Evolution discussion

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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:02 pm

Benko wrote:
moda0306 wrote: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epLhaGGjfRw

An interesting lecture by my man Tyson. This has been going on for centuries, and by insanely SMART people.  Once we don't understand something, "God did it."  Until we finally figure out that it is completely natural with a new well-tested theory.
Leaving god (skynet, Hal, etc way aside...)
So until the theory arrives which explains things it is OK to say we don't know/understand, right?
As opposed to being branded a denier for pointing this out.
Of course if there is no theory describing a phenomenon it is ok to say "we do not know."  What's dangerous is to assume "God did it" and quit trying to learn about it.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:07 pm

moda0306 wrote: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epLhaGGjfRw

An interesting lecture by my man Tyson. This has been going on for centuries, and by insanely SMART people.  Once we don't understand something, "God did it."  Until we finally figure out that it is completely natural with a new well-tested theory.
Darnit, I thought it was going to be Mike Tyson. 

I'll watch this moda, and I'm sure I'll be converted.  :)
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:14 pm

Here's a short video of a guy breaking down supposed "irreducible complexity" of a flagellum. I would love him (or someone else) to break down other supposedly "irreducibly complex" things like eardrums and eyes. I'll see if there is more on the interwebs. Not that it is necessarily true, but i would love to see an ID'er refute them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2alpk8PUd4
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:19 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Of course if there is no theory describing a phenomenon it is ok to say "we do not know." 
+1
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:21 pm

Ok, he wanders about for the first 15 minutes, and the most interesting thing he says is that Newton was a genius.  I can agree with that.  He talks about the fact that humans didn't understand planetary motion a couple thousand years ago.  I can buy that.  So he says that where knowledge ends, God is evoked to explain things.  Then he blabbers on about how we're "done with the orbits," without admitting nobody knows where gravity came from, where the planets came from.  I still haven't figured out what his argument is.  He seems disappointed when people ascribe to God things they don't understand; but then when people do understand the laws of the universe, he believes these laws come from .... what?  Nobody doubts that the universe obeys physical laws such as gravity, etc.  And we uncover more laws every day.  So what do we conclude from that?  That's the question.  Who set up the universe?  Tyson, Dawkins, or another sarcastic clown?  No, these guys will be taking a dirt nap in a few decades.  These guys are clowns, just out promoting their brand. 

Now he's talking about intelligent design being the philosophy of ignorance.  He's able to look back in the past and criticize Newton.  Ok, great.  What has this clown done for science?  He's an entertainer, and a boring one at that. 

Now he's blabbering about the internet, and how we invented it in the U.S.  Ok, great.  Something about naming rights.  Now he's blathering on about 9/11.  He lived four blocks away. 

Good crap, this is who you throw out there to prove evolution?  This guy is a complete clown.  My grandma could out debate this idiot, and she's DEAD.  :) 

Ok, off to bed.  I remain convinced that evolution is a religion, and not an honest religion. 
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:26 pm

Ok, one more comment moda ... you have to find a better mouthpiece than Tyson.  I seriously think Mike Tyson is probably a higher level thinker than this guy.  Do you really find his "arguments" convincing?  Don't you see that he's kind of an MSNBC/FOX entertainer?  A Bill Maher?  Maybe that sort of argument appeals to you, but I honestly expected more from you ... seriously.  So you need to step it up.  I'm not sharing my smoked brisket with you unless you do a LOT better than this douche. 
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:33 pm

Good crap, watching this guy is like watching a bad train wreck.  I can't stop.  I don't remember seeing a worse argument for anything.  Now he's blabbering about crocs eating chickens.  At least he's apologizing for taking up our time now.  "Birth defects are tragic."  He managed a verbal error when he said "aborted feces" when he meant to say "aborted fetuses."  Good freudian slip there that might tell us more about this guy.  Now he's blabbering about a separate hole for eating, breathing and talking.  Someone slip this clown some food.  Now he's talking about santa claus.  Now he's wondering what's happening between his legs (hint, hopefully nothing ... don't propagate this gene pool). 

Now he's worried that someone in the lab will say that only God knows how something works.  He doesn't want them in the science classroom.  Now he's whining about Republicans. 

Moda, you need to step it WAY up. 

My seven year old just stopped by and lambasted me for referring to someone as a "clown."  And he's right, clowns don't deserve this.  :)
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:40 pm

This wasn't a proof that intelligent design is false. It's an accurate description of how people look to God when they can't figure something out. And why it's so harmful. And he's right.

And if you think he's that stupid, I think we best just agree to disagree. I've seen a lot of his stuff and Tyson is the man.

I can understand why you wouldn't like a guy who is sarcastic towards religion, but his sarcasm comes from a place deeply rooted in frustration with when religion tries to silence scientific truth. His has happened so many times in history that it's not even funny.  We are just going to have very different perspectives on how much sarcasm can be heaped upon religion without crossing a professionalism line.
Last edited by moda0306 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:55 pm

Why don't we leave behind Tyson, as he's obviously long on stories and his controversial "perspective," and short on objective deductive analysis.

I think one of the more useful areas will be focusing on irreducible complexity, which a HUGE portion of the intelligent design communities argument rests upon.  I think this is going to be a huge area of debate.  Should be interesting.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:31 pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W96AJ0ChboU

Another video that more thoroughly dissects ID and irreducible complexity.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by rickb » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:06 am

Desert wrote: I still haven't figured out what his argument is. 
Seriously?

His argument is that science stops when scientists ascribe things they don't understand to God. 

This has happened repeatedly.  Otherwise brilliant scientists have pushed beyond their contemporaries, and discovered/explained things no one in all of history did before them - but stopped dead in their tracks at things they couldn't (at the time) understand and, rather than push further, have offered explanations that invoke God.

His point is that belief in God is detrimental to science.  It basically killed the Arabic scientific explosion (between 800 and 1100 AD).  He's not so subtly saying that Intelligent Design proponents now are endangering science in the US, and that a scientist who accepts "God did it" as the answer to ANY question is not actually a scientist. 

Is evolution the right answer?  If it's wrong, the right answer certainly isn't "God did it".
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:58 am

rickb wrote:
Is evolution the right answer?  If it's wrong, the right answer certainly isn't "God did it".
And you absolutely positively know this how?  The right answer certainly could be "God did it" if God did indeed did do it.  It seems to me the answer "God did it" is a valid hypothesis that unbelievers should not rule out until they can  prove that God had no part in it (however one wishes to define "it").  In my humble opinion, deciding ahead of time to limit ones options by not objectively considering all possibilities is not in the best interests of science or religion.

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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:03 am

Mountaineer wrote: It seems to me the answer "God did it" is a valid hypothesis that unbelievers should not rule out until they can  prove that God had no part in it (however one wishes to define "it").
The existence of God cannot be disproven, and therefore can never be a part of science.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:27 am

dualstow wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: It seems to me the answer "God did it" is a valid hypothesis that unbelievers should not rule out until they can  prove that God had no part in it (however one wishes to define "it").
The existence of God cannot be disproven, and therefore can never be a part of science.
- Karl Popper
OK if you wish to believe that.  But I still don't understand how that makes it "right" to rule out "God did it" as an alternative to evolution.

But, I must give my view:  God will always be a part of science since He created man and our ability to understand our surroundings via science.  Science is a wonderful, useful gift from God.  But worshiping science or making it ones religion should never replace worshiping the Creator.  If we define the word "god" as whatever or whomever we trust for our identity, security, or meaning in life, then all of us have a god!  The question becomes, "How's your 'god' working for you in the 21st century?"

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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by pugchief » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:48 am

Desert wrote: 4.  Evolution was birthed by man's need to explain the wonder of ourselves and our surroundings in the absence of a designer.  It's the foundation of humanistic, materialistic thought.  There is a lot riding on it, and the huge secular "science" industry will do anything to support it and defend it, even in the face of huge problems or holes in the evidence.  But they must support it, because if it dies, there isn't much to take its place: we're then down to aliens or God.
And you don't think the biblical story of creation was birthed by early man's need to explain something they couldn't understand? At least the theory of evolution tries to show the path from which the conclusion is derived. Creationism simply makes a statement and expects one to believe it without any other proof or logic than faith.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:53 am

I don't want to derail from evolution, but briefly:
Mountaineer wrote: OK if you wish to believe that.  But I still don't understand how that makes it "right" to rule out "God did it" as an alternative to evolution.
Think of it this way: if you have to rule out everything proposed that cannot be disproven, there are an infinite number of ideas that cannot be ruled out. Maybe Satan created the universe and the God in the Hebrew Bible is the bad guy, and a pretender. Maybe Kim Kardashian created the universe... Maybe it's a big test and only those who offer their allegiance to the biblical God will be punished.
But, I must give my view:  ... But worshiping science or making it ones religion should never replace worshiping the Creator.
That comparison is often made, but science includes replacing old conclusions with new ones in light of new evidence. Therefore, conclusions drawn from science can't be said to be "worshipped."  Evolution, Darwinism, survival of the fittest and nature in general can appear to be pretty cold and cruel sometimes. Somehow, though, unbelievers still find their way to morality.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:24 am

moda0306 wrote: Why don't we leave behind Tyson, as he's obviously long on stories and his controversial "perspective," and short on objective deductive analysis.

I think one of the more useful areas will be focusing on irreducible complexity, which a HUGE portion of the intelligent design communities argument rests upon.  I think this is going to be a huge area of debate.  Should be interesting.
I agree moda.  I was too harsh last night, obviously.  I'll come back for more calm discussions tonight!  :)
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:59 am

dualstow wrote: I don't want to derail from evolution, but briefly:
Mountaineer wrote: OK if you wish to believe that.  But I still don't understand how that makes it "right" to rule out "God did it" as an alternative to evolution.
Think of it this way: if you have to rule out everything proposed that cannot be disproven, there are an infinite number of ideas that cannot be ruled out. Maybe Satan created the universe and the God in the Hebrew Bible is the bad guy, and a pretender. Maybe Kim Kardashian created the universe... Maybe it's a big test and only those who offer their allegiance to the biblical God will be punished.
But, I must give my view:  ... But worshiping science or making it ones religion should never replace worshiping the Creator.
That comparison is often made, but science includes replacing old conclusions with new ones in light of new evidence. Therefore, conclusions drawn from science can't be said to be "worshipped."  Evolution, Darwinism, survival of the fittest and nature in general can appear to be pretty cold and cruel sometimes. Somehow, though, unbelievers still find their way to morality.
Re. point one.  There are literally thousands of manuscripts that deal with Judaism and Christianity with more being discovered all the time, including non-Biblical sources that substantiate Jesus.  I have not run across (m)any authorative texts that have evidence that Kim Kardashian created much of anything of value ... ditto Satan.  As you say though ...... maybe; we shall see on the Last Day.  :)

Re. point two.  Thanks be to God for giving mankind a conscience so we can all struggle our way to "find" morality.  I agree there is much overlap between God's moral law that is described in the Christian Bible and the teachings of other cultures.  That is another case for the Creator.

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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:14 am

Ah, you're taking a page from my grandmother's book. She used to say, "If it weren't true, they wouldn't print it!"  ;)
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:38 am

Here is a question for the evolution supporters:  Is this the next "natural" step in human evolution?  Why or why not and/or any other thoughts you have on the subject? 

My perspective is this is just one example in a very long string of examples on how "cursed" mankind is after the incident in the Garden of Eden and how thankful I am to have a way out of this world's messes to a new perfect creation of eternal joy and peace.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... more-19636

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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:02 pm

Mountaineer wrote: Here is a question for the evolution supporters:  Is this the next "natural" step in human evolution?  Why or why not and/or any other thoughts you have on the subject? 

My perspective is this is just one example in a very long string of examples on how "cursed" mankind is after the incident in the Garden of Eden and how thankful I am to have a way out of this world's messes to a new perfect creation of eternal joy and peace.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... more-19636

... Mountaineer
No, that is not the next step in human evolution. IMO, of course. I don't know why anyone would think so, though.


And you mean eternal joy and peace to those who accept Jesus as their savior with little evidence that he is... While the rest of us suffer internal damnation... Right? :)
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by iwealth » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:22 pm

Mountaineer wrote:... how thankful I am to have a way out of this world's messes to a new perfect creation of eternal joy and peace.
Did this desire influence your decision to believe in (a) God? Or did your belief in (a) God come first?
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:33 pm

Desert wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Why don't we leave behind Tyson, as he's obviously long on stories and his controversial "perspective," and short on objective deductive analysis.

I think one of the more useful areas will be focusing on irreducible complexity, which a HUGE portion of the intelligent design communities argument rests upon.  I think this is going to be a huge area of debate.  Should be interesting.
I agree moda.  I was too harsh last night, obviously.  I'll come back for more calm discussions tonight!  :)
But seriously... if you've seen Neil's less politically charged stuff, I don't see how you can't love the guy.  He just friggin' loves science and discovery, and explaining it to folks... which, yes, means he has to be somewhat affable and (gasp) entertaining in his delivery.  If he's simply an "entertainer," though, worthy of nothing more than an MSNBC slot, than I shudder at what we should call most religious "leaders" :).

If you get a chance to watch any of his stuff on Netflix (Cosmos & some other documentary series), he's one interesting dude.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:38 pm

Mountaineer wrote: Is this the next "natural" step in human evolution?
;) Though the question is tongue-in-cheek, I'll use this space to remind you that evolution is not necessarily up, up, up towards perfection (whatever that is) but rather adapting to one's environment. Hence, there may be some truth in the old notion that only stupid people are breeding. Or at least, the world "rewards" those who make a lot of babies, to quote Idiocracy

The physical part happens so slowly that we don't notice. I think most evolution these days is social and cultural.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:46 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
rickb wrote:
Is evolution the right answer?  If it's wrong, the right answer certainly isn't "God did it".
And you absolutely positively know this how?  The right answer certainly could be "God did it" if God did indeed did do it.  It seems to me the answer "God did it" is a valid hypothesis that unbelievers should not rule out until they can  prove that God had no part in it (however one wishes to define "it").  In my humble opinion, deciding ahead of time to limit ones options by not objectively considering all possibilities is not in the best interests of science or religion.

... Mountaineer
It certainly could be a reasonable hypothesis to ascribe physical phenomenon that don't make sense to a super-natural being.  Of course, there's no evidence of it, and as soon as we find out that a form or reanalysis of science CAN provide the answer, we have to (yet again) abandon that hypothesis.

There are a near-infinite number of ways some supernatural being may or may not have decided to organize the universe and interact with man-kind.  What is frustrating isn't the assumption that MAYBE there is a God, but the assumption of all sorts of things about him, and the belief that "trying to figure out too much" about our world in objective, scientific manners is akin to to trying to "reject Christ" or something like that.
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