Evolution discussion

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Benko
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Benko » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:35 pm

doodle wrote: Pournelle is a science fiction writer with a degree in psychology and political science and Fred reed is a journalist....why does their opinion hold any more weight than what Sean Hannity thinks about global warming?
Pournelle was the lead writer for Byte computer magazine for many years, was a consultant to NASA, and assistant to perhaps it was mayor of major city. 

Pournelle and Fred both have common sense and are grounded in reality, something not very common these days.  YOu really should read and think about the Kipling poem I just posted.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Benko » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:06 pm

dualstow wrote: But jaw parts can morph into hearing bones
The point is to use hearing as an example, in order for hearing to work, you need 3 "hearing bones" arranged just so, an eardrum held taught with the bones held in place against it just so, a way to transmit the vibration,  a way to transform the vibrations into nerve symbols and a part of the brain to understand these electrical impulses.

So the issue is that you need to evolve many many complicated things all of which work together (if engineered just so) but which are useless by themselves.  I'm not coming from the place others on this thread are, but you have to seriously violate occams razor to believe anything other than this was designed.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:29 pm

Mountaineer wrote: Whether or not shi-tzus and mastiffs have micro-evolved from wolves (not a species change as they can still interbreed) does not seem to me to be proof of much of anything
When you look at those animals, is it such a stretch to think that man and other apes might share common ancestry just as different dog breeds do? Especially considering the overlapping DNA?
, in order for hearing to work, you need 3 "hearing bones" arranged just so, an eardrum held taught with the bones held in place against it just so, a way to transmit the vibration,  a way to transform the vibrations into nerve symbols and a part of the brain to understand these electrical impulses.

So the issue is that you need to evolve many many complicated things all of which work together (if engineered just so) but which are useless by themselves.  I'm not coming from the place others on this thread are, but you have to seriously violate occams razor to believe anything other than this was designed.
Firstly, though, Occam's Razor is not absolute. It does not state that the explanation with the fewest assumptions is always the right one. On the contrary. Secondly, if there is a watchmaker (or an earmaker), then we have to find out who made the watchmaker. And that sounds more complaticated than evolution. We have evolution plus the guiding hand, as Mountaineer suggested, of an entity that started it all.

Finally:
A recently discovered intermediate form is the primitive mammal Yanoconodon, from 125 million years ago in the Mesozoic, in which the ossicles have separated from the jaw and serve the hearing function in the middle ear, yet maintain a slender connection to the jaw via the ossified Meckel's cartilage, which in more advanced mammals dissolves during development.[32]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... s_and_ears
Last edited by dualstow on Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:03 pm

doodle wrote:
Darwin was very concerned about the cambrian explosion, the fact that creatures of all types appear very suddenly in the fossil record.  He felt that the fossil evidence was just incomplete though, and that after additional digging, we'd find the transitional forms in previous layers.  But we haven't. 
This is wrong. There are transitional fossils. Also, one has to remember the specific conditions necessary to form fossils....they are somewhat rare.

I also don't know what happened before the Big Bang, or other such questions but why does one have to insert God into the equation? This is what humans have always done when we didn't understand something.....it's a stupid habit.
I see it the opposite way.  Humans, far from inserting God into everything, are actively attempting to redefine reality by coming up with purely naturalistic worldviews.  For thousands of years, people understood that the world was created.  The very first humans on earth possessed the creation story, and passed it down through the generations.  The creation itself obviously supported the creation story.  But this didn't work for humanists.  They needed a new story, one that didn't depend on God.    They didn't then just stumble across evolution as the fossil record was examined.  Evolution was, and remains, a desperate attempt to explain our existence in the absence of a creator.  There is a seemingly boundless faith in long timelines and random chance to explain everything in existence.  Despite repeatedly running into problems that don't support the theory, like the cambrian explosion or a lack of transitional fossils, evolutionists desperately cling to the theory and continue to present it as reality to society. 

Regarding transitional forms, there should be as many in the fossil record as there are recognizable forms.  Instead, we have the cambrian explosion which supports creation much more than it does evolution.  The big bang theory and present expanding universe both point to a beginning that makes no sense in a naturalistic framework.

For more on transitional forms, see this article:
http://www.rae.org/pdf/FAQ01.pdf
The number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, (must) be truly
enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such
intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain;
and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my
theory.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:22 pm

So-called vestigial structures or organs is another interesting topic.  Humans, in our typical arrogance, have several times declared a human organ to be vestigial, only later to discover its purpose.  Examples include the spleen, appendix, tonsils. 
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by WildAboutHarry » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:21 pm

[quote=Desert]Regarding transitional forms, there should be as many in the fossil record as there are recognizable forms.  Instead, we have the cambrian explosion which supports creation much more than it does evolution.[/quote]

Dualstow has it right.  Fossilization for anything is a rare occurrence.  Soft-bodied things rarely leave fossils. 

And the concept of transitional forms is a human construct.  Life (and evolution) is a continuum.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:34 pm

WildAboutHarry wrote:
Desert wrote:Regarding transitional forms, there should be as many in the fossil record as there are recognizable forms.  Instead, we have the cambrian explosion which supports creation much more than it does evolution.
Dualstow has it right.  Fossilization for anything is a rare occurrence.  Soft-bodied things rarely leave fossils. 

And the concept of transitional forms is a human construct.  Life (and evolution) is a continuum.
Well, I agree that transitional forms are a human construct.  But you can't defend evolution without them.  If a life form gradually evolves from a fish to a land animal, we have to have millions of years of fish with little legs crawling the earth.  Maybe a fish with one leg, later a fish with two legs, etc.  Then a big hairy fish, and then finally Harry Brown. 
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Benko » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:11 pm

Benko wrote:
dualstow wrote: But jaw parts can morph into hearing bones
The point is to use hearing as an example, in order for hearing to work, you need 3 "hearing bones" arranged just so, an eardrum held taught with the bones held in place against it just so, a way to transmit the vibration,  a way to transform the vibrations into nerve symbols and a part of the brain to understand these electrical impulses.

So the issue is that you need to evolve many many complicated things all of which work together (if engineered just so) but which are useless by themselves.
This is the bottom line:

the issue is that you need to evolve many many complicated things all of which work together (if engineered just so) but which are useless by themselves.

I have no clue what the explanation is, nor do I need to. I only know that  Darwinian evolution, as best I understand, can't really explain things like this which include the hearing mechanism, the visual system (from an anatomic point of view), and many other aspects from e.g. a physiological point of view.  So I'm left saying I don't know what caused this, but planning by whatever (god, aliens, skynet, Hal from 2001) seems more likely.  I'm open to other possibilities, but unless this is addressed, there is a whopping hole in evolution as an answer. 

NB:  I totally understand that evolution could certainly be true for everything and the answer to this solved at some later date and that this does not disprove evolution.  IT is just that for now, one can't say it answers al the questions either.
Last edited by Benko on Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by doodle » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:21 pm

The insertion of God as an answer as to how we got here is a cop out answer for something which we don't exactly know. In the meantime, there is plenty of hard evidence which points towards evolution and absolutely none which points towards the existence of God. It's perfectly fine for someone to say that they don't know how humans got here....or that the present theories are lacking.....it's a completely different story to give a faith based answer for which no evidence exists. Even if you could show that all the creatures appeared simultaneously it still wouldn't be evidence for a god.....it's just as plausible to say that aliens dropped them off here.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:50 pm

doodle wrote: The insertion of God as an answer as to how we got here is a cop out answer for something which we don't exactly know. In the meantime, there is plenty of hard evidence which points towards evolution and absolutely none which points towards the existence of God. It's perfectly fine for someone to say that they don't know how humans got here....or that the present theories are lacking.....it's a completely different story to give a faith based answer for which no evidence exists. Even if you could show that all the creatures appeared simultaneously it still wouldn't be evidence for a god.....it's just as plausible to say that aliens dropped them off here.
I think I'd agree with your last sentence, except for all the other evidence for God's existence, and a decided lack of evidence for aliens planting life on earth.  I think you need to consider the various evidences of God's existence and look at them in their totality. 
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:55 pm

Benko wrote:
Benko wrote:
dualstow wrote: But jaw parts can morph into hearing bones
The point is to use hearing as an example, in order for hearing to work, you need 3 "hearing bones" arranged just so, an eardrum held taught with the bones held in place against it just so, a way to transmit the vibration,  a way to transform the vibrations into nerve symbols and a part of the brain to understand these electrical impulses.

So the issue is that you need to evolve many many complicated things all of which work together (if engineered just so) but which are useless by themselves.
This is the bottom line:

the issue is that you need to evolve many many complicated things all of which work together (if engineered just so) but which are useless by themselves.

I have no clue what the explanation is, nor do I need to. I only know that  Darwinian evolution, as best I understand, can't really explain things like this which include the hearing mechanism, the visual system (from an anatomic point of view), and many other aspects from e.g. a physiological point of view.  So I'm left saying I don't know what caused this, but planning by whatever (god, aliens, skynet, Hal from 2001) seems more likely.  I'm open to other possibilities, but unless this is addressed, there is a whopping hole in evolution as an answer. 

NB:  I totally understand that evolution could certainly be true for everything and the answer to this solved at some later date and that this does not disprove evolution.  IT is just that for now, one can't say it answers al the questions either.
I like this summary.  I lived with something similar for many years.  Evolution theory was terribly lacking.  The religious folks were crazy.  So I just left the issue of origins open in the back of my mind, but with a bent toward thinking that some sort of intelligence was likely involved.  But that last part nagged at me, and ultimately was at least partially involved in my conversion to a belief system I formerly hated at least as much as Doodle does now. 
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by WildAboutHarry » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:33 pm

Well, I agree that transitional forms are a human construct.  But you can't defend evolution without them.  If a life form gradually evolves from a fish to a land animal, we have to have millions of years of fish with little legs crawling the earth.  Maybe a fish with one leg, later a fish with two legs, etc.  Then a big hairy fish, and then finally Harry Brown.
You forgot the vestigial "e".  :)
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