College is Overrated

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I Shrugged
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College is Overrated

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:56 am

I didn't want to hijack the Fred and Shop Class threads....

I am sure this has been discussed here before, at least tangentially to some other point.  I contend that college education is a false god.  Too many kids are going to college.  It's a bubble.  Fred Read pretty much spelled it out. 

Point 1: A well-rounded education.  My wife and I bought into that idea; our kids did not.  They, and as far as we could tell, most all students, took the path of least resistance through all of the now silly requisite politically correct classes.  If they learned anything in those classes, it was accidental.  And much of it not worth learning anyway.  It's not like they were learning the Great Books or anything of the sort.  More like pick one from: The women's movement of the 1920s, The story of voodoo, etc etc.  If you haven't seen this for yourself, you'll think I'm exaggerating.  I'm not.

Point 2:  A liberal arts degree.  As a practical matter, if a kid is going to get a liberal arts degree, he and/or his parents might as well get a suitcase full of one hundred dollar bills, and set it on fire.  There are no jobs for these graduates.  We have one of them, and we know quite a few more.  Now, if they continue on to a graduate degree, there are jobs, usually, depending on the degree of course.  Our BA grad is on that path now.   

Point 2A: A professional degree.  Get one.  Accounting, engineering, physical therapy, math, science, whatever.  Maybe business, although I suspect that has already become the weak one in the professional degree world.

Point 3: The cost.  All the various grant and loan programs have done is to give the colleges a license to steal.  Increase the aid, and the colleges ratchet up the costs.  When we toured colleges, it was astounding how many glorious buildings were being put up.  Oh, the old gym wasn't good enough any more.  We need this new state of the art gym.

Point 4: Changing majors.  Kids change majors like clothes.  First, there are too many majors.  Most 18 year olds don't have a clue, and they are supposed to pick from a gazillion majors.  The cognitive dissonance is overwhelming.  The facts are, except for professional paths, your major hardly matters.  Liberal arts = work at Starbucks and/or go to grad school.  See point 2A.  Pick something, do your best to stick with it.  Allow yourself one change of mind.  Take the most generic courses in the first two years to keep your options open.  I know it's supposed to work that way to begin with, but it doesn't seem to.

In summary, there aren't enough jobs for all the college graduates.  Stop thinking that everyone should be going to college. 
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:38 am

I Shrugged wrote: Point 1: A well-rounded education.  My wife and I bought into that idea; our kids did not.  They, and as far as we could tell, most all students, took the path of least resistance through all of the now silly requisite politically correct classes.  If they learned anything in those classes, it was accidental.  And much of it not worth learning anyway.  It's not like they were learning the Great Books or anything of the sort.  More like pick one from: The women's movement of the 1920s, The story of voodoo, etc etc.  If you haven't seen this for yourself, you'll think I'm exaggerating.  I'm not.
100% correct. The whole idea is a scam. These sorts of classes are pretty much subtly brainwashing liberal-themed babysitting for 20 year-olds. You can become well-rounded on your own with free resources if you want to, anyway. Most thoughtful people do. Most non-thoughtful people don't, even if you try to teach them.

I Shrugged wrote: Point 2:  A liberal arts degree.  As a practical matter, if a kid is going to get a liberal arts degree, he and/or his parents might as well get a suitcase full of one hundred dollar bills, and set it on fire.  There are no jobs for these graduates.  We have one of them, and we know quite a few more.  Now, if they continue on to a graduate degree, there are jobs, usually, depending on the degree of course.  Our BA grad is on that path now.
100% correct, with the additional problem that nowadays so many unemployed debt-wracked liberal arts grads are going on to get graduate degrees in the hope of employment that prospects are drying up there, too. Tons of my liberal-arts-degree-holding college classmates are currently working on their PhDs in the hope of some kind of teaching position opening up in the next decade. There are maybe a few thousand of these job openings every year. It's madness. They are consigning themselves to lifetimes of poverty and bitterness.

Don't do it!

I Shrugged wrote: Point 2A: A professional degree.  Get one.  Accounting, engineering, physical therapy, math, science, whatever.  Maybe business, although I suspect that has already become the weak one in the professional degree world.
Almost right; a business major is now largely useless too. It means nothing, signifies nothing. Science is a bit risky too; most pure science jobs are funded by the government; the prospects in the private sector are slimmer than you might expect, especially for biology (chemistry and physics are more useful because they're more applicable to making salable products, like drugs, new forms of plastic, and weapons of mass destruction).

IMHO the only real reason to go to an academic college is to major in something that will make you a lot of money. That would primarily be engineering, finance, medicine, and still law to a certain extent. All hard fields. Here's the secret: if it's really really hard and your social life suffers while studying it, you'll probably make a lot of money doing it (and your social life will still suffer). Easy fields don't open any doors except for maybe social connections and special circumstances, like studying fashion in NYC or video game design in Seattle.

I Shrugged wrote: Point 3: The cost.  All the various grant and loan programs have done is to give the colleges a license to steal.  Increase the aid, and the colleges ratchet up the costs.  When we toured colleges, it was astounding how many glorious buildings were being put up.  Oh, the old gym wasn't good enough any more.  We need this new state of the art gym.
Yup, that's where most of the money is going: fancy shit to impress gullible parents. Professor salaries, too. I remember reading in my college newspaper once about how our professors were complaining about their below-average salaries. Their average was $105,000 I believe. The article helpfully pointed out that the average for humanities professors country-wide was in the 120s as I recall. And what remains goes to financial aid to improve "diversity," paid for by everyone else in the form of higher tuition.

I Shrugged wrote: Point 4: Changing majors.  Kids change majors like clothes.  First, there are too many majors.  Most 18 year olds don't have a clue, and they are supposed to pick from a gazillion majors.  The cognitive dissonance is overwhelming.  The facts are, except for professional paths, your major hardly matters.  Liberal arts = work at Starbucks and/or go to grad school.  See point 2A.  Pick something, do your best to stick with it.  Allow yourself one change of mind.  Take the most generic courses in the first two years to keep your options open.  I know it's supposed to work that way to begin with, but it doesn't seem to.
100% correct, with the additional point that if you don't know what you want to study, you probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Going to college to figure out your life trajectory is probably the most expensive way to possibly do it. Take a year off and work in the real world for a bit first. If you must enter the environment of higher education and browse around, do it in a cheap community college.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Greg » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:53 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
I Shrugged wrote: Point 1: A well-rounded education.  My wife and I bought into that idea; our kids did not.  They, and as far as we could tell, most all students, took the path of least resistance through all of the now silly requisite politically correct classes.  If they learned anything in those classes, it was accidental.  And much of it not worth learning anyway.  It's not like they were learning the Great Books or anything of the sort.  More like pick one from: The women's movement of the 1920s, The story of voodoo, etc etc.  If you haven't seen this for yourself, you'll think I'm exaggerating.  I'm not.
100% correct. The whole idea is a scam. These sorts of classes are pretty much subtly brainwashing liberal-themed babysitting for 20 year-olds. You can become well-rounded on your own with free resources if you want to, anyway. Most thoughtful people do. Most non-thoughtful people don't, even if you try to teach them.
This is exactly how I got into finance and economics (i.e. this forum, reading books on the subjects, etc.) I have a background in engineering, but I had an interest in this and now help my friends with these subjects for personal finance management. Total cost to me for this education ~$35 for buying books
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:37 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Almost right; a business major is now largely useless too. It means nothing, signifies nothing. Science is a bit risky too; most pure science jobs are funded by the government; the prospects in the private sector are slimmer than you might expect, especially for biology (chemistry and physics are more useful because they're more applicable to making salable products, like drugs, new forms of plastic, and weapons of mass destruction).
I sort of lost interest in testing out for a BS in Business which can be done 100% that way.  Even if it is dramatically cheaper than going to a traditional college ($6K in 1.5 years), I have trouble seeing what use it is to go through the all studying/testing stress for a bit of self-pride peacocking.  Can you convince me otherwise it would have any use?
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:46 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Almost right; a business major is now largely useless too. It means nothing, signifies nothing. Science is a bit risky too; most pure science jobs are funded by the government; the prospects in the private sector are slimmer than you might expect, especially for biology (chemistry and physics are more useful because they're more applicable to making salable products, like drugs, new forms of plastic, and weapons of mass destruction).
I sort of lost interest in testing out for a BS in Business which can be done 100% that way.  Even if it is dramatically cheaper than going to a traditional college ($6K in 1.5 years), I have trouble seeing what use it is to go through the all studying/testing stress for a bit of self-pride peacocking.  Can you convince me otherwise it would have any use?
Nope. I have two co-workers who picked up master's degrees in business and both report that it is nothing more than a plaque on the wall. Zero utility. It's the money-minded equivalent of the degree in communications--pretty much worthless, but an easy enough default choice if you don't know what else to do.

I mean, basically, the degree itself is devoid of value. A degree is simply a social signaling device that signifies something about you. I've been in hiring and one of my friends is now a full-time recruiter. A BS in business says, "I have no idea what I want to do with my life." An MS in business says, "The first thing I thought I wanted to do with my life didn't work so I'm hoping being a pointy-haired boss can be my fallback."

These are impressions you will need to overcome in order to succeed; the degrees are frequently hindrances. Don't ask what the various liberal arts degrees say about you... :o
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by stone » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:55 pm

My impression is that it is very much harder to teach yourself a tricky subject than it is to learn it at college.

My guess is that it is the critical marking that is the crucial aid. Of course anyone anywhere pretty much could get hold of all the crucial texts and read them. But ensuring that all the crucial stuff is learnt properly and that knowledge can be put to coherent use -that's the key.

I heard something about how with the new MOOCs (massively open online courses), it's really helpful if the students try and help each other out in discussion forums for the courses. Trying to explain stuff to each other helps them to get their heads around it.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:02 pm

stone wrote: My impression is that it is very much harder to teach yourself a tricky subject than it is to learn it at college.
My personal experience is different.  In grade school I bought a sliderule and had to pick up a book on logarithms at the local library to understand it.

I built a sextant from scratch as a highschool freshman, but to figure out how to use it, I borrowed an 18th century British guide to navigation and taught myself spherical trigonometry.

Calculus seemed pretty intuitive and obvious - so that was an easy and fun read one summer.

But when I went to college, I didn't know any standard trigonometry or algebra so I had to take remedial math courses.  I learned plenty in those classes, no complaints.  But in the more advanced college math classes, I couldn't understand a thing.

I learned all of that math on my own - trying to figure out the homework problems in my physics, chemistry, engineering and economics classes.  I'm pretty good at that stuff in the real world, but I still can't understand classroom math at all.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:40 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
stone wrote: My impression is that it is very much harder to teach yourself a tricky subject than it is to learn it at college.
My personal experience is different.  In grade school I bought a sliderule and had to pick up a book on logarithms at the local library to understand it.

I built a sextant from scratch as a highschool freshman, but to figure out how to use it, I borrowed an 18th century British guide to navigation and taught myself spherical trigonometry.

Calculus seemed pretty intuitive and obvious - so that was an easy and fun read one summer.

But when I went to college, I didn't know any standard trigonometry or algebra so I had to take remedial math courses.  I learned plenty in those classes, no complaints.  But in the more advanced college math classes, I couldn't understand a thing.

I learned all of that math on my own - trying to figure out the homework problems in my physics, chemistry, engineering and economics classes.  I'm pretty good at that stuff in the real world, but I still can't understand classroom math at all.
Mark,

Boy did your very impressive story trigger a memory for me.  I needed a 3 hour "technical" type class my last semester of college to complete my engineering degree and graduate.  I was browsing the course catalog and came upon "Advanced Applied Math".  I thought, wow, finally a math class with some practicality I might use someday.  I neglected to ask anyone about the class details, stupid me!  If memory serves, the instructor was here his first year out of the University of Bombay, could not speak English effectively, I never knew his name, he scrawled stuff on the board then mumbled something about the proof being obvious then erased what he had just written and proceeded to fill another board full of scrawls, he gave 4 tests including mid-term and final and 2 homework assignments for credit, threw out the lowest 2 of the 6 and then you got your grade - absolute basis, no curve.  There were about 8 of us in the class.  I recall endless dell dots, tripple integrals, and other unknown to me now stuff I've long forgotten.  I remember taking the final, walking out not knowing if I had made 100% or 0% or something in between.  Grades came out: 1 B, 2 C, 2 or 3 D, and 2 or 3 F.  I had a C and thus could graduate; it was my third C in 5 years of college, the other two being physical education and humanities  :).  Finally, my nightmares are gone but every time I get a tech on the phone who is obviously from India I shudder.  Thanks (I think) for helping me dredge that from the memory banks.  ;)

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Re: College is Overrated

Post by WiseOne » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:59 pm

Agree with everything that Mountaineer and PS said, except professor salaries.  The numbers are probably skewed because there are two components to salary:  base salary which is bare sustenance (e.g. $77K for an Assistant Professor in my NYC university; many places it's < $40K), and a couple of different kinds of supplements that must be funded through outside sources, mainly clinical work if applicable and grant funding. The "rock star" professors who get big bucks have earned their way with grant funding.

Nope, most of tuition is going either to pay for new drapes for the Dean's office or (mostly) impressive new buildings to attract the sort of parents willing to pay ever higher tuition bills, as well as rock star principle investigators.  Think of it as the college version of the advertising budget.

DEFINITELY agree that fewer people should be going to college, and that most "majors" amount to dilettante training.  Something like the UK's A levels, with the first two years of college essentially merged into the local high school with screening at each year, would be a step in the right direction.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:23 pm

WiseOne wrote: Agree with everything that Mountaineer and PS said, except professor salaries.  The numbers are probably skewed because there are two components to salary:  base salary which is bare sustenance (e.g. $77K for an Assistant Professor in my NYC university; many places it's < $40K), and a couple of different kinds of supplements that must be funded through outside sources, mainly clinical work if applicable and grant funding.
Yeah, it's true, the only professors making the big bucks are the lucky baby boomer tenured full professors, who universally make six figures and have some of the craziest benefit packages I've ever seen. Then you have adjuncts who may be barely making more than FOUR figures and lots of desperate assistant professors somewhere in between, with a whole lot of scrambling for grant money to skim off the top from to make ends meet. No wonder income inequality is such a hot topic in the nation's universities... ::)
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:57 pm

Mountaineer wrote: I was browsing the course catalog and came upon "Advanced Applied Math".  I thought, wow, finally a math class with some practicality I might use someday.  <snip unfortunate reality...>
Great story Mountaineer!


I picked up a book at a yardsale called "Applied Mathematics" when I was in my mid-20's.
Best real book I have ever worked through.  It taught everything from calculating the height of a tree to the number of yards of concrete you would need to pour a slab.  Sadly unavailable today.

For budding engineers, I strongly encourage getting a copy of the General Electric "A
course for Engineers"

http://www.amazon.com/Engineering-Analy ... B0006E9QPK

I have the first print copy in storage - and if you can work your way through the whole book you will be more useful than any Silicon Valley code slinger.  And code slinging will be something you could do in your sleep.  Just sayin...
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by stone » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:46 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
stone wrote: My impression is that it is very much harder to teach yourself a tricky subject than it is to learn it at college.
My personal experience is different.  In grade school I bought a sliderule and had to pick up a book on logarithms at the local library to understand it.

I built a sextant from scratch as a highschool freshman, but to figure out how to use it, I borrowed an 18th century British guide to navigation and taught myself spherical trigonometry.

Calculus seemed pretty intuitive and obvious - so that was an easy and fun read one summer.

But when I went to college, I didn't know any standard trigonometry or algebra so I had to take remedial math courses.  I learned plenty in those classes, no complaints.  But in the more advanced college math classes, I couldn't understand a thing.

I learned all of that math on my own - trying to figure out the homework problems in my physics, chemistry, engineering and economics classes.  I'm pretty good at that stuff in the real world, but I still can't understand classroom math at all.
What I was trying to say wasn't so much that sitting in lectures is an easy way to imbibe knowledge -far from it; like you (and I guess most people) I'm only really able to learn tricky stuff studying on my own -working through problems. Rather, I was meaning that a good college course helps to bring students' attention to gaps in their knowledge that need to be filled. Also the community of other learners inspires each student with the expectation that this is stuff that can and must be grasped.

I think someone learning in total isolation with no guidance or feedback would be very much at risk of only gaining a very patchy grasp of the subject and perhaps not having the confidence that they were up to learning it all.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by barrett » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:49 am

Having a daughter who is a junior in high school, I am finding this thread very sobering. I myself didn't learn well in a school environment and am also of the autodidact bent, though not so accomplished as some on here.

Our daughter seems to learn a lot when she has a teacher who is skilled at putting stuff across in an interesting way. She learns virtually nothing from books on her own. I think that is probably normal but what to do about college and the shrinking pool of decent jobs? Anyone else on here have kids that are close in age to ours? Though we have some savings for her education, I am really at a loss as to how to advise her beyond the terribly generic "work hard." When I look toward the future I don't see a land of possibilities. Argh!
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by WiseOne » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:37 am

Barrett that's a really good question.  I have a 17 year old niece who is planning to attend an expensive private school and major in biology.  She's quite likely to come out the other end buried in student loans with a useless degree and no more idea of what she wants to do in life than she has now, as I can't see her going on to graduate or medical school.  It feels like the college education is being pursued as if it were just another acquisition, like the iPad and the car (yes, my sister bought her a car for her 17th birthday...argh.)

For someone who is nearing high school graduation with no idea of what she wants to do...what about interning or getting an intro-level job in an area that she might be interested in?  To take a random example, if she's interested in journalism, NPR or even the Daily Show offer internships.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:25 am

barrett wrote: Having a daughter who is a junior in high school, I am finding this thread very sobering. I myself didn't learn well in a school environment and am also of the autodidact bent, though not so accomplished as some on here.

Our daughter seems to learn a lot when she has a teacher who is skilled at putting stuff across in an interesting way. She learns virtually nothing from books on her own. I think that is probably normal but what to do about college and the shrinking pool of decent jobs? Anyone else on here have kids that are close in age to ours? Though we have some savings for her education, I am really at a loss as to how to advise her beyond the terribly generic "work hard." When I look toward the future I don't see a land of possibilities. Argh!
I have a 2 year-old and just graduated a little over 6 years ago, so not quite in that range, but it's something I think about a lot.

What are your daughter's main interests that could become fulfilling and well-paying jobs? Is she any good at computers, design, or money? Does she have any entrepreneurial tendencies? What is the reason for her to go to college? As discussed above, the best reasons are to learn difficult subjects for which there is great market demand. If she is not interested in any of these subjects, than college becomes riskier.


Here are some ideas for your daughter:

1. Take a year off before college to learn a bit more about the real world and explore her interests and get a feel for how the world operates before she enters the pleasurable bubble of academia

2. Enter the world of higher education in community college, and browse around there to discover when she's interested in, and perhaps get motivated to exceed the schlubs she'll meet there

3. Use above-average levels of cunning to get a free ride out of an otherwise expensive private university by applying to places slightly below her level who will be desperate for her

These options are risk management strategies and are highly recommended for the obvious benefits such strategies provide; think of them as the Permanent Higher Education Regime. Applying, say, exclusively to expensive liberal arts colleges is like investing 100% of your money in the stock market. It might work--it worked for me--but it probably won't--it didn't for 95% of my classmates, who are now mostly permanently impoverished, embittered, far left radicals.


Then there's option 4, which is politically incorrect and possibly offensive so I hesitate to mention it, but it's the truth: option 4 is to go to the highest powered school possible with the hope of snagging a mate with good career possibilities. An attractive, intelligent asian-american young woman is bound to be borderline irresistible to hormonal young men in a mostly unsupervised, highly sexualized, alcohol-rich environment (what, you didn't think that's what college was? ;D). If placed in a situation where the young men are more likely than not to have successful lives, she could have a real possibility of hitching her wagon to a winner. This was after all traditionally why young women were sent to college in the first place--to hobnob with go-getter men who would make good husband material. For all the feminism being thrown around on campus, I can personally attest that this phenomenon is alive and well.

I did say it was politically incorrect, no? :P

But whatever you do, don't borrow $100k to send her to Bryn Mawr so she can study Queer Oppression Theory! You'd be better off burning the money and dropping her off at a transgender bar.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:10 am

stone wrote: I think someone learning in total isolation with no guidance or feedback would be very much at risk of only gaining a very patchy grasp of the subject and perhaps not having the confidence that they were up to learning it all.
Judging from my Coursera experience, you definitely need to have other student's help and collaboration at times.  It depends on the subject matter, though, since course quality varies widely.  One course I failed was Introduction to Finance (corporate finance)!  The disconnect between the ebullient lectures and the difficult assignments were an order of magnitude and drove me up the wall.  In the teacher's actual meatspace course with the same assignments, it was a team and classroom-based approach rather than individual.  Most of it is my fault because I approach MOOC's linearly in that I expect lectures to contain everything I need to learn rather than having my time wasted with fluff and ultimately relying on dry pricey textbooks, other resources, etc. for the real meat.  My impression is MOOC's haven't quite evolved out of the classroom model yet; they're still relying on replicating fluff lectures, textbooks for meat, online collaboration to understand and other meatspace shticks.  I disagree enough with that model being applied virtually that I'm just not willing to be flexible.

Finally after 15 or so courses that I've passed with nothing but forum help at the most, I decided that enough is enough and I just audit them from now on and not worry about passing the assignments and exams.  After all, I'm doing this to improve my own wisdom, not prove anything to anyone else with a Statement of Accomplishment.  My stress levels have since gone down remarkedly, but I'm also lazier now too!

Right now I'm currently taking Intro to American Law, Surveillance Law, Machine Learning and Intro to Genetics & Evolution (my fourth on genetics).  This would never ever happen in a meatspace college where you're forced to conform to some degree track like a good little cog in the machine.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by barrett » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:21 am

Thanks for your input, PS & WiseOne!

WiseOne, I like the idea of internships and am trying to push our daughter in that direction for this summer (the one between her junior and senior years of high school).

PS, I'll go with options 1,3 & 4! I love the idea of gap years and think they can also be beneficial just in terms of a kid getting a break in their studies. And getting real world experience can only be a plus.

Option 3 is the path we have been planning on more or less, positioning assets and jumping through other hoops... just playing the damn game the way it is set up. But the kid still needs to be employable when she graduates, right?

Being Chinese my wife talks openly about all kinds of things that are not necessarily PC, and option 4 is one that she has put out there many times. Whether male or female, a person has better odds of meeting a future high earner at a high-powered school. Of course high-earning women don't tend to latch onto low-earning men, but we are not worried here about how the world maybe should work!
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:27 am

barrett wrote: She learns virtually nothing from books on her own. I think that is probably normal but what to do about college and the shrinking pool of decent jobs?
To me, this sounds like a promising student for a vocational track rather than wasting money on a useless liberal arts degree that doesn't help job security.  Geeks have inherited the earth and they're not the kind that don't learn from books.  Trying to compete with them when you're not capable of it seems really foolish.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:29 am

Pointedstick wrote: 2. Enter the world of higher education in community college, and browse around there to discover when she's interested in, and perhaps get motivated to exceed the schlubs she'll meet there
Just don't turn this into a way to get into a major college; it doesn't work.  The failure rate is like 97%.  It should be like how I view MOOC's, an excuse for learning knowledge not transferable college credits.

Option #4 is a waste of human potential.  Is that all Asian woman inspire to these days, is being trophy wives, shopping and projecting their insecurity by wearing designer brands?  Come on, people!  Evolve.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:32 am

barrett wrote: Option 3 is the path we have been planning on more or less, positioning assets and jumping through other hoops... just playing the damn game the way it is set up. But the kid still needs to be employable when she graduates, right?
Right. Even if she gets a free ride at a good school, if she doesn't learn anything that makes her employable in the elite world she'll have become accustomed to in a selective school, she'll be disappointed and embittered, even if she's not crushed by debt. Nobody ever mentions this; once you've experienced 4 years surrounded by intellectually stimulating potential future elites, you're not going to want move back to a small town, so to speak.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:42 am

Desert wrote: Anyway, for HS students these days, I agree with previous posters that college makes the most sense for those pursuing a defined, decent-paying career path.  Just off the top of my head, those paths include:  Medicine, Engineering, Accounting, and Sales.  There are no salespeople on this forum, so we can cross that one off the list.  Accounting is a really good field, in my opinion.  It's pretty challenging, but not as difficult as Engineering or Medicine.  The only MBA that's worth much is one from a top 5 program.  You need to be an extrovert to do well in those programs, so again we can probably cross that off the list for most forum posters and their children.
Finance in general, I would say. My sister was recently dating a fellow who's good at math and decided he wanted to be rich, so he's currently studying to be an actuary. He attended an in-state school and is brilliant, so he got a free ride. He has already gotten a paid internship at a major financial firm where on a monthly basis he made almost as much money as I do. Actuary Science is probably better for your mental health too than most of the prospects in that industry, since you'd be doing more of the "calculating when old men will die" than the "scamming old men out of their life savings."
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:21 am

Pointedstick wrote: Finance in general, I would say. My sister was recently dating a fellow who's good at math and decided he wanted to be rich, so he's currently studying to be an actuary. He attended an in-state school and is brilliant, so he got a free ride. He has already gotten a paid internship at a major financial firm where on a monthly basis he made almost as much money as I do. Actuary Science is probably better for your mental health too than most of the prospects in that industry, since you'd be doing more of the "calculating when old men will die" than the "scamming old men out of their life savings."
Devil's Advocate: Isn't something as mundane as Actuarial Science ripe for AI?  Why do humans even need to be involved when they can't think non-linearly?  Where's the job security?  Why isn't this like redundant middle management back when corporations provided defined benefits and golden parachutes?

So bascially it sounds like we should redefine FIRE for job purposes: Finance, Insurance, Real Estate, Engineering and add an M for Medicine.  Fire'm all for the robots!  ;)
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:35 am

MachineGhost wrote: Devil's Advocate: Isn't something as mundane as Actuarial Science ripe for AI?  Why do humans even need to be involved when they can't think non-linearly?  Where's the job security?  Why isn't this like redundant middle management back when corporations provided defined benefits and golden parachutes?
I think it will definitely happen, but it hasn't yet for some reason. The best approach here would probably be to enter the field, and save as big a percentage of your paycheck as possible so you could basically have ERE in your back pocket in case your career were automated out of existence.

I mean, most of finance is ripe for automation. Traders are already being replaced by computer programmers who build and maintain trading software. Insurance and loan applications could basically be the same way.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:24 am

MangoMan wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Applying, say, exclusively to expensive liberal arts colleges is like investing 100% of your money in the stock market. It might work--it worked for me--but it probably won't--it didn't for 95% of my classmates, who are now mostly permanently impoverished, embittered, far left radicals.
Ugh. So are you saying what we have to look forward to is a whole new group of educated liberals who will keep both chambers of congress and the presidency in the hands of the extreme democrats?  :P
Sort of. Most of them are not politician material, although there are an awful of of them who are going on to become staffers, functionaries, bureaucrats, etc. And they are certainly going to to vote for Democrats. But let's not overstate their numbers. And young people always vote for the liberal candidates. A lot will peel off as they mature and get their lives together and the idea of hurting successful people starts to lose its luster.
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Re: College is Overrated

Post by stone » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:56 am

Isn't there some happy medium between not blundering into becoming debt ridden and unemployable, and yet at the same time not having your life course dictated by scurrying around seeking money? It sort of saddens me to think of an 18 year old choosing a career path based on the hope that it pays well. If someone finds finance fun then great and then the great pay is a bonus. But otherwise why spend a massive chunk of your life on something just because the pay is good? Surely all that matters is to do what you love and to be able to live OK from it? What's so special about being rich?

Barret said that his daughter wasn't a swot and liked biology. Perhaps if she isn't someone who is likely to fancy do a Phd and such like, then doing something like nursing or radiography might be an option?

Machine Ghost, I saw something about MOOC learning where it said that the trick was to try the asignments before viewing the lectures. Apparently on some courses that is what the majority of the students do.
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