Designated Hitter

[bedraggled]

TennPaGa,

Lumbering outfielders and first basemen are part of baseball tradition.  Ted Williams was only adequate in left field.  This is all part of the tradition.

I think your thoughts are great fun to read.

Thanks.

[bedraggled]

TennPaGa,

I just caught your post on strike outs.  Excellent.

I don't want to assert the "purist" angle" as much as I think the game is boring.

The family went with me to a day game at Yankee Stadium 10 years ago. ($5 tickets; it was a weekday).  The Yankees scored 8 runs in 1 inning but that half inning took 45 minutes.  We were bored to tears.  My wife read a book.

There's something wrong with the game.  I am not being summoned to fix it.  They haven't offered me gobs of cash, either.

Perspective?  Via the internet, I determined my first game attended was April 11, 1961.  For a 6 year old, it was OK.  THe Yankees lost and Mantle/Maris struck out 4 or 5 times.  That home run show did not start until May.  That was kinda fun after that April 11 game- but not on April 11.

Cheers.

[bedraggled]

TennPaGa,

You nailed the strikeout problem.  Baseball theory/lore says put the ball in play.  Typical year: Joe DiMaggio might strikeout 65 times, while Yogi Berra only 10 times.  Mickey Mantle was a bit embarrassed by averaging 100 whiffs per year.  You would agree there is more to baseball than HR or strikeout.  I guess I'll see how many times Ted Williams struck out. 

Your last point on defensive shifts is debatable.  Over time these things are deciphered.  In the Ruth and Cobb days the standard defensive array went for decades.  Someone had to do something about the obvious.  Lew Boudreau [spelling problem, here], Cleveland manager, shifted on Ted Williams in the late 1940s.  Williams had too much pride and hit into the shift.  In retirement, he said he was stupid and should have hit to left and bunted.  Today's players are silly.  Williams told them what to do.  Of course, Hank Bauer, Yankee outfielder, late 1940s- 1950s suggested many players, him included, could not hit the other way.  That today's player can't bunt…!!!

These shifts keep scoring lower and that's acceptable.  [Opinion].

Strikeout thought:  today's player thinks a strikeout is OK!  Ithink we agree- boring.

My first game in April, 1961, started a 8PM.  Somehow, we fit my sister's birthday cake in for dessert and still went to the game.  At least I'm impressed.  (Maybe not. We lived on 182nd Street and the game was played at 161st Street).

And the Yankees may have ruined Joba Chamberlain.

Quickly then out:  3 problems [opinions]:
1) can't sacrifice bunt,
2) no complete games
3) the designated hitter

Have a nice day.

[barrett]

DiMaggio had 361 career home runs and only 369 career strikeouts. Ted Williams numbers were 521 and 709. Those numbers on DiMaggio are among the most impressive in baseball history.

TennPa, let's make Greg Luzinski the left fielder on the all-inertia team. Prince Fielder is eating his way into that lineup as well. Clay Dalrymple of the Phillies used to get gunned down at first base on hard hit line drives to right field, so he can handle the catching duties.

How have you guys not yet hit on the save stat as being a useless piece of the game?

[bedraggled]

The save stat may need another thread.  I am sure this is why Craigr and MediumTex set this place up.

[bedraggled]

TennPaGa,

That is the game.

I thought it ended 5-0 but my father liked leaving early in a lost cause.  This game fit the bill.

Berra almost hit a 3-run HR which would have put them back in the game but….  Kinda frustrating for the first game.  When we consider starting pitcher, Whitey Ford, was 25-4 in 1961, I am still disappointed.  Mantle and Maris created some breezes that night, too. 

Thanks.

[bedraggled]

TennPaGa,

Thanks to that box score you referenced, I went back and determined my father took us to opening day.  I am impressed.

Thanks.

[bedraggled]

Nobody commented on my beer keg in the first base coaching box snarky remark.

[bedraggled]

Baseball appeals or it doesn't.

My wife asserts football is boring: a lot of standing around, then they snap the ball followed by 2 to 5 seconds of doing "something."

[bedraggled]

Well,. here we are again.  I dredged it up.  Thanks, Tenn.

Found my big Yankees?Red Sox doubleheader: 9/15/1970.  Yankees swept.  Sat next to a Red Sox fan.  There was a civil tone between the 2 camps then.

If you are old enough, a major leaguer team had 9 or 10 pitchers.  Yeah, they can all throw 95 to 100 mph but they all break down.  Maybe they are not designed to throw 100 mph.

To be continued.

[Austen Heller]

I misread the title of this thread at first...

[bedraggled]

Austen,

Craig and Tex have set up a decorous forum here.  This is about baseball and the horrid designated hitter.

None the less, American League baseball had a perfect balance.  A pitcher always got a breather with the 8 and 9 batters.  The pitchers completed games as they did for almost a century.  Weak 8 and 9 batters had a role.  Now we get Babe Ruth batting 2 thru 8 and a couple of Rickey Hendersons leading off and batting 9!  Egad!  This its baseball?  To be a National League fan….

Baseball was perfectly balanced like the HBPP is now.  Adding the designated hitter is like adding utility stocks  to the Permanent Portfolio or, Heaven help us, substituting a residential REIT for VTI.  Let's add Facebook and drop SGOL!!

All is good, though, as we New York taxpayers are paying for the "new" Yankee Stadium for the next several generations.

Getting late.

[Austen Heller]

None the less, American League baseball had a perfect balance.  A pitcher always got a breather with the 8 and 9 batters.  The pitchers completed games as they did for almost a century.  Weak 8 and 9 batters had a role.  Now we get Babe Ruth batting 2 thru 8 and a couple of Rickey Hendersons leading off and batting 9!  Egad!  This its baseball?  To be a National League fan….

I don't watch baseball very often, but when I do, I prefer to watch the national league.  As an American, I'm a fan of lots of scoring, and when the  pitcher is up to bat, it's usually an automatic out.  Boring!!

[bedraggled]

Warming up with the following:

Yankees pitchers Whitey Ford and Fritz Peterson had the following comments:

Peterson: the hardest I ever threw was 86 mph,

Ford: if I were being scouted today, they never would have signed me- too slow.

In Yankee Stadium history, the 2 pitchers who had the best ERAs were (1) Ford, (2) Peterson.

Today's pitchers break down @ 95+ mph.  And, maybe, fast ain't necessarily pitching.  Might be called throwing.  "Hey, wait!  It's the 4th inning.  Get the bullpen up!" 

This is baseball?

More soon.

Cheers, and thanks, Tenn.

[bedraggled]

Nothing like dredging up an old thread. It's been 2 years for this one!

I went to the Mets' minor league/ spring training facility to see the 'A' level minor league team. (This was my second minor league game ever I saw the Binghampton Bees in 1995, also Mets organization). Low level minor league ball is fun. The hitting is not crisp. Nothing pulled and only long, lazy fly balls and all kinda nice.

Well, I saw, once again, the modern iteration of baseball. Ninety minutes were consumed getting through the first 2 innings. In the 3rd inning, the 4th pitcher came into the game AND there was a big conference on the pitchers mound- again in the 3rd inning! The umpire strolled out and they still lingered a few seconds. I informed my brother, who brought his grand kids, the game may end at midnight. We left 20 minutes later. Fairness demands I mention that the game was low minor league, so teaching is in order but....

The pitchers threw 90-95 mph. Where are the slower throwers?

All-in-all, it was fun and astounding.

Mel Stottlemyre routinely threw two hour games and often shorter. Bob Gibson tossed a 1 hour, 22 minute shutout in 1968. (I believe that's to the minute).

At $6 per ticket, I had a great time, though. I still miss the original Yankee Stadium.

Next topic: the All-Star game home run derby.

[Xan]

I think it's only been one year and change, bedraggled.

Your "where are the slower throwers" question brought to mind this article I'd read recently:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/07/19/new-y ... tball-rate
Basically, the traditional idea that most pitches should be fastballs may be on the way out.

[Kriegsspiel]

Well shit, I must have been ahead of the curve back in I was catching in HS. My friend had an absolutely wicked curveball, so that's what I had him throw most of the time. Especially when we had two strikes, I'd have him throw a curve into the dirt that they'd inevitably swing at. I wonder how his elbow feels now.

[bedraggled]

Kriegsspiel,

I immediately thought of your friend's arm at the end of the first line of your post. Elbows can hurt. Tennis elbow on the inside and golfer's elbow on the outside.

Xan,

Great story on the current thoughts re fastballs.

I do not see much baseball lately but it's fun following Aaron Judge on the web. This brings me to my next bit of whining.

I heard several years ago that the All Star Game home run derby damaged the mechanics of at least several hitters for 10-14 games after.
Aaron Judge came back from the HR derby and went 3 for 26 with many pop-ups. He appears to be back in form. Is there any benefit to this HR derby? I understand baseball is losing its following- the derby ain't helping. That moat at the "new" Yankee Stadium probably is adding to the problem.

Another thought on the All Star game. In 1955, Ted Williams told Mickey Mantle while in the dugout during the game that in the first several at bats in a game Teddy Ball Game swung at the top half of the ball and in the late innings he swung at the bottom half for the long ball/home run possibility. Williams asked Mantle what Mantle did. Mantle had no idea what Williams was talking about but got home and as Mickey said "I went 0 for 30, or something like that."

Do we conclude the All Star game is troublesome, and without a solution regardless of the era?

There is a 1955 Al Kaline/Mickey Mantle story for next time.

Thanks to TennPaGa for keeping this thread on life support.

[Mountaineer]

IDK why, but every time this thread appears on the unread topics list, I still keep reading it as Designated Hitler. Does this count as Godwin's Law?

Typically, one’s presuppositions impact what one hears and sees. For example, two people can see or hear the exact same thing and arrive at two different conclusions. Could that be the case re your seeing Hitler in a line of very similar letters? Just a thought.

[bedraggled]

And in 1955, second year Detroit Tigers outfielder Al Kaline was being heckled by fans in the Yankee Stadium right field, field level seats

The taunt was: "Hey, Kaline, you're not half as good as Mantle."

Kaline's response was "Nobody is."

Keep in mind that Kaline hit .340 that year with 200 hits and 27 HRs- the batting average and hits were the league's best.

I saw Mantle during his decline. People who saw young Mantle said he was beyond. Must have been something to witness.

[bedraggled]

Tenn, et al,

I might be mistaken but it seems the hard throwers are breaking down a lot.

Could it be poor health?

Here's a story about durability from the early 1960s.

When Juan Marichal was a rookie on the Giants he lost a 15 inning shutout to 43 year old Warren Spahn of the Braves, final score: 1-0. Giants manager Herman Franks approached Marichal in the dugout in the 13th inning. Marichal yelled "get away from me. You're not taking me out before that old man." Both threw complete games.

Both pitchers had long, healthy careers.

Now, Yankees pitchers Mel Stottlemyre and Fritz Peterson, from the 1960s and 1970s, threw huge quantities of inning, 280+ innings routinely, with one year at 303 innings pitched. Both pitchers had their shoulders blow.

[bedraggled]

I heard that when Johnny Sain was pitching coach for the Atlanta Braves in the mid- 1990s, Sain would help a 95 mph thrower slow to 91 mph. The pitcher could often control the pitch better and hit the corners, shutting down the hitter. Must be nice to be a respected pitching coach.

Tenn,
You are correct about going all-out. Does "all-out" destroy careers? Would be nice to see a remedy to this problem.

[bedraggled]

Ok, now, a bit of the esoteric. I just had my 466th post, which was the deepest distance in feet in Yankee Stadium, just to the left of the monuments and the 463 FT. sign. They had the flag pole and loud speaker out there, too, by the monuments.

I understand the Polo Grounds was 490 FT. to center and Cleveland Municipal was at least 490 FT. to center.

Just thought you should know.

[bedraggled]

Tenn,

Your resources are impressive. The Polo Grounds diagram tells us that the Willie Mays catch of Dick Wertz's moon blast was about 445 feet from home plate. I thought the ball travelled 480 feet. That info suggests Mays and Wertz are/were mere mortals. Mays is still alive and, I believe, living in the Bronx, therefore the "are/were" reference.

When Lou Brock was a rookie with the Cubs, he homered into the left centerfield bleachers against the Mets. Casey Stengel told his team just before the next day's game that they should appreciate Brock's blast as they wouldn't see anything like that again. Of course, Brock homered to the same place that day. Both homers were in the 465-475 feet range. Stengel knew his baseball as he started playing at the Polo Grounds around the time of WWI, 1914 +/-. For whatever reason, Brock stole bases in his career and skipped the home runs. Those 2 weekend bombs in 1963 confuse me.

[bedraggled]

Tenn,

I must be lazy. Ball park diagrams must be available on the web. The large dimension probably tell that the home run was not a factor in early baseball. I will check Cleveland Municipal Stadium later. As that stadium was built in the Ruth era, the distant dimensions are confusing. The place held 81,000 attendees! Cleveland was a significant, prosperous place at one time