It's all about China

[Ad Orientem]

Mom
You reeeaaallly need to write a travel or ex-pat guide. But only when you are 100% certain you will never be returning to China.

[WiseOne]

This is a wonderful perspective not just on China, but on the U.S. as well.  A great way to start the New Year!

Interesting to hear about the selection bias in high school performance measures.  Could this also explain why Americans lag behind virtually all other industrialized nations?  There is something similar in the UK for example, where kids start following different tracks by age 16.  Maybe our problem is forcing kids to choose between dropping out and completing a college prep curriculum that's useless for many of them.  The resulting watering down of the college prep curriculum in turn feeds into a proliferation of third rate colleges whose main purpose in life is to saddle students with debt.  Tracking kids who are academically limited into vocational career paths would make a ton of sense.  This would necessarily involve judging academic performance in ways that may be politically unpalatable in the US, but it doesn't have to be as draconian as it is in China.

[dualstow]

Sure they have a court system. Haven't you seen Qiu Ju? 

Anyway, learning a lot from you, Momto2.

I just picked up some pasture-pig bacon. I've never lasted long with vegetarianism, but it's nice to know that no 'sow stalls' were involved. I'm very sad to read about the dogs and bears in your second post, but we have to remind the world about these goings-on.

As to the bribes for letting children sit up front in a classroom, well, I'm sure that's because of the insane pressure there is in the schools.  This is in no small part due to the gao kao (pronounced: gow cow, with those words rhyming). The gao kao is... terrifying. It's the Chinese equivalent of every SAT or ACT test a high schooler would ever take together with all the high school grades they will ever earn.

Yeah, that test is big in Taiwan, too. In Japan, it used to be that students would study their asses off so that they could get into the right university and then party for four years. Then, they would work their asses off until death. I think they have a special word for working yourself to death, karoshi or something. (?)

My wife thinks even high marks on the dreaded gao kao won't cut it anymore; you need bribes on top of it. Don't know if that's true.

[MachineGhost]

For example, the big animal-linked expat outrage while I was there were the gallbladder bear farms. Evidently, the liquid (bile?) that a bear's gallbladder produces is very valuable and is used for all sorts of Chinese medications/cosmetics/who knows what. Thus, Chinese businesspeople, anxious to meet the need for this commodity, had set up extensive farms/facilities where bears had perpetual tubes extruding from their gallbladders so as to capture the bile. The tubes were never removed and the bears were restrained so they couldn't claw the tubes out. I'm sure this is still going on, because the expats were the only ones outraged. Capitalism? Even more pure than that you could find in America, with its pesky rules and regulations about animal welfare?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nann ... ear-rescue

I donated.

IMO, the #1 problem with the Chinese is they have no respect for themselves or for other lifeforms.  China is nothing but a paper tiger, literally.  And once they go through their eventual Great Depression, maybe they'll do some deep soul-searching and then they'll get a fucking clue.

Other than that, China sounds like a living Orwellian-Libertarian nightmare.  They are nothing but teenagers at best and worthy of contempt. 

[dualstow]

  China is nothing but a paper tiger, literally. 

Figuratively, probably,
but thanks for that link!

[MomTo2Boys]

Oh my goodness, MachineGhost - that's... wow.  I had no idea there were bear rescue facilities in Chengdu, but there obviously are.  Thank you for posting that, and thank you for donating. 

There are some fantastic folks on this forum, there really are.

Dualstow, believe it or not, I *have* seen that movie.  I saw it back in 2011, so it's been a while, but yes, I saw it.  As for whether bribes are now needed in addition to great gao kao scores... I'm sure your wife knows far more about China and those sorts of things than I do.  I will say that the ability of wealthy Chinese families to be able to easily send their college-bound students who don't do well enough on the gao kao (or even those who do, if they wish) to colleges in the United States takes a lot of pressure off the Chinese government, I should think, in this area.

WiseOne, yes, I think so.  My 16 year old son actually has been attending a school for a while that is based on the British educational system.  It's completely different than the US system.  Basically, in the British system, they teach all students all subjects until the end of what we in the States would call 10th grade.  By the end of (the equivalent of) 10th grade, British students have had roughly of all English, math, science, history, etc. as a typical student would would have if he or she had completed all 12 grades in the US (without having taken AP classes, theoretically, although right now my son has learned far more than the equivalent of 12th graders in the US in several subjects).  Anyway, then at the end of that equivalent of 10th grade, students take huge, long tests in every single subject.  And we're not talking multiple choice tests or scantron tests, oh heck no. We're talking essay tests - big, long, HUGE essay tests that each go on for pages and pages and pages - multiple tests in every single academic subject.  The testing goes on for something like six weeks at the end of (the equivalent of) 10th grade.

When the dust clears and the test results are back, the students then face the next academic year (our equivalent of 11th grade).  What happens then is that the four academic subjects that they scored the best in (this is a rough idea of the way it works - I'm trying to simplify a bit) are the four subjects they then take in 11th grade.  The subjects are taught at the college level... very in depth.  So, basically, students who are not strong in math will wave goodbye to math after our equivalent of 10th grade.  Those students who are incredibly strong in math will continue on into our equivalent of 11th grade.  There is more subject weeding out at the end of 11th grade; only a student's THREE strongest subjects are then taught to them in our equivalent of 12th grade.  Thus, if you compare British 11th graders and American 11th graders, well, almost all Americans are still taking math of some type in 11th grade, whereas at that same time a large amount of British students have funneled out of math, and only those who are quite strong in math are still taking it.  I hope this makes sense. This is why you absolutely cannot compare math capabilities of British students with those of American students in the later grades with any kind of fairness.

On one hand, the British educational system is FAR superior to the American system.  My son's education blows my mind.  I am very math-y and science-y, and I envy him the ability to learn with this curriculum.  The American high school educational system is just... broken...especially in math and science, I think.  That said, one aspect of the British system is... rather sobering.  That is the idea that, once you leave a subject behind, it is my understanding that this very much impacts your choices from then on out.  In America, we pretty much teach everyone everything until, what? The end of your freshman or sophomore years in college, roughly? And only then are you expected to begin really focusing on what you want to pursue? In Britain, if you want to pursue math or science (or any subject, actually), you had best do well in them on your 10th grade tests or you will be leaving them behind, maybe forever.  It narrows your choices later on, and at such a young age. 

For example, if you want to be a doctor, you must score well on your math and science tests so you can continue on in math and science at the end of your 10th grade year.  Then you have to do so again the end of your 11th grade year.  Then, in your 12th grade year, you apply to medical school, which literally starts at the beginning of your first year of college (the same year in the US that would be your freshman year). So different! And the path began narrowing when the student was just 16 years old.  So that is what I consider to be a possible downside to the British high school educational system.  I like how the American system really keeps your options open for far longer. 

 
Ad Orientem, that's hilarious. I can't even tell you what a horrible job I would do! Believe it or not, I suck at things like sightseeing or what hotel to stay in or what restaurant to eat at, lol.  But thank you and TennPaGa for the very kind words. 

[lordmetroid]

In Sweden the path narrows at age 16 as well. However instead of a big test determining what you are good at and deciding for you what subjects will be dropped, the student must choose for himself and apply to the programs he is interested in. Of course if there isn't sufficient available seats available then their grades will determine who gets the offer of a seat first.

However, you are never locked into one path or another. Our education system recognize that people can have a change of mind and allows the student to reapply for different programs or  optionally complement their studies with the courses that are necessary for choosing a different path at university level.

[WiseOne]

Thanks Mom2!!  That was my understanding of the British system also...one of my collaborators is in the UK and attended Oxford with David Cameron, so I've heard lots of stories.

Its nice to preserve an escape hatch, but for many kids narrowing choices at age 16 makes a lot of sense.  Sometimes I think the purpose of our educational system is to generate lots of money for the educational lending business.  Meanwhile, math and science majors apparently need to be imported.  Just a weird, weird state of affairs.

[Pointedstick]

Thanks Mom2!!  That was my understanding of the British system also...one of my collaborators is in the UK and attended Oxford with David Cameron, so I've heard lots of stories.

Its nice to preserve an escape hatch, but for many kids narrowing choices at age 16 makes a lot of sense.  Sometimes I think the purpose of our educational system is to generate lots of money for the educational lending business.  Meanwhile, math and science majors apparently need to be imported.  Just a weird, weird state of affairs.

I don't think it's actually so weird. Most U.S. state institutions have been twisted into thinly-veiled subsidies or bailouts of private industries that would be largely unable to exist in their current form in a more competitive market. Defense, agribusiness, textbooks, student loans, pharmaceuticals, insurance, you name it.

[MachineGhost]

Well, we may have to import math and science engineers, but all the great concepts and ideas still originate in America (to be manufactured in China), so I don't think pigeonholing kids at 18, nevermind 16, makes any sense at all.  Who the hell knew exactly who they were and what they wanted in life at those ages?  And think of the ongoing terror of having to decide your own Brave New Worldish fate.  That makes for good conformists, not freethinkers.

Not to be snarky, but what exactly have the British accomplished since the Suez Canal crisis?  They're simply not relevant at anything anymore except as a tier player to the USA and except for London being the center of Forex or emerging market hucksters.  Likewise for the rest of Europe or China.  America has dynanism going for it even if it comes with some pretty unfortunate social costs.

Don't confuse me with a patriot.  I actually dislike American suburban-sprawl-shopping monoculture from coast to coast.  I think it is intellectually stiltyfing and to see the model replicated worldwide is a great source of eyerolling.

[WiseOne]

Not to be snarky, but what exactly have the British accomplished since the Suez Canal crisis?

Royal weddings and princes of course!  Stephen Hawking comes to mind also.

Do you know any outstanding engineer or scientist who wasn't obviously proficient in math and science at age 16?  Anyway, if a late bloomer did materialize, they could still join the party when able.  The point is that future auto mechanics and Macy's retail clerks really don't need to be continuing along the college prep pathway past age 16.

[Ad Orientem]

Not to be snarky, but what exactly have the British accomplished since the Suez Canal crisis?

Royal weddings and princes of course!  Stephen Hawking comes to mind also.

Do you know any outstanding engineer or scientist who wasn't obviously proficient in math and science at age 16?  Anyway, if a late bloomer did materialize, they could still join the party when able.  The point is that future auto mechanics and Macy's retail clerks really don't need to be continuing along the college prep pathway past age 16.

And they still hold two small remnants of the Empire, Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands (which they had to fight for in '82).

[MachineGhost]

I am encouraged by this article:

Cat and dog lovers are a relatively new breed in China. Up until the 1980s, keeping pet dogs was illegal in Beijing, because pets were considered to be a bourgeois affectation. Restrictions were loosened in the 1990s and early 2000s. (A height limit on dogs is still in place.) By 2012 the city had more than 1 million registered pet dogs, now served by more than 300 pet hospitals, according to the Beijing Small Animal Veterinary Association. China has become the third-largest pet market in the world, after the U.S. and Brazil, according to Euromonitor International, and is home to 27 million dogs and 11 million cats.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... population

[Libertarian666]

I am encouraged by this article:

Cat and dog lovers are a relatively new breed in China. Up until the 1980s, keeping pet dogs was illegal in Beijing, because pets were considered to be a bourgeois affectation. Restrictions were loosened in the 1990s and early 2000s. (A height limit on dogs is still in place.) By 2012 the city had more than 1 million registered pet dogs, now served by more than 300 pet hospitals, according to the Beijing Small Animal Veterinary Association. China has become the third-largest pet market in the world, after the U.S. and Brazil, according to Euromonitor International, and is home to 27 million dogs and 11 million cats.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... population

So you're thinking that the immense waste of resources implied by millions of pets in China will keep them from overtaking us in world dominance?

[Mountaineer]

I am encouraged by this article:

Cat and dog lovers are a relatively new breed in China. Up until the 1980s, keeping pet dogs was illegal in Beijing, because pets were considered to be a bourgeois affectation. Restrictions were loosened in the 1990s and early 2000s. (A height limit on dogs is still in place.) By 2012 the city had more than 1 million registered pet dogs, now served by more than 300 pet hospitals, according to the Beijing Small Animal Veterinary Association. China has become the third-largest pet market in the world, after the U.S. and Brazil, according to Euromonitor International, and is home to 27 million dogs and 11 million cats.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... population

So you're thinking that the immense waste of resources implied by millions of pets in China will keep them from overtaking us in world dominance?

Perhaps culinary dominance?  Stir fried dog, anyone? 

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

This stuff is really starting to snowball.  It'll be interesting to see how "Communist" Vietnam responds to "public pressure".

Animals Asia's campaign asking the Vietnamese Prime Minister to step in and save 23 bears from the Cau Trang Bear Farm in Halong Bay has received phenomenal international support.

Moon bear hero Lesley Nicol has added her name to the campaign. Thank you Lesley and the 83,000 who have signed and shared, including celebrities such as Stephen Fry, Dame Judi Dench, Ricky Gervais, Brian May, Olivia Newton-John, Ali MacGraw and Peter Egan. The response has been incredible and is beginning to be felt.

http://halong.animalsasia.org/savehalongbears/

[dualstow]

OLD THREAD

I reviewed this thread after returning to China for two weeks this month. Still interesting.

[Maddy]

This was the first time I had read this thread, and what a wonderful post! Thank you!

[Kriegsspiel]

Why America Can’t Rebuild Without China

[dualstow]

Why America Can’t Rebuild Without China

Interesting piece.

[Kriegsspiel]

It's kinda funny that so much of our debt/deficit spending on welfare programs is funded by Chinese people working in factories and living in cramped hovels. You'd think Trump and those on unemployment would be more chill with offshoring jobs there.

[boglerdude]

I coulda sworn I saw the video where Trump says he would run as a republican because they'll believe anything.

Now I'm getting gaslighted lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/politicalfactc ... _did_this/

In any event, we can never know what politicians actually believe

[Kriegsspiel]

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017 ... rspective/

I had always thought that things happen for reasons. My parents taught me that good people get rewarded while evil gets punished. My teachers at school taught me that if you work hard, you will succeed, and if you never try, you will surely fail. When I picked up the book, I was studying math at Cambridge University and, as I looked back at the standardized tests and intense study that had defined my life until then, I could see no uncertainty.

But since reading Rubin’s book, I have come to see the world differently. Robert Rubin never intended to become the senior partner of Goldman Sachs: a few years into his career, he even handed in his resignation. Just as in Rubin’s career, I find that maybe randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor. And those reasons we assign to historical events are often just ex post rationalizations. As rising generations are taught the rationalizations, they conclude that things always happen for a reason.

I studied economics at Cambridge, a field which has become more and more mathematical since the 1970s. The goal is always to use a mathematical model to find a closed-form solution to a real-world problem. Looking back, I’m not sure why my professors were so focused on these models. I have since found that the mistake of blindly relying on models is quite widespread in both trading and investing—often with disastrous results, such as the infamous collapse of the hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management. Years later, I discovered the teaching of Warren Buffett: it is better to be approximately right than precisely wrong. But our professors taught us to think of the real world as a math problem.

I began working as a trader at Goldman in 2007. Goldman’s unofficial motto is “be long-term greedy.” I found that my Goldman colleagues were very smart and competitive. However, I actually didn’t see much of the “long-term” part of the “long-term greedy” culture. Goldman Sachs, even with its reputation as the top investment bank, has been involved in scandals in mortgage products, trades with the Greek government, its links with Malaysia’s corrupt 1MDB, and so on. Maybe this is due to the fact that Goldman is now a public company with a quarterly earnings call. Maybe it is because the position of the trading desk where I worked was marked to market in real time. When you see the number change in front of you from second to second—and especially when that number is not going in the right direction—even one day can feel like eternity. That tells you how long-term oriented traders are in general.

One class was about strategy. It focused on how corporate mottos and logos could inspire employees. Many of the students had worked for nonprofits or health care or tech companies, all of which had mottos about changing the world, saving lives, saving the planet, etc. The professor seemed to like these mottos. I told him that at Goldman our motto was “be long-term greedy.” The professor couldn’t understand this motto or why it was inspiring. I explained to him that everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring. He asked if perhaps there was another motto or logo that my other classmates might connect with. I told him about the black swan I kept on my desk as a reminder that low probability events happen with high frequency. He didn’t like that motto either and decided to call on another student, who had worked at Pfizer. Their motto was “all people deserve to live healthy lives.” The professor thought this was much better. I didn’t understand how it would motivate employees, but this was exactly why I had come to Stanford: to learn the key lessons of interpersonal communication and leadership.

My favorite class was called “Interpersonal Dynamics” or, as students referred to it, “Touchy Feely.” In “Touchy Feely,” students get very candid feedback on how their words and actions affect others in a small group that meets several hours per week for a whole quarter.

We talked about microaggressions and feelings and empathy and listening. Sometimes in class the professor would say things to me like “Puzhong, when Mary said that, I could see you were really feeling something,” or “Puzhong, I could see in your eyes that Peter’s story affected you.” And I would tell them I didn’t feel anything. I was quite confused.

One of the papers we studied mentioned that subjects are often not conscious of their own feelings when fully immersed in a situation. But body indicators such as heart rate would show whether the person is experiencing strong emotions. I thought that I generally didn’t have a lot of emotions and decided that this might be a good way for me to discover my hidden emotions that the professor kept asking about.

So I bought a heart rate monitor and checked my resting heart rate. Right around 78. And when the professor said to me in class “Puzhong, I can see that story brought up some emotions in you,” I rolled up my sleeve and checked my heart rate. It was about 77. And so I said, “nope, no emotion.” The experiment seemed to confirm my prior belief: my heart rate hardly moved, even when I was criticized, though it did jump when I became excited or laughed.

This didn’t land well on some of my classmates. They felt I was not treating these matters with the seriousness that they deserved. The professor was very angry. My takeaway was that my interpersonal skills were so bad that I could easily offend people unintentionally, so I concluded that after graduation I should do something that involved as little human interaction as possible.

[dualstow]

I coulda sworn I saw the video where Trump says he would run as a republican because they'll believe anything.

Now I'm getting gaslighted lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/politicalfactc ... _did_this/

In any event, we can never know what politicians actually believe

I know some people here don’t like Snopes, but-
https://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/

[boglerdude]

Nope, I saw the vid. It was the kind of thing he'd say so I wasnt shocked enough to download the video.

https://www.reddit.com/r/politicalfactc ... _did_this/