions, beans, etc. as a teenager.  But I did learn how to garden and take care of a place.  For everything else, there is MasterCard. 

... M

[bedraggled]

Maddy,

I see it now!  Shoulda been a question mark!!!! No?????

Thanks.  A ten month old error!!!  Priceless?????

And I still live 200 feet up.

[bedraggled]

What is the easy path to hydroponic growing? [?]

Thanks [?]

[Pointedstick]

Growing things is hard. In the past two years I've planted seven fruit trees and killed two, with another two barely hanging in there.

Of course, I live where the yearly rainfall varies between 4 and 11 inches, there's no topsoil, the subsoil is like concrete, it's dry as bone, gets up to 110 in the summer, and freezes in the winter. I consider it a minor miracle when I can get anything desirable to grow at all, and beginning my horticultural education here should probably be viewed as a form of masochism.

[Mountaineer]

Growing things is hard. In the past two years I've planted seven fruit trees and killed two, with another two barely hanging in there.

Of course, I live where the yearly rainfall varies between 4 and 11 inches, there's no topsoil, the subsoil is like concrete, it's dry as bone, gets up to 110 in the summer, and freezes in the winter. I consider it a minor miracle when I can get anything desirable to grow at all, and beginning my horticultural education here should probably be viewed as a form of masochism.

Yucca! 

... M

[MachineGhost]

There are interesting parallels between gardening and investing.  You have no real control over the end results and that's maddening; but you have full control over the risk management.  All you can do is "clear the weeds" as much as possible and pray for the best.

I'll take investing over gardening any day.  But I aim to see this through and get the happy ending I'm promised.

@bedraggled: Stay away from hydroponic gardening.  It results in tasteless food.  That's another reason why I'm doing sub-irrigation planting; its a compromise between traditional and hydroponic so long as you prevent the roots from reaching the water table.  There is also one aspect of permaculture involved to make it work.  Actually, "traditional" is not permaculture, it just results in the ongoing destruction of the soil and its ecosystem, but I digress.

Anyway, if this season works out, I'll write another How To guide so that everyone else can do it without all of the expensive red herrings.

[bedraggled]

MG & PS,

The Israelis figured out drip irrigation.

Organic Gardening Magazine and Ruth Stout advocated heavy mulch.  The assertion was that the soil stays cool and that it did not dry.

Organic Gardening suggested digging holes the size of a 5 gallon bucket, prepping each hole with compost, etc, for each tomato, pepper, whatever.  They suggest this approach gets the gardener beyond the alkalinity problem.

New York State gets 8 million inches of rain every year, so I cannot pretend to be an expert on dry conditions.  Over the decades, I never produced one blueberry, even with Burpee's best stock  The plants were fine.  No berries, though.  Rasberries grew wild.  No luck with apples.  Corn was too heavy a feeder for me.  Most of this on eastern Long Island.

[Pointedstick]

My approach to tree planting that now seems to work well for my climate is as follows:

- Use a jackhammer/demo hammer to loosen the soil where I'm gonna dig (yes really)
- Dig a square hole 3 times the diameter of the rootball and as deep (square holes reduce the tendency of roots to circle when they hit hard soil)
- Use the demo hammer to loosen the soil of the walls
- Use the demo hammer to drill drainage holes in the floor of the hole
- Fill the hole with water
- When the water has drained, plant the tree in bare-root form. Had the best results with these. If planting a container-grown tree, remove all the soil from the rootball and cut off all circling roots at the point before they start to circle. I mean just be brutal to those roots. You can't chop off too much. New roots will grow.
- Backfill hole with the removed soil
- Walk on the soil to compact it
- Top-dress immediate area with about 2" of purchased topsoil or compost
- Drench the area with water
- Cover that with 3-4" of mulch (evergreen mulch if it's an evergreen, otherwise deciduous mulch), taking care to keep the mulch 2-3" away from the trunk
- Extend my drip irrigation system to water about 3' away from the trunk in a circular pattern, and turn it on once every 2-4 weeks for several hours, depending on how much rain we've gotten

[bedraggled]

I was not going to suggest dynamite for the holes but many fox holes were dug during the Battle of The Bulge using hand grenades in the December-January "planting season."  Actually, I did not appreciate that battle until Band of Brothers came out in the 10-disc HBO package.

Back on topic, I was thinking some sort of power auger for the holes.  In the Northeast, people, confronted with clay, have to break through to get to more agreeable soil to let the roots roam free.

Cutting those roots works, doesn't it?

[dualstow]

I also learned that those "humane" sticky glue traps are very imhumane to use (they will literally gnaw their limbs off to escape and other nasty business).

Definitely. We don't have mice since renovation, and I do use those sticky traps in the basement for cave crickets, but definitely a nasty end for a mouse. Way worse than eating soap.

[FarmerD]

My approach to tree planting that now seems to work well for my climate is as follows:

- Use a jackhammer/demo hammer to loosen the soil where I'm gonna dig (yes really)
- Dig a square hole 3 times the diameter of the rootball and as deep (square holes reduce the tendency of roots to circle when they hit hard soil)
- Use the demo hammer to loosen the soil of the walls
- Use the demo hammer to drill drainage holes in the floor of the hole
- Fill the hole with water
- When the water has drained, plant the tree in bare-root form. Had the best results with these. If planting a container-grown tree, remove all the soil from the rootball and cut off all circling roots at the point before they start to circle. I mean just be brutal to those roots. You can't chop off too much. New roots will grow.
- Backfill hole with the removed soil
- Walk on the soil to compact it
- Top-dress immediate area with about 2" of purchased topsoil or compost
- Drench the area with water
- Cover that with 3-4" of mulch (evergreen mulch if it's an evergreen, otherwise deciduous mulch), taking care to keep the mulch 2-3" away from the trunk
- Extend my drip irrigation system to water about 3' away from the trunk in a circular pattern, and turn it on once every 2-4 weeks for several hours, depending on how much rain we've gotten

Where I'm at in Texas we have the shitty Caliche soil.  Sounds like what you have.  I been looking at planting some fruit trees as soon as we move into our new house but I wasn't sure if any fruit tree would grow well in caliche.  What have you planted and how are they doing?  I've looked into pomegranate, pears, apricots, blackberries, as well as a container grown meyer lemon and satsuma. 

 

[Pointedstick]

Yeah, I'm in New Mexico, so caliche and heavy clay soils, same as you. I have a Bosc pear tree that I have not managed to kill despite terrible abuse. The thing's a tank. I've also got Fuji and Gala apple trees that are growing nicely. They're replacements for two of the same types of trees that didn't survive the previous winter (planted bare-root in the fall) but these are doing better. I've definitely been nicer to them than I was to their forerunners, so a bit of TLC is in order.

I just put in a weird mutant tree I found at Home depot that has three varieties of pears grafted onto a different rootstock. Really crazy thing, supposedly it's self-fertile and will produce three kinds of pears, one of which is a pear-apple hybrid. I can't wait. Seems to be doing fine so far. A hazelnut tree I planted last year is not technically dead but hasn't been growing much, so I dunno about it. Might work out, might not. People around town tell me that apricots grow really well too so I'm planning on putting in a few soon.

[Kriegsspiel]

I just watched the Back to Eden film, available here. It's a simple and passive method that probably qualifies for the title.

[WiseOne]

Apologies if this is off topic, but for those of us living in apartments with no private outdoor space:  has anyone tried aquaponics?  I am itching to give this a try, although it's probably a few months down on the project list.

From what I've read, it's possible but tricky to build a DIY system with a lot of trial-and-error involved, but kits are crazy overpriced.  I'm willing to buy a set of plans though.  I'm hoping that the aquarium can double as human and cat entertainment, which would require relatively clear water and at least one uncovered side.

[Pointedstick]

I don't see that aquaponics offers many advantages over a dirt-based system as long as you have enough available light. The cool thing about aquaponics is that you can breed fish in the same space and then eat the fish! The Earthships in northern NM all have integrated systems for this.

[MachineGhost]

Apologies if this is off topic, but for those of us living in apartments with no private outdoor space:  has anyone tried aquaponics?  I am itching to give this a try, although it's probably a few months down on the project list.

From what I've read, it's possible but tricky to build a DIY system with a lot of trial-and-error involved, but kits are crazy overpriced.  I'm willing to buy a set of plans though.  I'm hoping that the aquarium can double as human and cat entertainment, which would require relatively clear water and at least one uncovered side.

I really love the idea of it being entertainment for the cats!   I guess this bears repeating: If you grow vegetables with roots exposed to a water table, the vegetables and/or fruits will have a flat taste.  It will taste even flatter than the tasteless tomatoes sold commercially.  Is it worth the bother?  Not in my book.  Roots are amazingly persistent and will try their damndest to seek out and grow like a snake into a water table.

Also, the idea of growing vegetables in fish tank water sounds disgusting.  Have you ever smelled aquarium water?  Vegetables grown in clean water have a flat taste, but aquarium water?  Gag me with a pitchfork!  I could be wrong about that, but I'm not willing to find out.  Its the minerals (and probably the entire microbiome) in soil that give vegetables/fruits its taste.  OTOH, The Grove Ecosystem is pretty cool for an overpriced concept (it uses clay pebbles not soil): https://grovelabs.io/

There is an lower cost, alternative solution for indoor or winter growing.  You could use a smaller 14 or 18 gallon tote design for a sub-irrigation planter, but rather than have the overflow hole be open for water spillage and oygen intake which is fine for being outside, you can use the hole for supplying the water itself by using a L elbow into a grommet as well as a water level indicator (so you know when to add more water).  So long as you have space to hang a proper grow light over it, it can be done.  Off the top of my head, I'm not sure how oxygen gets into such a tote, though.  It won't be as pretty and there won't be any fish for the cats, but you'll get flavorful tomatoes at least.

[Pointedstick]

Wouldn't the fish poop provide the minerals that clean water lacks? Animal poop does the same on land, so if it's disgusting to eat food grown in water full of fish poop, it would seem to be nearly as disgusting to eat food grown in topsoil full of animal poop.

[l82start]

Wouldn't the fish poop provide the minerals that clean water lacks? Animal poop does the same on land, so if it's disgusting to eat food grown in water full of fish poop, it would seem to be nearly as disgusting to eat food grown in topsoil full of animal poop.

the question is does the poop (fertilizer) go through a long enough transformation process to loose the fish or poop taste? animal fertilizer in soil certainly does but would fish water make the food taste fishy? if no then, no difference than soil - if yes then yuck!

[MachineGhost]

Wouldn't the fish poop provide the minerals that clean water lacks? Animal poop does the same on land, so if it's disgusting to eat food grown in water full of fish poop, it would seem to be nearly as disgusting to eat food grown in topsoil full of animal poop.

It seems plausible, but I'd worry about the available quantity being optimal.  Fish poop doesn't seem very large in volume compared to manure or compost (which is broken down by the microbiota).  And our soils have been deficit since at least 1930, so unless you're going to buy organic or biodynamic fish food (does either exist?), the odds are it won't be very mineral rich either.  I'd still worry more about the fish water taste being in the plants/fruits than anything else.  Shudder.

[Austen Heller]

What is the easy path to hydroponic growing? [?]

There is a type of hydroponics especially suited to the home grower, called Bucket Hydroponics or the Kratky Method.  Start your seedlings in rockwool cubes, then suspend the plants above a solution of liquid fertilizer.  No water pumps, no aeration needed.  The roots grow down into the solution, and eventually use it all up.  As long as you provide more hydroponic solution than the plant can use in its lifetime, there is no ongoing maintenance during the growing period.  Most small plants (like lettuce) only need a gallon of fluid or less.  If you have a patio, larger plants (like tomatoes and cucumbers) can be grown outside in larger containers (like trash buckets).

Check out this website for more details:
www.buckethydroponics.com