Do Animals Have Rights

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Do Animals Have Rights

Post by moda0306 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:13 pm

I have a very activist friend who just posted the following article to Facebook (obviously potentially biased from PETA).

NIH Child Abuse: Experiments on Baby Monkeys Exposed


I was hoping to hit on this subject once Kshartle proved self-ownership, but that will obviously not happen until I'm shitting my pants in a nursing home, so I thought I'd get this subject going early.

Are animals property?  Can we do whatever we want with them?  Does a being that can obviously feel pain and fear have no moral relevancy? 

I eat meat. I've smacked a dog. I shoot grouse.  But some of this shit bothers me. Is there a moral element to it?
Last edited by moda0306 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
User avatar
WildAboutHarry
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by WildAboutHarry » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:54 pm

[quote=moda0306]Are animals property?  Can we do whatever we want with them?  Does a being that can obviously feel pain and fear have no moral relevancy? [/quote]

They can be.  No.  Maybe (define the set of morals you want to consider).

I, too, eat meat.  I, too, have smacked a dog.  I have not shot a grouse (but I have shot a few doves and pheasants).

Needless cruelty is, well, needlessly cruel.  Tasing downer cattle seems needless and cruel.  But I don't think we need to do a Soylent Green ending for food animals either (i.e. soothing photos and music) before they are dispatched.  Death is cruel.  But it is not needless, since eat we must (as do other animals).  Medical research is necessary and cruel, but not necessarily needlessly so.

Most of us are so far removed from food production that we can afford a bit of squeamishness when considering using animals for food or medical research.  Perhaps we need to dine more frequently at "Del Staters Rabbit Hut" to get a dose of meat-eating "reality".
It is the settled policy of America, that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute.  The United States, while they wish for war with no nation, will buy peace with none"  James Madison
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:37 am

moda0306 wrote: I eat meat. I've smacked a dog. I shoot grouse.  But some of this shit bothers me. Is there a moral element to it?
I wouldn't do anything to an animal that I wouldn't do to a human.  I don't make a distinction.

I eat vegans.  I don't smack my dog around.

When a kitten claws me, I suck it up.  If a 90 lb. dog charges me, I try to hurt it.

When I do biology experiments, I run them on myself first.
User avatar
WildAboutHarry
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by WildAboutHarry » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:48 pm

Farmstead Meatsmith.

Video here

Thoughtful butchery.  And thought provoking.  And no styrofoam.
It is the settled policy of America, that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute.  The United States, while they wish for war with no nation, will buy peace with none"  James Madison
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by moda0306 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:23 am

Let's leave the issue of whether human beings who have an insensitivity to murder have rights for another thread. For if they don't, we get ourselves into quite a functional pickle of deciding whether we have to prove them to be murderers first before removing their "rights."

Not to mention the fact that almost everyone supports some war in the past, which essentially hiring someone else to do your killing for you via the ballot box, and this could get real hairy then...

Sorry. I know I've hijacked my fair share of threads.  I just think violent tendencies are a different set of topics altogether.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
Kshartle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3559
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:38 pm

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by Kshartle » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:33 am

moda0306 wrote: Sorry. I know I've hijacked my fair share of threads. 
So have I. I'm not trying to do that here.

There are a couple ways this thread can go, the most likely one is everyone giving their opinion based on what their teachers told them, their parents told them, their priest told them, the president told them, their favorite star told them.

It will masquerade as rationale debate with a goal, but will go nowhere. All these smart guys and no conclusions reached, just everyone sharing their opinion, which is fine.

If you're serious about the question moda, then analysis has to be done and precise definitions agreed upon.

So if you're asking "Do Animals Have Rights"? Well........what's an animal and what are rights? Furthermore, what does it mean to "have rights"? What is the practical definition of what it means to "have rights".

This is how you really start to answer the question, rather than the usual discussion, which again is fine if you really don't want to get to the answer. I think maybe you do though.

I'll maybe just post one opening for the China capitalist joke/non-joke. Just hard to keep up with many interesting discussions. Everytime a new one starts you have to drop another one even though they're interesting. It's like thread new-topic crack and many are addicted.

Anybody do the the time-machine kickstarter lately? Let those producers know there is demand baby!  :D
Last edited by Kshartle on Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by moda0306 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:47 am

By rights I mean negative rights. Freedom from initiation of force from moral agents.

By animals, I mean those that perhaps appear to have the most moral relvency. Which is vague to be sure. Elephants, whales, dogs, monkeys.

For the purposes of this let's use apes.  The feel pain, fear, affection, etc.  Do they have ANY moral relevancy at all. If so, it would be nice to figure out exactly logically why someone thinks that, but I was more curious simply what people thought, as most of us think this stuff is unprovable.

I don't see how you (Kshartle) would approach this from any different position than going through the same stuff we've been going through in the morality thread. Not that I didn't want you to participate, but I figured any deductive discussion with you on rights was going to get us right back into the same mess we've not been making enough progress on.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
Kshartle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3559
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:38 pm

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by Kshartle » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:16 am

moda0306 wrote: I don't see how you (Kshartle) would approach this from any different position than going through the same stuff we've been going through in the morality thread. Not that I didn't want you to participate, but I figured any deductive discussion with you on rights was going to get us right back into the same mess we've not been making enough progress on.
I'm not interested enough is all. It's tough, like I said, we've all got so many things going and then you show up here and every single day there is a new thread or two that you want to weigh in on. But then you do that and if you write something interesting you get 2-3 responses and on and on. It's hard to maintain interest when a couple new ones crop up. I start writing and then just don't hit send because the commitment means dropping other stuff.

How I would approach this one differently is I'd skip ahead to just defining right like you did and go from there seeing if animals have them. Defining morality and it's existance is more complicated. If for the purposes here you just skip to you definition and take it as a given that this concept exists, just figure out how anything could posses it and see if Ape's have/fit that criteria.
Last edited by Kshartle on Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
hljockey
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:24 am

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by hljockey » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:32 pm

I once heard someone say that they are ready to grant animals the same rights as humans when they organize and demand them for themselves.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

And a corollary of my own to that idea would be that I'm ready to recognize their rights when they are ready to recognize mine. I figure if I startle a grizzly bear walking in the wild he's probably not going to be ready to sit down and have a discussion about how we can mutually enjoy the wilderness.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14231
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by dualstow » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:09 pm

hljockey said: I once heard someone say that they are ready to grant animals the same rights as humans when they organize and demand them for themselves.
10+ years ago, I was reading this nonfiction book called Next of Kin about Washoe the chimpanzee, who learned sign language. At one point in the story, a few chimps who knew sign language well had been sold for medical experiments. Sitting in their cage, they were greeted by a tearful researcher -- the author, I think -- who had come to say goodbye. He asked if they had any last requests before he left them and they repeatedly made the sign for KEY.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
hljockey
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:24 am

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by hljockey » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:22 pm

dualstow wrote:
hljockey said: I once heard someone say that they are ready to grant animals the same rights as humans when they organize and demand them for themselves.
10+ years ago, I was reading this nonfiction book called Next of Kin about Washoe the chimpanzee, who learned sign language. At one point in the story, a few chimps who knew sign language well had been sold for medical experiments. Sitting in their cage, they were greeted by a tearful researcher -- the author, I think -- who had come to say goodbye. He asked if they had any last requests before he left them and they repeatedly made the sign for KEY.
I think I might have seen a story about that chimp on PBS or a similar channel lately. Apparently at one time it seemed a good thing to try to learn to bring chimps into our world to communicate but it fell out of favor and now scientists think we should just leave them alone. Left the chimp feeling really bad as I remember it but he seemed to be coping okay at the end of the story, although he wanted an ice cream cone.

But what is it about the sign for KEY?
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14231
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by dualstow » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:54 pm

That must have been a different chimp. Washoe, a female, had about as good a life as a chimp can have, except for a couple of miscarriages.
But what is it about the sign for KEY?
They wanted to get out! Read your quote that I quoted, and then my quote again.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Do Animals Have Rights

Post by moda0306 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:39 pm

hljockey wrote: I once heard someone say that they are ready to grant animals the same rights as humans when they organize and demand them for themselves.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

And a corollary of my own to that idea would be that I'm ready to recognize their rights when they are ready to recognize mine. I figure if I startle a grizzly bear walking in the wild he's probably not going to be ready to sit down and have a discussion about how we can mutually enjoy the wilderness.
So let's carry this logic forward...

Animals need to "organize for their rights" to have them?  What does that mean?  If you take a bat to a wasps nest, they have a tendency to "organize for their rights."  Do you mean them?  If not, what do you mean?


Your next point implies that anything doesn't have moral agency doesn't have moral relevancy.  Does that mean that babies and children don't?  That the mentally challenged don't?

If animals don't have moral relevancy, can we torture them as we please?
Last edited by moda0306 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
Post Reply