Gyroscopic Investing

After resisting being put on statins for quite a few years and being fired by two different doctors, I decided I would go ahead and humor my latest doctor for a while. Just got my first blood test and my bad cholesterol was cut in half which is nice to know, but it's just a number and I didn't come out dancing like the lady in the Crestor commercials.

But I was just noticing today how much improved the arthritis in my neck and spine seems to be. So I did some googling and now I'm thinking I shouldn't have been so stubborn all those years....

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/hea ... nt-disease

Statins have potent anti-inflammatory action.

But statins also have very potent action in inducing muscle destruction and cognitive heart failure by depleting your CoQ10.

And that's on top of the numerous diseases you'll eventually acquire from chronic cholesterol defenciency.  Like say, dementia.  Your brain is 25% cholesterol by weight.

Not to mention that statins don't improve cardiovascular outcomes, unless you already had a heart attack (i.e. fucked up already from terrible diet and lifestyle, so literally anything at that point would minorly help).  That's because statins "work" by throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.  Oops.

Why don't you try a baby aspirin every day or a full aspirin dose once a week if you need some anti-inflammatory action?  There's also many herbal extracts that you can take that are much safer than statins or aspirin as well.

If doctors fire you because you won't be a tool and destroy your life from the side effects all so they can get their kickbacks, then fuck them.  Don't rationalize it because it'll be way too late once you're irreversibly damaged.  Do you think the C-suite executives at Big Pharma will care about your plight?  They're laughing all the way to the bank on their seven-figure salaries.

So get real.

MachineGhost wrote: If doctors fire you because you won't be a tool and destroy your life from the side effects all so they can get their kickbacks, then fuck them.  Don't rationalize it because it'll be way too late once you're irreversibly damaged.  Do you think the C-suite executives at Big Pharma will care about your plight?  They're laughing all the way to the bank on their seven-figure salaries.

So get real.

Tell us how you really feel, MG! Welcome back.

MachineGhost wrote: So get real.

Okay, I will. What are your real credentials for giving this advice?

madbean wrote: Okay, I will. What are your real credentials for giving this advice?

Continuing Education (not sponsored by Big Pharma).

MachineGhost wrote: Statins have potent anti-inflammatory action.

But statins also have very potent action in inducing muscle destruction and cognitive heart failure by depleting your CoQ10.

And that's on top of the numerous diseases you'll eventually acquire from chronic cholesterol defenciency.  Like say, dementia.  Your brain is 25% cholesterol by weight.

Not to mention that statins don't improve cardiovascular outcomes, unless you already had a heart attack (i.e. fucked up already from terrible diet and lifestyle, so literally anything at that point would minorly help).  That's because statins "work" by throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.  Oops.

Why don't you try a baby aspirin every day or a full aspirin dose once a week if you need some anti-inflammatory action?  There's also many herbal extracts that you can take that are much safer than statins or aspirin as well.

If doctors fire you because you won't be a tool and destroy your life from the side effects all so they can get their kickbacks, then fuck them.  Don't rationalize it because it'll be way too late once you're irreversibly damaged.  Do you think the C-suite executives at Big Pharma will care about your plight?  They're laughing all the way to the bank on their seven-figure salaries.

So get real.

I'm not sure what "cognitive heart failure" is, but other than that you're right on the money. Statins are the "killer app" of the pharmaceutical-industrial complex.

I have no doubt that I'll be on statins someday, but of course that's for medical professionals to help decide. For now, I don't need any medication and will be satisfied with oyster mushrooms.

Libertarian666 wrote:

MachineGhost wrote: But statins also have very potent action in inducing muscle destruction and cognitive heart failure by depleting your CoQ10.

I'm not sure what "cognitive heart failure" is,

I think it's the other side of the coin of when your head is ruled by your heart. ;-)

So you've changed your opinion on aspirin,  MG?

MachineGhost wrote: Why don't you try a baby aspirin every day or a full aspirin dose once a week if you need some anti-inflammatory action? 

how about EPA predominant fish oil, or curcumin, or boswellia or..... depending on where the inflammation is.  Or if near the skin the magic chinese linament is great (type Zheng Gui Shui into amazon's search engine for zillions of reviews or buy at local chinese medical practitioner).

[quote=MachineGhost]Your brain is 25% cholesterol by weight[/quote]

And of course cholesterol is a precursor to testosterone.

WildAboutHarry wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:Your brain is 25% cholesterol by weight

And of course cholesterol is a precursor to testosterone.

That number didn't seem right to me.  According to wikipedia, the total amount of cholesterol in a 150-lb man is 35 g.  If it was all located in his grey matter, 25% cholesterol would imply a brain weight of just 140 g.  A typical brain weighs about ten times as much.  I think MG meant to say that 25% of all cholesterol in the human body is found in the brain.  So, about 10 g of cholesterol in the brain, or less that 1% by weight.  Here endeth the lesson.

[quote='Pet Hog']That number didn't seem right to me.  According to wikipedia, the total amount of cholesterol in a 150-lb man is 35 g.  If it was all located in his grey matter, 25% cholesterol would imply a brain weight of just 140 g.  A typical brain weighs about ten times as much.  I think MG meant to say that 25% of all cholesterol in the human body is found in the brain.  So, about 10 g of cholesterol in the brain, or less that 1% by weight.  Here endeth the lesson.[/quote]

Of course some would argue that, depending on how much of that cholesterol gets funneled into testosterone production, a 140g brain might be the right number 

Libertarian666 wrote: I'm not sure what "cognitive heart failure" is, but other than that you're right on the money. Statins are the "killer app" of the pharmaceutical-industrial complex.

Lolz!  I had cognitive brain failure there.  I meant "congestive".  Since statins deplete your heart of CoQ10, its a guaranteed lock.

Reub wrote: So you've changed your opinion on aspirin,  MG?

No.  I was just trying to be helpful for people not into dietary supplements.

MachineGhost wrote:

madbean wrote: Okay, I will. What are your real credentials for giving this advice?

Continuing Education (not sponsored by Big Pharma).

Got so pissed off at the replies to this post that I actually deleted my account but I came back just to give my reply. Don't know how long I'll stay.

I'm very familiar with the case against statins. I might not have read as thoroughly as you or others have on the subject but I actually read most of Uffe Ravnskov's book as well as many other online articles and for many years I was convinced. Like I think I said, I have been fired by two doctors for not following their advice.

Despite diet and exercise including 2 fasting days per week for 2 years and losing 35 lbs to the point where my BMI is almost normal my total cholesterol continued to hover around 325. That's abnormally high in anybody's book and nothing I do seems to change it. I have no history of high cholesterol or heart disease in my family and a doctor recently told me that at age 65 I had the blood pressure of a teenage boy (110/70 by last measurement).

I went to a doctor for unrelated issues in January and got the usual recommendation to take a statin. I figured what the heck, might as well give it a try and see what happens.

I already described part of the results after 3 months - a reduction in total cholesterol from 325 to 205 and an anecdotal observation of arthritis relief in my back. And for the record, I already tried most of the things you suggested including aspirin and circumin. I thought circumin was helping for a while but it seemed to stop. A form of ibuprofen I can get from Canada that contains a muscle relaxer helps best but I don't like taking too much because Nsaids also have long-term side-effects. I've recently been using lidocaine patches which also help. I've also had physical therapy.

But in addition to the observation I already made about the benefit I thought I was receiving from Crestor I can also report two other things:

1.) I suffered from pulsating tinnitus in my ear for over a year and thought it was going to be a fact of life for me for the rest of my life. About two months after starting Crestor it just stopped in the middle of the night and has not come back. Google puslating tinnitus and you will see that one possible cause is hardening of the arteries. Crestor claims that it can actually reverse hardening of the arteries. Anectodal evidence only, to be sure, but there it is.

2.) Another symptom I had of hardening of the arteries was erectile dysfunction. More anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but I feel that condition has also improved.

Make of this what you want. If you want to continue to say that statins are only about enriching "Big Pharma" then go ahead but I'm not so convinced any more.

madbean2 wrote: Got so pissed off at the replies to this post that I actually deleted my account but I came back just to give my reply. Don't know how long I'll stay.

Wow, you need to take a chill pill!  We're all about helping each other in here.

Its great that you're receiving some short term benefits from a statin.  After all, they reduce inflammation and C-Reactive Protein as an unintended consequence.  And whenever you reduce inflammation and oxidation in the body, you're bound to improve things.  But it doesn't mean that the long-term negative side effects from the primary mechanism don't apply.  That was the point of our replies, however poorly in taste that you felt they were.

It reads to me like you have familial hypercholesterolemia.  That's a little different situation than wanting to drug literally everyone with a statin.  Even though it still stands that the only primary benefit statins have in terms of CVD outcomes is they reduce the risk of dying slightly and only after you've had your first heart attack.

I won't even recommend red yeast extract which is where statins were originally synthesized from because the primary mechanism is just simply too deadly in the long-term and it is fundamentally the wrong approach to solving the core issue of LDL oxidation.  Statins take a sledgehammer to what is a nail.

It seems to me you would benefit from looking more into primary anti-inflammatories which hopefully would have less scary side effects than statins.

MachineGhost wrote: I won't even recommend red yeast extract which is where statins were originally synthesized from

Wow, you need to take a chill pill! 

Any recommendations for a chill pill?

I took red yeast rice last year before my biometrics at work to see if I could get my numbers down and reduce my health insurance premium. Didn't work.

But I was just reading about it today and from what I have learned the FDA has banned all red yeast rice from the market if it contains anything more than trace amounts of lovastatin so most of what is sold doesn't have it. I read that you can still get the real thing if you look hard enough but if you want to go to all that effort might as well take lipitor and be sure of what you are getting.

And BTW, the cost of my Crestor is $10/day, paid fully by health insurance. It doesn't go generic until next year. If I was paying for it myself I definitely would NOT be doing it. In addition my doctor is requiring me to get a blood test and make an office visit every 3 months which the FDA no longer recommends for any statin drugs. She will be fired before my next office visit. If I continue to take Crestor it will be with another doctor.

madbean

I was prescribed statins about a year ago, all was fine and they were effective at what they were supposed to do. After about 6 months I started to feel deep muscular fatigue (like when you overdo the exercise then take a hot bath) which massively impacted my ability to exercise.
I didn't really connect how I was feeling with the known potential side effects of statins, long story short it took me a couple more months of experimentation to work out the statins were probably responsible.
On my doctors advice I fiddled about with the dosage but I was getting the fatigue effects even on an 8th of the dosage. I stopped taking them entirely about 3 months ago and I'd say have only just about recovered my stamina. Obviously the underlying issue probably remains but I'm trying other means until my next bloodtest in a couple of months. At that time difficult choices may have to be made, hopefully not involving getting fired by my doctor

TLDR: Side effects may take months to develop and might not be as others describe them.

Hope the statins continue to work for you.

Stick around, madbean. It's all just words on a screen.

Any recommendations for a chill pill?

I *do* not recommend valerian root. Not only does it not work, but supposedly the smell is attractive to rats. That may turn out to be a myth, like copper tape vs garden slugs, but in any case, it stinks! And it will not help you chill that much. 

Statins have made a huge positive difference for me in terms of NAFLD (non-alcoholic fatty liver disease). I went from having NAFLD to not having NAFLD in a couple of years, by losing a bit of weight, taking Vitamin E, and a statin. Obviously, I can't tease apart which one helped, and how much it helped, but the net effect was good. I have not noticed any other side effects.

ochotona wrote: Statins have made a huge positive difference for me in terms of NAFLD (non-alcoholic fatty liver disease). I went from having NAFLD to not having NAFLD in a couple of years, by losing a bit of weight, taking Vitamin E, and a statin. Obviously, I can't tease apart which one helped, and how much it helped, but the net effect was good. I have not noticed any other side effects.

I've read that this is a pretty common disorder in a lot of Americans.  If I had to bet on any one of those three factors you named, I'd bet on the first one having the largest contribution if you are currently overweight.  Increasing your intake of natural sources of choline (e.g. eggs, organ meats) may help with fatty liver tremendously - choline is an essential nutrient that's required for the transport of fat out of the liver.  Reducing your intake of excess fructose (e.g. sodas) tends to improve this as well.  Just my two cents

sixdollars wrote:

ochotona wrote: Statins have made a huge positive difference for me in terms of NAFLD (non-alcoholic fatty liver disease). I went from having NAFLD to not having NAFLD in a couple of years, by losing a bit of weight, taking Vitamin E, and a statin. Obviously, I can't tease apart which one helped, and how much it helped, but the net effect was good. I have not noticed any other side effects.

I've read that this is a pretty common disorder in a lot of Americans.  If I had to bet on any one of those three factors you named, I'd bet on the first one having the largest contribution if you are currently overweight.  Increasing your intake of natural sources of choline (e.g. eggs, organ meats) may help with fatty liver tremendously - choline is an essential nutrient that's required for the transport of fat out of the liver.  Reducing your intake of excess fructose (e.g. sodas) tends to improve this as well.  Just my two cents

Lecithin is a great source of choline as well as other vital components necessary for cellular membrane vitality. I take it as a supplement every day.

madbean2 wrote: But I was just reading about it today and from what I have learned the FDA has banned all red yeast rice from the market if it contains anything more than trace amounts of lovastatin so most of what is sold doesn't have it. I read that you can still get the real thing if you look hard enough but if you want to go to all that effort might as well take lipitor and be sure of what you are getting.

That's interesting and I didn't know that (or forgot it a very very long time ago).

So if you're going to stay on a statin at least be smart about it and pair it with ubiquinol.  I can't promise doing so will prevent all the negative side effects from the statin, but it seems logical that if you prevent your body from being depleted of CoQ10 by the statin in the first place, then the negative side effects may not ever show up.  Of course, this excludes the negative side effects from insufficient cholesterol, but there's no cure for that other than not to take a statin.  The ideal number is 220 where all cause mortality is the lowest.  I don't know if you can have insufficient cholesterol while near that number on a statin or it is only at those extremely risky <150 numbers.  But remember how statins work... they force the liver to unnaturally purge ALL cholesterol out of the body from everywhere, including the brain.  There's no selectivity and no discrimination.

And BTW, a lot of so-called "high cholesterol" is due to hypothyroidism.  Ignorant doctors aren't aware of the relationship.  Fixing the hypothyroidism will normalize cholesterol because the thyroid endproducts use LDL against infections.  This probably doesn't apply to familial hypercholesterolemia though (>300).

sixdollars wrote: I've read that this is a pretty common disorder in a lot of Americans.  If I had to bet on any one of those three factors you named, I'd bet on the first one having the largest contribution if you are currently overweight.  Increasing your intake of natural sources of choline (e.g. eggs, organ meats) may help with fatty liver tremendously - choline is an essential nutrient that's required for the transport of fat out of the liver.  Reducing your intake of excess fructose (e.g. sodas) tends to improve this as well.  Just my two cents

Avoid niacin too...  it's in all that fortification.

I found a study that evaluated the efficacy of ubiquinone:

[quote=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9816194]
Cyclical treatment with lovstatin markedly inhibited the mevalonate pathway, evidenced by reductions in both cholesterol and ubiquinone concentrations, by up to 43 and 49% of pretreatment values, respectively.
[/quote]

[quote=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9816194]
Treatment with ubiquinone was associated with reversal of lovastatin-induced myopathy, and its prophylactic administration prevented the development of this toxicity in a cohort of 56 patients.
[/quote]

[quote=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9816194]
The occurrence of myopathy, the dose-limiting toxicity, can be prevented by ubiquinone supplementation.
[/quote]

[quote=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9816194]
Oral ubiquinone supplementation for a week resulted in a 3-fold increase in serum concentrations (Table 3) from baseline concentrations of 1 .23 ± 0.78 p.g/ml to 4.58 ± 3.20 ug/ml (mean ± SD, n = 27). Following the administration of lovastatin for 7 days, ubiquinone concentrations decreased on average by 49% (to 1.88 ± 0.97 p.g/rnl, P = 0.001, Wilcoxon’s signed rank test) but still exceeded baseline measurements.
[/quote]

So a 63% success rate in preventing side effects with ubiquinone.  Not inspiring, but ubiquinone is poorly absorbed and they used 240mg a day.  Ubiquinol is at least 8x more bioavailable.