Evolution discussion

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moda0306
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by moda0306 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:34 pm

Mountaineer,

It is completely relevant what you think if you are aware of opposing or tangential facts to the ones I believe to be true. It's completely relevant if I'm wrong and you're right, and God not only exists for certain, but exists the way you say he does.  You are one of few access points I have to the truth, if you are correct, so your interpretation of reality might be the most important one I should be considering.



Another question for you on your Faith.... What came first, your strong belief in Christ as your savior, or your conclusion that there is decent empirical evidence that Christ really rose from his grave.


Also, if you're willing to accept the possibility that God put fossil's here to test our faith, doesn't that kind of throw out anything we could ever believe about God?  The Bible?  Jesus?  Perhaps they're all some sick test that we haven't figured out yet...
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by doodle » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:43 pm

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,



Also, if you're willing to accept the possibility that God put fossil's here to test our faith, doesn't that kind of throw out anything we could ever believe about God?  The Bible?  Jesus?  Perhaps they're all some sick test that we haven't figured out yet...
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:59 pm

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

It is completely relevant what you think if you are aware of opposing or tangential facts to the ones I believe to be true. It's completely relevant if I'm wrong and you're right, and God not only exists for certain, but exists the way you say he does.  You are one of few access points I have to the truth, if you are correct, so your interpretation of reality might be the most important one I should be considering.



Another question for you on your Faith.... What came first, your strong belief in Christ as your savior, or your conclusion that there is decent empirical evidence that Christ really rose from his grave.


Also, if you're willing to accept the possibility that God put fossil's here to test our faith, doesn't that kind of throw out anything we could ever believe about God?  The Bible?  Jesus?  Perhaps they're all some sick test that we haven't figured out yet...
moda, I appologize.  I did not mean for you to perceive me as blowing you off.  I think it is most important to say that Salvation is for those who believe in the promises of God.  Said another way, those who believe that Jesus came to earth, lived, died, and rose from the the dead and came to atone for the sins of all from all time will be saved and have eternal life in a perfect body on the new earth.  What I believe, however, is not important for you to be saved.  But, that said, I'll try to answer your questions honestly, as I think I've been trying to do all along.

I have come to believe and understand that I was given the Holy Spirit in my baptism.  It never left me.  My recognition, however, of what that meant became increasing clear with time and study of the Word.  The more I've studied, the more I became/become convinced that Christ really did rise from the grave.  The other explanations (see the Letters I posted in the religion thread) or alternate theories just do not "hold water" like the the Bible accounts do.  Is that because of my study or the Holy Spirit guiding me?  I honestly do not know in a way to prove it, but I am sure it is the Spirit's work in me somehow.  Can you be saved without being baptised?  Yes.  Can you be baptised and lose your faith?  Yes.  This is why I harp on "hearing the Word" so much.  I am starting to wonder if you would be interested in listening to a series of apologetics discussions (defense of the faith) but I'm hesitant to recommend that unless you are really serious and would really listen to them.  But, if you are, just let me know.  Those discussions are more solid than anything I can give you on an internet forum but would require an investment of your time.

I don't think that God put fossils here to "test" our faith.  I really do not think God would give us some "sick" test; that is inconsistent with God's Word as I understand it.  I do think Satan causes us to doubt.  Doubt God's Word, doubt that God loves us, doubt that makes us think that God wants us to burn in hell, doubt in God so we desire to put faith in some aspect of the creation instead of the Creator.

... Mountaineer


 
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Desert » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:10 am

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

Do you think our fossil evidence provides reasonable evidence for macro evolution if they DO represent actual skulls? 

Your details around the age of the earth are fine I guess.  I'll agree that an all-powerful God can make anything happen... But the age of the earth is of utmost importance if we are to understand whether we should be interpreting the Bible literally or not.... I mean I had bacon this morning... I might as well have had gay sex!
I just made a note to myself to never have breakfast with Moda.  :)

I think evolution faces a couple of very difficult problems:
1. The big bang (where does the original mass of near-infinite order and energy come from?) 
2. The Cambrian Explosion

Darwin was very concerned about the cambrian explosion, the fact that creatures of all types appear very suddenly in the fossil record.  He felt that the fossil evidence was just incomplete though, and that after additional digging, we'd find the transitional forms in previous layers.  But we haven't. 

If you've got some time, "Darwin's Dilemma" is an interesting film to watch.  This copy isn't the best, but it's viewable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxh9o32m5c0
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:36 am

Mountaineer: Dinosaurs? Yes or no?
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Benko » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:51 pm

FRED on Evolution:

The Bugs in Darwin
http://fredoneverything.net/BotFly.shtml

Pournelle:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmano ... evolution/

you can take all the components of a watch, but them in a bag, and shake them forever and the probability that they will fall into place still remains vanishingly small with relation to the age of the universe. You can make the probability a bit larger by adding multiple copies of some of the components, but a bit larger still leaves you a vanishing probability. You can shape the parts such that there’s only one way they will fit together, and the probability they they’ll become a watch rises again, but it’s still small; and now of course you have to explain how the parts got made. If you find a watch in the woods, that’s pretty overwhelming evidence for the existence of a watchmaker. Now what do you look for if you find a watchmaker?

Fred looks at a number of highly complex processes and asks how they might have ‘evolved”?; and his conclusion is the same as mine has been since I was in high school: We don’t know, but it sure isn’t Darwinian survival of the fittest, and it looks a lot more like design than chance. I came to that conclusion before I knew just how complex the universe it, and I have never been shown any reason to change it.

Now by design I don’t mean that there are no elements of chance in the evolution: it’s more complicated than that. I can think of a number of random steps that if made in the correct order will take you from a light sensitive  cluster of cells to an eye as that exists in nature; but not all of those steps have any obvious utility or advantage to the organism. Something that isn’t on that path could and more probably would have happened. By design I mean that somewhere in there is a glimmer of what you’re after.  It was something of this sort that Augustine had in mind when he postulated that creation was in causes, not in completion. When I was in high school I wasn’t converted to the Church by any refutation of Evolution, because I learned Evolution from Brother Fidelis despite the fact that it was still illegal to teach Evolution in the state of Tennessee in 1949. Indeed I didn’t start to question the standard theory until I learned just how complex cellular biology appears to be.


more:
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmano ... on-theory/
Last edited by Benko on Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:49 pm

dualstow wrote: Mountaineer: Dinosaurs? Yes or no?
I used to think so.  That is what I was taught.  Then the more I studied science, the more I realized how much speculation about the past existed and how little provable facts.  Now, I really don't know.  I think man has discovered bones that many natural scientists say are dinos.  As to what the animal, if it really existed, looked like, I have not a clue as it seems there is a lot more speculation and hypothesis than fact.  As I said in an earlier post, I have no clue as to what existed, or for how long, before the "fall" and subsequent curse.

... Mountaineer

Edit:  Darn it!  I wish I had read Benko's post and links before responding.  I could have saved a few electrons  :D
Last edited by Mountaineer on Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by doodle » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:52 pm

Darwin was very concerned about the cambrian explosion, the fact that creatures of all types appear very suddenly in the fossil record.  He felt that the fossil evidence was just incomplete though, and that after additional digging, we'd find the transitional forms in previous layers.  But we haven't. 
This is wrong. There are transitional fossils. Also, one has to remember the specific conditions necessary to form fossils....they are somewhat rare.

I also don't know what happened before the Big Bang, or other such questions but why does one have to insert God into the equation? This is what humans have always done when we didn't understand something.....it's a stupid habit.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by doodle » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:12 pm

Benko wrote: FRED on Evolution:

The Bugs in Darwin
http://fredoneverything.net/BotFly.shtml

Pournelle:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmano ... evolution/

you can take all the components of a watch, but them in a bag, and shake them forever and the probability that they will fall into place still remains vanishingly small with relation to the age of the universe. You can make the probability a bit larger by adding multiple copies of some of the components, but a bit larger still leaves you a vanishing probability. You can shape the parts such that there’s only one way they will fit together, and the probability they they’ll become a watch rises again, but it’s still small; and now of course you have to explain how the parts got made. If you find a watch in the woods, that’s pretty overwhelming evidence for the existence of a watchmaker. Now what do you look for if you find a watchmaker?

Fred looks at a number of highly complex processes and asks how they might have ‘evolved”?; and his conclusion is the same as mine has been since I was in high school: We don’t know, but it sure isn’t Darwinian survival of the fittest, and it looks a lot more like design than chance. I came to that conclusion before I knew just how complex the universe it, and I have never been shown any reason to change it.

Now by design I don’t mean that there are no elements of chance in the evolution: it’s more complicated than that. I can think of a number of random steps that if made in the correct order will take you from a light sensitive  cluster of cells to an eye as that exists in nature; but not all of those steps have any obvious utility or advantage to the organism. Something that isn’t on that path could and more probably would have happened. By design I mean that somewhere in there is a glimmer of what you’re after.  It was something of this sort that Augustine had in mind when he postulated that creation was in causes, not in completion. When I was in high school I wasn’t converted to the Church by any refutation of Evolution, because I learned Evolution from Brother Fidelis despite the fact that it was still illegal to teach Evolution in the state of Tennessee in 1949. Indeed I didn’t start to question the standard theory until I learned just how complex cellular biology appears to be.


more:
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmano ... on-theory/
Pournelle is a science fiction writer with a degree in psychology and political science and Fred reed is a journalist....why does their opinion hold any more weight than what Sean Hannity thinks about global warming?

btw....for an interesting and fair documentary into these questions I recommend this....in fact no conclusions are drawn...just a variety of ideas about how real scientists are thinking about these questionshttp://youtu.be/oyH2D4-tzfM
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by dualstow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:15 pm

I do think the watch analogy is an unfortunate one in that it is a very powerful image & idea that spreads easily, but from the viewpoint of an athiest or agnostic it is steering people in the wrong direction.

Watch and machine parts are so...static. They are made and then they just sit there aside from rusting or breaking. They don't morph into other things. But jaw parts can morph into hearing bones and, if you don't believe that, focus on something that can be proven: shih-tzus and mastiffs can both evolve from wolves, all without God's help.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:19 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Mountaineer,

Do you think our fossil evidence provides reasonable evidence for macro evolution if they DO represent actual skulls? 

Your details around the age of the earth are fine I guess.  I'll agree that an all-powerful God can make anything happen... But the age of the earth is of utmost importance if we are to understand whether we should be interpreting the Bible literally or not.... I mean I had bacon this morning... I might as well have had gay sex!
moda,

I just reread your question and realized you had another question that I did not address in my other response to you.  This is about interpreting the Bible literally or not (and bacon  ;) ).

My understanding is there are different types of "Law and/or law" terminology in the Bible:  The Torah, commandments, decrees, rules, teaching, instruction, testimonies, precepts, Word, promises, statutes and the like ... no wonder it is confusing.  I think your question dealt with "ceremonial law" - the law that impacted the Israelites' lives within the temple and within the community.  Examples of those are "do not mix different types of fiber" which referred mainly to what the priest wore, and "don't eat pig".  Your bacon reference dealt with this type of law.  Since the ceremonial law was for the theocracy that Israel was at that time, the best explanation I could give you as to whether or not you committed a sin by eating bacon is from Matthew 5, verse 17 which says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."  Christ fulfilled (fully filled, fully satisfied) the ceremonial law; it no longer applies to us after Christ came 2000 years ago.  You may feel free to eat bacon and do not need to confess and seek absolution for that one.  Now as for your other sins ................ that is a different question.  ;)  Hope that helped.  I do suggest you stay away from the gay sex and just eat bacon when and if the urge strikes.  ;) ;) ;)


... Mountaineer
Last edited by Mountaineer on Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:30 pm

dualstow wrote: I do think the watch analogy is an unfortunate one in that it is a very powerful image & idea that spreads easily, but from the viewpoint of an athiest or agnostic it is steering people in the wrong direction.

Watch and machine parts are so...static. They are made and then they just sit there aside from rusting or breaking. They don't morph into other things. But jaw parts can morph into hearing bones and, if you don't believe that, focus on something that can be proven: shih-tzus and mastiffs can both evolve from wolves, all without God's help.
I agree the watch/watchmaker analogy can lead people astray.  The "watchmaker" view of God is where God made the universe, then just sat back and watched what happened with no further involvement (a very static view of God's efforts).  My understanding would be that God continues to play a very active role in matters via the Holy Spirit.  Whether or not shi-tzus and mastiffs have micro-evolved from wolves (not a species change as they can still interbreed) does not seem to me to be proof of much of anything - other than man is a curious creature and is always trying to control or manipulate his environment - for fun, for benefit, or in futility.

... Mountaineer
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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