Fats and Health

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MachineGhost
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

MangoMan wrote: There is so much conflicting information on this topic, both here and elsewhere, it is very difficult to decide what to believe.
You have to follow the money trail so you can see who is funding the propaganda mouthpieces.  A poignant example would be Coke, Pepsi, GM, Kraft, etc. funding the American Dietectic Association (oh I'm sorry these jokers now think they're nutrition experts so they've renamed themselves to the "Academy of Nutrition and Dietectics" and are actively trying to pass nutritionist licensing laws favorable only themselves).  There is no objectivity in America -- everyone is a crony capitalist to one degree or another.  Even me, although I have no financial interests in Big Farma, Big Pharma, junk food, dietary supplements or the sickcare system so I'm very relatively objective.  And I care about my health as a #1 priority, not making a profit for myself, my family, my company, my cronies, my alumni network, my community or suppporting all the fragile, tenuous egos involved in public policy bureaucracy (I'm sure WiseOne can relate to that one!).

I've never said that saturated fats are pro-healthy.  My anecdotal experience indicates otherwise.  But not being heathly is not the same thing as being unhealthy or dangerous.  The body is far more complex and context dependent than a simple universal "eat x and get y disease" shtick.  The dietary saturated fat/cholesterol lipid hypothesis has no evidence that stands up to objective scrutiny**.  Study the history of Ancel Keys and all the pieces will fall into place.

** Propaganda mouthpieces, undergraduates, journalists, publish or perish non-tenured academics doing meta-analysis of previously flawed studies and conflict-of-interest studies all declaring that "x causes y disease" are simply not credible.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of published "scientific evidence" is now of this type.  The real problem is a dearth of critical thinking skills, lazyness and a lack of time.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by dragoncar »

Why does everyone mention that canola is made from rapeseed? The name of the plant is never used in packaging, so it's not really germane to the discussion.  I can only conclude that it's included as FUD. 
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Mark Leavy »

dragoncar wrote: Why does everyone mention that canola is made from rapeseed? The name of the plant is never used in packaging, so it's not really germane to the discussion.  I can only conclude that it's included as FUD.
I use it to show that it is not a new oil, but it has a long history in industrial uses.  The canola oil brand was created to distance the oil from it's historical use as a commonly known industrial lubricant.  If you want to read about the development of the oil for it's food use, it helps to do web searches using the name it has had for most of history.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

dragoncar wrote: Why does everyone mention that canola is made from rapeseed? The name of the plant is never used in packaging, so it's not really germane to the discussion.  I can only conclude that it's included as FUD.
It's because mustard gas is derived from the erucic acid in rapeseed oil.  So there was a marketing fiction problem when trying to cash in on the vegetable oil fad.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Pet Hog »

MachineGhost wrote: It's because mustard gas is derived from the erucic acid in rapeseed oil.
As an organic chemist, I must object!  The chemical structure of erucic acid (a long-chain fatty acid) is completely unrelated to that of mustard gas (a short sulfur-containing molecule).  There is no way anyone would synthesize it that way.  The only connection I can think of might be if the oil was used in the formulation of mustard gas, but that doesn't appear to be the case either.  I suspect the misunderstanding has come about because erucic acid is a component of mustard oil, which is completely unrelated to mustard gas (so named because its odor is similar to that of mustard).

By the way, canola oil contains at most 2% erucic acid (5% in the EU), whereas rapeseed oil can contain up to 54% of the stuff, so the two oils are not exactly the same thing.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

Pet Hog wrote: As an organic chemist, I must object!  The chemical structure of erucic acid (a long-chain fatty acid) is completely unrelated to that of mustard gas (a short sulfur-containing molecule).  There is no way anyone would synthesize it that way.  The only connection I can think of might be if the oil was used in the formulation of mustard gas, but that doesn't appear to be the case either.  I suspect the misunderstanding has come about because erucic acid is a component of mustard oil, which is completely unrelated to mustard gas (so named because its odor is similar to that of mustard).
Right you are, sir!
http://www.cansa.org.za/debunking-canola-myths/ wrote:]Mustard gas is not made from rape seed oil, but by treating a chemical called ethylene with sulphur chloride or dihydroxyethyl with hydrochloric gas. In other words, mustard gas is produced synthetically and is not derived from rape oil at all;
It seems that the mustard gas connection was an Internet urban legend back in the day: http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/canola.asp

Amusing that I still have crap like that floating around in my brain.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by dragoncar »

MangoMan wrote: MG, in the article you just quoted, it states:
  • Canola oil contains linolenic acid, which increases one of the essential omega-3 fatty acids called EPA in human tissues and actually reduces the stickiness of red blood corpuscles and therefore reduces blood clotting tendencies.
and
  • Canola oil contains high levels of omega-3 fatty acids as mentioned above and omega-3 fatty acids help to stimulate the immune system, not put it to sleep.
The article goes on to basically state that canola oil is not toxic and is even good for you. The fact that is was once an industrial oil is really irrelevant. So what's your beef with it?
To be fair, MG didn't mention industrial oil, that was Mark Leavy.  I guess I'm not old or industrial enough for "it's really rapeseed oil!" to make me think of industrial lubricants, beyond the scary sounding word "rape."
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

1. "Canola oil is low in saturated fat and contains both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids in a ratio of 2:1"

This is from wikipedia, and I think they meant all of the above as selling points (which is sad)

2.  Conversion of omega 3 precursors to e.g. EPA is limited by many things (including age).  This is why flax is not a good substitute for "fish oil" and there are studies to demonstrate this.

3.  Omega 3 precursors only convert to EPA, not DHA.

EDIT:  I should add the olive oil has omega 6 fatty acids also, but it has (if you actually get the good stuff) benefits as well.
Last edited by Benko on Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

Pug,

Examine.com makes some very good points on this:

http://examine.com/blog/fish-oil-and-your-prostate/

The whole page is worth reading, but here is the bottom line:

What Should I Know?


Stating "fish oil causes cancer" due to this study would be a mistake, as it is a case-cohort study (conducted at one time point only), and a temporal relationship is not made. While unlikely, with the data available, it could also be possible to state "prostate cancer causes a higher n3 concentration in the blood."

The temporal aspect is important, since fish oil supplementation can drastically change serum levels of omega-3s in the blood. It is quite common for people diagnosed with prostate cancer to supplement with fish oil, as it is commonly touted to be cancer-protective (which would mean that prostate cancer precedes fish oil supplementation). A previous study using persons from SELECT using a design that could assess this temporal relationship found no relation (either protective or harmful) with prostate cancer incidence.

Furthermore, this study did not measure mortality. When looking at mortality, fish oil seems to be associated with reduced mortality. In simpler words, it was found to not help prevent prostate cancer, but reduced your chances of dying from it.

Also of interest is the large ranges observed (as in, the 71% value had an actual range of somewhere between 0% and 192% with a 5% margin of error), which either suggests other factors are at play influencing the results or large differences in how one’s body responds to omega-3 ingestion.

At the most, we can state that prostate cancer is associated with higher omega-3 ratios in your blood. This study poses a chicken-egg problem - which causes which?


This study and no other studies in existence can causatively state that fish oil causes prostate cancer. If anything, this study begets a plethora of questions in regards to the relationship between prostate cancer and omega-3 but proves nothing.
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BMJ: cardiologist admits low sat fat diet will not prevent heard disease

Post by Benko »

From Chris Kresser's weekly roundup of useful info:

Cardiologist in the British medical Journal:

But Dr. DiNicolantonio says there is insufficient evidence to suggest that reducing saturated fat intake helps to reduce the risk of heart disease, and consuming refined carbohydrate or polyunsaturated fat, such as omega-6, may even increase the risk of heart disease and other conditions.

So cutting sat fat and adding canola may give you heart disease.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

MangoMan wrote: The article goes on to basically state that canola oil is not toxic and is even good for you. The fact that is was once an industrial oil is really irrelevant. So what's your beef with it?
I didn't post those links for truth in accuracy but to address the mustard gas myth.  So it's marketing fiction from vested interests.  ALA is barely converted to EPA or DHA in the body if theres no LA obstruction and is not considered a credible dietary source of either EFA anyway.  Furthermore, the whole point of refining is to get rid of the LA/ALA because it is what oxidizes the oil and makes it shelf unstable.  Whatever LA/ALA remains in refined oil is sort of a frankenstein trans-fat produced by refining as opposed to hydrogenation.

Compared to unrefined olive oil with its array of polyphenols and aspirin-like olive water, refined canola has nothing healthy to offer.  It is a shelf-stable, refined, junk food product created just to cash in on the vegetable oil craze that has been going on since toxic trans-fat Crisco came out over 100 years ago. 

Besides, the main problem with canola oil is it contains too much toxic Omega-6 and is about 22% by weight.  Natural state EVOO, tropical oils and animal fats are all 12% or less.  All Omega-6 oxidizes during digestion (assuming its not pre-oxidized to begin with) and it is harmful past 4% max of calories.  Anyone concerned about their health reduces Omega-6 intake as if it is the plaque.  Like all vegetable oils, canola is a hybridized frankenfood and is not a natural-state food that we evolved to eat.

Also, I may have tried unrefined canola oil at one time and still had a negative inflammatory reaction to it just as I do to refined canola
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

MangoMan wrote: Benko/MG:
What is your opinion of the studies that now link fish oil supplements to substantial increase in incidence of prostate cancer?
I think that was one of the typical, flawed, biased studies with a poor methodology that the mainstream media loves to parrot without any real investigative journalism.  The study was not about dietary fish oil supplements and the one-time serum levels were still 60% below the marker for optimal health.  There were also many confounding factors.  Junk science.  Sadly, this is the norm nowadays as making a public health career depends on making a splash and what better way than to kowtow to Ceasar?  Critical thinking and facts be damned!

So if not outright crony corruptism, then it is just outright naivety and ignorance.  People in the public health field have very little experience with optimal nutrition and optimal dosing of nutrients.  How can they?  We're talking largely about undergraduate and postgraduates here.  They're still young adults that barely know diddley squat about anything.  Theory is not practice.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

Somewhat off the topic, but since we're touting the benefits of olive oil, people should know that claims that olive oil is actually extra virgin are only true about half the time (perhaps 40 or 60% I don't remember exactly) as there is big time fraud in the olive oil industry.  There are some articles around reviewing different brands, but basically there is no easy way unless you have a store in town that buys from known suppliers and charges correspondingly. 
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Re: Fats and Health

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Mark will like this one:

The effects of a ketogenic diet on exercise metabolism and physical performance in off-road cyclists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4113752/

Also interesting:

Overfeeding polyunsaturated and saturated fat causes distinct effects on liver and visceral fat accumulation in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24550191

Dietary modulation of body composition and insulin sensitivity during catch-up growth in rats: effects of oils rich in n-6 or n-3 PUFA
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... 4510005659

Off topic, but also interesting:

Fruit and vegetable consumption and mortality from all causes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer: systematic review and dose-response meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies.
http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4490.long

A serving is 80 grams.  So no point going past a pound a day. Whew1
Last edited by MachineGhost on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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Just tried coconut milk tonight...

Anyone else get indigestion from it?  I haven't been able to find anything on Google about it, but I thought I'd ask.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

Moda,

No, but if you have problems with it, start with small doses and work up.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

MangoMan wrote: MG,
It appears that the conclusions of the 2nd and 3rd study you sighted are:

1. Less Sat fat and more PUFA = good
The study took normal weight people and gave them excess calories for 7 weeks and looked at where the fat was distributed. 

A. I'm not clear this study has any implications for people are not gaining weight/overweight.

B.  "Conversely, PUFAs caused a nearly threefold larger increase in lean tissue than SFAs."
There were (probably still are) companies selling omega 6/arachadonic acid prescursors because they said there was data showing that they were helpful to lifters/bodybuilders trying to gain muscle.    This says nothing about whether they are healthpromoting or unhealthy to the organism. 

C.  The study says nothing about what happens from consuming sat fat vs pufa long term. 
-------------------------------------------

The third study mentioned has endpoints of insulin sensitivity and body composition in a particular situation over presumably a relatively short period of time.  Assuming that omega 3/6 ratio has no effect on these endpoints, it says nothing about whether these factors do or do not influence other health parameters over longer periods of time.  But there is tons of data on that.
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Re: Fats and Health

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moda0306 wrote: Anyone else get indigestion from it?  I haven't been able to find anything on Google about it, but I thought I'd ask.
You might be reacting to the gums used to thicken it which interact with the gut micriobiota or you may simply not be producing enough lipase to digest such a relatively large amount of fat yet.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: 1. Less Sat fat and more PUFA = good
2. Omega 3/6 ratio not that relevant

Both of which are contrary to all of the talk here of eating Paleo/Ghee/Red Meat
[and support the position of CSPI which you claim to be junk science. Btw, where does the money to support CSPI come from? You made a reference to that somewhere else but never elaborated... ]
Yep, but those studies have little to do with cardiovascular disease, which is CSPI's antiquated position ala the dietary saturated fat/cholesterol lipid hypothesis.  Here's an interesting site: http://www.cspiscam.com/background.cfm

I want to reiterate that I've never advocated saturated fats are outright pro-healthy as I haven't seen strong evidence for that, but they're less harmful than trans-fats and Omega-6 vegetable oils which simply aren't a natural part of the diet that we evolved upon.  Some of the key studies that anti-dietary saturated fat proponents rely on are ones that actually conflated trans-fats with saturated fats.  And sometimes even conflation with Omega-6 like the original Ancel Keys study that "proved" dietary saturated fat caused cholesterol deposits.  It's all terribly sloppy.

Did I post this before?
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/cholesterol-and-disease.html wrote:In the articles located on the left, I argue that it is not lipids such as fats and cholesterol in and of themselves that cause these diseases, but the degeneration these lipids, especially the oxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids found in the vegetable oils that we have been told for decades are healthier for us than animal fats.
EDIT: I didn't know the head of CSPI was a vegetarian extremist!  Like the extremists at the ill-named Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, both organization are pushing an ideological agenda on the American Public, not science.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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MachineGhost wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Anyone else get indigestion from it?  I haven't been able to find anything on Google about it, but I thought I'd ask.
You might be reacting to the gums used to thicken it which interact with the gut micriobiota or you may simply not be producing enough lipase to digest such a relatively large amount of fat yet.
How do I manage either of those variables?

Also, I can't imagine it's the latter. I Had a ribeye steak as big as my head on Saturday and it went down just fine :).
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Re: Fats and Health

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moda0306 wrote: How do I manage either of those variables?

Also, I can't imagine it's the latter. I Had a ribeye steak as big as my head on Saturday and it went down just fine :).
Read ingredient labels.  Its hard to find coconut milk without gum thickeners, but carrageenan is the worst as it is an intestinal toxin/carcinogen.  Guar gum may be a nasty too.  The rest of the gums seem to be benign.  Some brands also add sulfites.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by moda0306 »

MachineGhost wrote:
moda0306 wrote: How do I manage either of those variables?

Also, I can't imagine it's the latter. I Had a ribeye steak as big as my head on Saturday and it went down just fine :).
Read ingredient labels.  Its hard to find coconut milk without gum thickeners, but carrageenan is the worst as it is an intestinal toxin/carcinogen.  Guar gum may be a nasty too.  The rest of the gums seem to be benign.  Some brands also add sulfites.
So are you even a fan of Coconut milk with that garbage in it?
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

Moda,

If you google e.g. Kresser on carrageenan  you'll find it is far from clear that carrageenan is as bad as MG presents.  If you have gut problems as MG does carrageenan may be worth avoiding, or certainly avoiding on a daily basis.  I have mild gut problems and used to take large amounts of guar gum daily and didn't notice any problems.  Kressers answer is to make your own but I think there are some brands without (you may have to mail order though).
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Re: Fats and Health

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High saturated fat and low carbohydrate diet decreases lifespan independent of body weight in mice
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922950/

This might be that study where the lard used had a high Omega-6 composition.  I remember reading about that somewhere.  I do not know if 15% energy from carbs is unhealthy for rats, either.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

Libertarian666 wrote: IIRC, at least one of those articles said that the only "extra virgin" that was labeled correctly 100% of the time was the Kirkland (Costco) brand.
That's correct but that was several years ago and is no longer true.  There's an association in CA that does annual testing of EVOO's.  Basically, stick to small business local or "Made in USA" and avoid the commercially imported oils unless you are directly buying from a small grower in Greece (where the best olives are grown).  Bariani is always a safe standby although the taste is rather grassy since they don't age it in the bottle.  Trader Joe's California Estate and Napa Valley Naturals are others that pass muster.

Here's the recent study denouncing the mainstream "reduce saturated fat" hypothesis:

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articlei ... ufferf0af7

It's entertaining to read the Published Letters in response.  The one from the Harvard nutritional professor is especially ironical as I believe Harvard also came to the same conclusion as the study!  Not sure what is going on.  Probably turf wars.

BTW, Ancel Keys died at 100 and remained intellectually active throughout his 97th year.  He ate a Mediterranean Diet presumably with 35% of caloreis from fat.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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