Fats and Health

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Benko
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

MangoMan wrote:
Benko wrote:
replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturates  is way out of favor with anyone who's opinion I respect.  Why?  Firstly getting more omega 6s is not something most people need more of.  2nd polyunsaturates are easily oxidized.
I don't disagree with either statement. However, do you dispute that increasing saturated fat in your diet causes a rise in unhealthy LDLs?
I don't know the literature on that point.  Assuming it is true, what is the bottom line i.e. what do you do with the data?  MInimize all fat consumption?

THIS IS ANECDOTAL but:
--I knew someone who increased his daily egg consumption from 2 per day to over 12 per day and his total cholesterol dropped. 
--I know a number of people who've added coconut oil to their diet and their HDL went up.

Maybe this is all supurious. Maybe.  Or maybe there are differen populations of people who thrive on different diets.
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Re: Fats and Health

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pp4me3 wrote: I think I read somewhere that even the doctor who first proposed the Lipid Hypothesis didn't say that eating saturated fat was the cause of heart disease. He just said high blood cholesterol was linked to heart disease without making any assumptions about what causes high blood cholesterol.

Actually, I think I read that he was skeptical about attributing it to dietary fat (skeptical? he should be shot).
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: I, personally had the opposite experience. I switched from canola oil to coconut oil for cooking [supposed benefits from MCT, maybe reverse the alzheimer's my GF claims I suffer from, too, lol] and saw my LDL elevate to borderline problematic.
We're above my head now.  Check out the website/forum by the cardiologist William Davis.  I don't think you're the only one who had that problem, but neither do I think it the most common result.  Davis advocates a number of blood tests and I do believe there was one group who should avoid sat fats, but i don't remember the details.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

Here: check out the forum here:

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/

May need to be a member.
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: Removing that one trial from the meta-analysis reverses the results and shows that people who replaced saturated fat with polyunsaturated fats had a lower risk of heart disease.[/i]
Same conflationary logic applies.  it is the Omega-3 not the Omega-6.
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Re: Fats and Health

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Mark Leavy wrote: "Plaque" is the accumulation of calcium in the arteries.  Nothing at all to do with saturated fat.  Very very much to do with vitamin K2.
The first part is rather out of date and incorrect.  Get up to speed:

http://www.sabiosciences.com/pathway.ph ... erogenesis

Fair warning: you sound like one of those delusional, religious Paleo nutcases who ignore contrary facts and reality.  Just like a vegan.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: I, personally had the opposite experience. I switched from canola oil to coconut oil for cooking [supposed benefits from MCT, maybe reverse the alzheimer's my GF claims I suffer from, too, lol] and saw my LDL elevate to borderline problematic.
You can just use MCT oil and skip all the coconut fat.
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Re: Fats and Health

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Benko wrote: The co-founder of Greenpeace no longer believes in the Global warming propaganda.
Ad hominem attacks are of no use against the collective science behind global warming.  The only religion is in the denial against it.  Like proving a negative, you can't attack faith with facts because it is inherently delusional.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Mark Leavy »

MachineGhost wrote:
Mark Leavy wrote: "Plaque" is the accumulation of calcium in the arteries.  Nothing at all to do with saturated fat.  Very very much to do with vitamin K2.
The first part is rather out of date and incorrect.  Get up to speed:

http://www.sabiosciences.com/pathway.ph ... erogenesis
Thank you for the pointer MG.  That was a good article.  It will take me a few days to digest it.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Xan »

Mark Leavy wrote:Thank you for the pointer MG.  That was a good article.  It will take me a few days to digest it.
You don't want to digest it too quickly and get an insulin spike.
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: Could you recommend something specific? Thanks.
Sure thing!  https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson ... -ml-liquid

If you have any kind of subclinical fungus or yeast infection, ketones will feed it as they metabolize ketones directly for energy.  So any adverse reactions to MCT Oil may be indicative of that.  I'm one of those people that get killer MSG-like headaches from coconut oil.  MCT Oil would probably kill me or make me kill myself.
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Re: Fats and Health

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Wikipedia claims that coconut oil is a good source of MCTs. Is that wrong? Personally, coconut oil doesn't seem to have any negative effect on me. I grease my cast iron skillets with it every day. If I don't feel any adverse health effects from it, what's better about this MCT oil?
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by l82start »

i have tried both coconut oil and MTC, and enjoyed the results from both, coconut oil in its semi solid state is pretty darn tasty, but results in lots of weird looks from family and friends if you are seen eating a spoonful straight from the jar  :-[

the brand of MTC i tried is https://www.bulletproofexec.com/bulletp ... d-mct-oil/
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: Coconut oil is indeed a rich source of MCTs. But it is also a virtually 100% saturated fat. For those of us that still believe saturated fats are unhealthy, tropical oils should probably be avoided.
That's the rub, I guess. What's the status of this? I remember reading some pretty convincing stuff back when Gumby was around that made me rethink my terror of saturated fats. Is that still considered true, or is the bleeding edge of nutrition back to the mainstream position on saturated fats?
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Re: Fats and Health

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MangoMan wrote: Coconut oil is indeed a rich source of MCTs. But it is also a virtually 100% saturated fat. For those of us that still believe saturated fats are unhealthy, tropical oils should probably be avoided.

MG, the oil in your link is made from coconut and palm kernel oil, and is 100% saturated fat. Can you recommend one without the saturated fat? otherwise, one might as well just stick with organic coconut oil.
No, that's an oxymoron as the MCT components in coconut/palm oil are all saturated.  There are many subtypes of saturated fats.  If you still buy the cholesterol lipid-saturated fat hypothesis malarky**, then the saturated fat subtypes that raise LDL levels are largely myristic, secondarily palmetic which are in animal fats and tropical oils.  The antibacterial component of coconut oil is in the 47% by weight lauric acid and is sold as a saturated-fat free extract called monolaurin: http://www.vitacost.com/health-from-the ... capsules-1
I believe lauric acid/monolaurin is one of the reasons why South Pacific Islanderss who eat a ton of coconut fat are so healthy along with the capric acid.

** Breast milk has 20% more saturated fat than lard.

BTW, despite the lofty name, the CSPI has no credibility.  Follow the money and you'll see who funds them.  They're the ones directly responsible for coercing tropical oils removed from all fast food back when it was actually tasty only to be replaced with tasteless and toxic trans-fat vegetable oils back in 1989-1990 only to reverse their position again to get trans-fats banned a few years ago.  They're also vehemetly anti-nutrition and anti-supplement.  They're nothing but a joke.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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Pointedstick wrote: That's the rub, I guess. What's the status of this? I remember reading some pretty convincing stuff back when Gumby was around that made me rethink my terror of saturated fats. Is that still considered true, or is the bleeding edge of nutrition back to the mainstream position on saturated fats?
The mainstream position is still that it is bad for you, but the latest scientific evidence has shot it down.  From Harvard Medical School, no less.  So the tune at the top is slowly catching up with reality.  Like the Soviet Union, it takes a very long time for the truth to set people free.  Most of the subterfuge has had to do with Big Pharma, public policy career agendas and horribly flawed studies and evil organizations like the CSPI.  I posted this in another forum awhile back:
Here are five short term, one long term, randomized human trials replacing animal fats with Omega-6 vegetable oils:

Doubled number of major cardiac events:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2166702/
No effect:
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100 ... 95642-3_15
Increased mortality by 39%:
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100 ... -0967-3_18
"No effect" but results reported halfway through!:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=337080
Small increase in mortality: http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/9/1/129.short
More atherosclerosis, marked increase in cancer risk*, total mortality slighty higher:
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/40/1S2/II-1.short
(Note that the butter group had 200% more heavy smokers and 60% more moderate smokers!  The Vitamin E was also deficient in the butter due to reuse after [re]cooking; the vegetable oil was specifically not reused:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14281370
)

Corn oil vs Coconut oil in rats:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0703002600

And out of sheer curiosity, here's the evil deed after the takeover of the AHA by Ancel Keys**, et al. that started the cholesterol lipid hypothesis ball rolling:
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/23/1/133.short

Of course theres many other negative health effects from Omega-6, but I'm limiting it to just CVD here.

Joe Sixpack

* Study at:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3671910865
** The sordid history of Ancel Keys is best told here:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/the-tr ... -it-wrong/
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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MachineGhost wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: That's the rub, I guess. What's the status of this? I remember reading some pretty convincing stuff back when Gumby was around that made me rethink my terror of saturated fats. Is that still considered true, or is the bleeding edge of nutrition back to the mainstream position on saturated fats?
The mainstream position is still that it is bad for you, but the latest scientific evidence has shot it down.  From Harvard Medical School, no less.  So the tune at the top is slowly catching up with reality.  Like the Soviet Union, it takes a very long time for the truth to set people free.  Most of the subterfuge has had to do with Big Pharma, public policy career agendas and horribly flawed studies and evil organizations like the CSPI.  I posted this in another forum awhile back:
Here are five short term, one long term, randomized human trials replacing animal fats with Omega-6 vegetable oils:

Doubled number of major cardiac events:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2166702/
No effect:
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100 ... 95642-3_15
Increased mortality by 39%:
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100 ... -0967-3_18
"No effect" but results reported halfway through!:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=337080
Small increase in mortality: http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/9/1/129.short
More atherosclerosis, marked increase in cancer risk*, total mortality slighty higher:
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/40/1S2/II-1.short
(Note that the butter group had 200% more heavy smokers and 60% more moderate smokers!  The Vitamin E was also deficient in the butter due to reuse after [re]cooking; the vegetable oil was specifically not reused:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14281370
)

Corn oil vs Coconut oil in rats:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0703002600

And out of sheer curiosity, here's the evil deed after the takeover of the AHA by Ancel Keys**, et al. that started the cholesterol lipid hypothesis ball rolling:
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/23/1/133.short

Of course theres many other negative health effects from Omega-6, but I'm limiting it to just CVD here.

Joe Sixpack

* Study at:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3671910865
** The sordid history of Ancel Keys is best told here:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/the-tr ... -it-wrong/
MG, you've done a ton of research on this.  I've heard that canola oil is maybe the best mainstream oil you're going to find, if you are picking the best of bad choices.  Agree/disagree?
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Re: Fats and Health

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dragoncar wrote: MG, you've done a ton of research on this.  I've heard that canola oil is maybe the best mainstream oil you're going to find, if you are picking the best of bad choices.  Agree/disagree?
Disagree.  It's refined to death at lofty pizza oven temperatures, has too much oxidized Omega-6 damaged by the refining, may contain toxic erucic acid.  Stick to unrefined, genuine olive oil.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Benko »

MachineGhost wrote:
dragoncar wrote: MG, you've done a ton of research on this.  I've heard that canola oil is maybe the best mainstream oil you're going to find, if you are picking the best of bad choices.  Agree/disagree?
Disagree.  It's refined to death at lofty pizza oven temperatures, has too much oxidized Omega-6 damaged by the refining, may contain toxic erucic acid.  Stick to unrefined, genuine olive oil.
Agree.  But that still leaves what to use for cooking:  I believe you can only use good olive oil at low temp and perhaps medium temps.  Plus there are some things that don't taste good with olive oil taste. 

I would suspect that butter might be good for many people.  I can't use butter (I have food allergy to dairy including butter) so I just use "regular" coconut oil (nutiva)  or the kind without the coconut taste (Jarrow makes some).    Other thoughts  MT?
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Re: Fats and Health

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Benko wrote: I would suspect that butter might be good for many people.  I can't use butter (I have food allergy to dairy including butter) so I just use "regular" coconut oil (nutiva)  or the kind without the coconut taste (Jarrow makes some).    Other thoughts  MT?
I use EVOO for all cooking and baking.  It has enough antioxidants to be okay against the heat.  So long as you don't reuse it, the antioxidant depletion is nothing to worry about.  Finding what is called light olive oil with no taste that is also 100% pure is a real problem nowadays, though.  I think [refined] coconut oil, red palm oil, grass-fed ghee, grass-fed butter, non-hydrogenated lard, animal fat, etc. are all good to use for cooking and baking if you can handle them.  I'm not one of them.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

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dragoncar wrote: MG, you've done a ton of research on this.  I've heard that canola oil is maybe the best mainstream oil you're going to find, if you are picking the best of bad choices.  Agree/disagree?
I'm not MG, but I'll pile on to his very sound answer.  Just for fun.

There is no such thing as a "canola" plant.  Canola oil is rapeseed oil.  But, clearly, no one will buy something called rapeseed oil and feed it to their children.  Some brilliant marketeer contracted the phrase "Canada Oil" into canola.  And thus a star was born.

Rapeseed oil has a long use in the US as an industrial lubricant.  Cheap, light machine oil.  You wouldn't use it for food as it [used to be] poisonous.  That was a serious loss of profitability - considering the large amount of cheap oil you can get from rapeseed.  Science to the rescue.  After decades of selective breeding and hybridization, rapeseed is no longer deemed to be poisonous.

Probably.  Maybe...

Pretty non biased wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by Mark Leavy »

sunnykmr152 wrote: Eating a lot of saturated fat can increase the cholesterol in your blood. High levels of cholesterol can increase your risk of heart disease, which includes heart attack and strokes.
Hi Sunny.  Welcome to the board.

The posters here are, by and large, extremely well read, disciplined, experienced and successful.

When someone on this board says something that doesn't agree with your worldview - you would do well to think, "hey... these very smart people have mentioned something that doesn't agree with my worldview.  I wonder if they know something I don't?"

Just a thought.  And again, welcome to the board, and happy investing.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by gizmo_rat »

MachineGhost wrote: I think [refined] coconut oil... are all good to use.
Typo or have I missed a twist in the debate ? I thought that that refining was doing nasty things to oils and fats to disguise rancidity, so to be avoided if possible.
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Re: Fats and Health

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gizmo_rat wrote: Typo or have I missed a twist in the debate ? I thought that that refining was doing nasty things to oils and fats to disguise rancidity, so to be avoided if possible.
Oh in the case of coconut oil, I'm talking about gentle refining to get rid of the coconut taste.  You have to be on the ball and inquire with the companies about their processing as many are just cashing in and using moldy coconuts just sitting around the warehouse and not caring a whit about their processing temperatures.  I can confirm Nutiva brand does it right for EVCO.  Tropical Traditions is also safe for refined EVCO/CO.

I think you're missing the point though that refining oil at pizza oven temperatures damages heat sensitive oils (Omega-3/Omega-6) which are not saturated.  So perhaps you can nuke saturated fats and not worry about it, but I you have to ask yourself: Is doing so natural?  Is doing so healthy?  Where in natuare does biology eat nuked saturated fats short of after a Bambi-style forest fire?

Image

I don't agree with a large majority of the cold uses, of course.  But the majority of people that look into this topic aren't hip to the dangers of excess Omega-6 per se, just the oxidization of it.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fats and Health

Post by MachineGhost »

MangoMan wrote: There is so much conflicting information on this topic, both here and elsewhere, it is very difficult to decide what to believe.
You have to follow the money trail so you can see who is funding the propaganda mouthpieces.  A poignant example would be Coke, Pepsi, GM, Kraft, etc. funding the American Dietectic Association (oh I'm sorry these jokers now think they're nutrition experts so they've renamed themselves to the "Academy of Nutrition and Dietectics" and are actively trying to pass nutritionist licensing laws favorable only themselves).  There is no objectivity in America -- everyone is a crony capitalist to one degree or another.  Even me, although I have no financial interests in Big Farma, Big Pharma, junk food, dietary supplements or the sickcare system so I'm very relatively objective.  And I care about my health as a #1 priority, not making a profit for myself, my family, my company, my cronies, my alumni network, my community or suppporting all the fragile, tenuous egos involved in public policy bureaucracy (I'm sure WiseOne can relate to that one!).

I've never said that saturated fats are pro-healthy.  My anecdotal experience indicates otherwise.  But not being heathly is not the same thing as being unhealthy or dangerous.  The body is far more complex and context dependent than a simple universal "eat x and get y disease" shtick.  The dietary saturated fat/cholesterol lipid hypothesis has no evidence that stands up to objective scrutiny**.  Study the history of Ancel Keys and all the pieces will fall into place.

** Propaganda mouthpieces, undergraduates, journalists, publish or perish non-tenured academics doing meta-analysis of previously flawed studies and conflict-of-interest studies all declaring that "x causes y disease" are simply not credible.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of published "scientific evidence" is now of this type.  The real problem is a dearth of critical thinking skills, lazyness and a lack of time.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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