Evolution discussion

[doodle]

And what about all the other human species that went extinct? Was god just testing out a variety of prototypes?

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13874671

[moda0306]

Mountaineer,

Do you not believe we evolved from apes?

How do you explain the skulls they've found of creatures that look like a progression from ape to human?

[doodle]

I'm open to the idea of creationism if someone can present some scientific evidence for it. Frankly argument from incredulity doesn't work for me nor does the miraculous explanation given in some thousand year old text that also tells us to stone people to death as a form of justice. The fact is that an unbiased mind looking at the evidence cannot help bit conclude that evolution is by far the most plausible explanation for how humans got here.

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

Do you not believe we evolved from apes?

How do you explain the skulls they've found of creatures that look like a progression from ape to human?

I do not believe we evolved from apes.  I do believe in a God that is powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it.  I believe in micro evolution, not macro, and do not believe that one species can or did change into another.  I believe in the God that is smart enough and powerful enough to create the universe, and that he can certainly create the earth in its present form, complete with bones, canyons, and mountains.  I also believe in original sin and the subsequent curse.  Death entered the world at the time of curse.  Who knows how long Adam and Eve and all the other life forms lived prior to the curse.  When everything was cursed, all the methods used to determine how old something is was also cursed and their reliability is suspect.  But, in the big scheme of things, how old the earth is is irrelevant, interesting to speculate about, but irrelevant.  God has always existed, before he created time, before he created the heavens and the earth, and before he created us.  Can I prove this?  No, but the evidence for my story is better than the evidence for macro evolution.  I read the story doodle posted from the BBC and just laughed.  Man trys so very hard to be his own god it almost isn't even funny, man can be the ultimate denier
... and at the same time does not even recognize that he is worshiping that god of his own making.  But, we have been through this several times already in this thread (edit: the religion thread).  It is either that we forget because the thread is so long, or we deny because we don't like what we hear - probably a bit of both. 

Blessings,

... Mountaineer

edited to refer to the religion thread

[Kshartle]

The fact is that an unbiased mind looking at the evidence cannot help bit conclude that evolution is by far the most plausible explanation for how humans got here.

That fact is that's your opinion.

Bwahahahahahaha

How did life even start? If we don't possess the technology to take the so-called building blocks of life and create even the simplest single-celled living creatures, well I'd say there is room for "unbiased" debate as to our origin.

I think it's pretty far-fetched to think the human brain evolved out of start dust.

For the record that last statement of mine is known as the argument from personal astonishment. Basically since I can't beleive it's true it must not be. - Now this is a false argument, but generally regarded as a complete checkmate, slam dunk, rock solid evidence of anything here. 

[moda0306]

The fact is that an unbiased mind looking at the evidence cannot help bit conclude that evolution is by far the most plausible explanation for how humans got here.

That fact is that's your opinion.

Bwahahahahahaha

How did life even start? If we don't possess the technology to take the so-called building blocks of life and create even the simplest single-celled living creatures, well I'd say there is room for "unbiased" debate as to our origin.

I think it's pretty far-fetched to think the human brain evolved out of start dust.

For the record that last statement of mine is known as the argument from personal astonishment. Basically since I can't beleive it's true it must not be. - Now this is a false argument, but generally regarded as a complete checkmate, slam dunk, rock solid evidence of anything here. 

Nothing can be as "slam dunk" as taking 20 premises over dozens of pages to prove something that should just be so simple and obvious to everyone .

[doodle]

The fact is that an unbiased mind looking at the evidence cannot help bit conclude that evolution is by far the most plausible explanation for how humans got here.

That fact is that's your opinion.

Bwahahahahahaha

How did life even start? If we don't possess the technology to take the so-called building blocks of life and create even the simplest single-celled living creatures, well I'd say there is room for "unbiased" debate as to our origin.

I think it's pretty far-fetched to think the human brain evolved out of start dust.

For the record that last statement of mine is known as the argument from personal astonishment. Basically since I can't beleive it's true it must not be. - Now this is a false argument, but generally regarded as a complete checkmate, slam dunk, rock solid evidence of anything here. 

Exactly.....Argument from incredulity...logical fallacy.

We know that species went through transitions...there is a fossil record of this (even though creationists try to argue it doesn't exist.....sea to land, reptile to bird (or vice versa), ape to man...

Life is certainly weird, but that fact doesn't imply a creator. In a material sense you are made out of the same stuff as your surroundings. Nothing in your body doesn't already exist in the environment. As far as your "soul" well....why don't you just lay it out on the table for us to examine? Show me some proof for it please.

Look at particle behavior in quantum physics....it is very very strange....you could argue that subatomic particles have "awareness" .....again, very strange but I don't see how it follows logically that there must be a creator much less one that gives two shits about us. After all, 99.9 percent of all species that ever existed on this planet are now extinct and thousands more go extinct every year. One day it'll probably be our time as well...

[Kshartle]

The fact is that an unbiased mind looking at the evidence cannot help bit conclude that evolution is by far the most plausible explanation for how humans got here.

That fact is that's your opinion.

Bwahahahahahaha

How did life even start? If we don't possess the technology to take the so-called building blocks of life and create even the simplest single-celled living creatures, well I'd say there is room for "unbiased" debate as to our origin.

I think it's pretty far-fetched to think the human brain evolved out of start dust.

For the record that last statement of mine is known as the argument from personal astonishment. Basically since I can't beleive it's true it must not be. - Now this is a false argument, but generally regarded as a complete checkmate, slam dunk, rock solid evidence of anything here. 

Nothing can be as "slam dunk" as taking 20 premises over dozens of pages to prove something that should just be so simple and obvious to everyone .

Consider the audience. It took 10 pages to get most people to agree that they themselves exist.

[doodle]

That fact is that's your opinion.

Bwahahahahahaha

How did life even start? If we don't possess the technology to take the so-called building blocks of life and create even the simplest single-celled living creatures, well I'd say there is room for "unbiased" debate as to our origin.

I think it's pretty far-fetched to think the human brain evolved out of start dust.

For the record that last statement of mine is known as the argument from personal astonishment. Basically since I can't beleive it's true it must not be. - Now this is a false argument, but generally regarded as a complete checkmate, slam dunk, rock solid evidence of anything here. 

Nothing can be as "slam dunk" as taking 20 premises over dozens of pages to prove something that should just be so simple and obvious to everyone .

Consider the audience. It took 10 pages to get most people to agree that they themselves exist.

That is still undetermined! There is plenty of evidence that we are simply simulations...

[Kshartle]

Nothing can be as "slam dunk" as taking 20 premises over dozens of pages to prove something that should just be so simple and obvious to everyone .

Consider the audience. It took 10 pages to get most people to agree that they themselves exist.

That is still undetermined! There is plenty of evidence that we are simply simulations...

 

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/0 ... -universe/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/1 ... d-reality/

I rarely post articles. These are short and pretty brilliant I think.

[Mountaineer]

The fact is that an unbiased mind looking at the evidence cannot help bit conclude that evolution is by far the most plausible explanation for how humans got here.

That fact is that's your opinion.

Bwahahahahahaha

How did life even start? If we don't possess the technology to take the so-called building blocks of life and create even the simplest single-celled living creatures, well I'd say there is room for "unbiased" debate as to our origin.

I think it's pretty far-fetched to think the human brain evolved out of start dust.

For the record that last statement of mine is known as the argument from personal astonishment. Basically since I can't beleive it's true it must not be. - Now this is a false argument, but generally regarded as a complete checkmate, slam dunk, rock solid evidence of anything here. 

Exactly.....Argument from incredulity...logical fallacy.

We know ["we" do?] that species went through transitions...there is a fossil record of this (even though creationists try to argue it doesn't exist.....sea to land, reptile to bird (or vice versa), ape to man... [did you bother to read my post]

Life is certainly weird, but that fact doesn't imply a creator [riiiiigggghhhhhtttttt]. In a material sense you are made out of the same stuff as your surroundings [so, your point?]. Nothing in your body doesn't already exist in the environment. As far as your "soul" well....why don't you just lay it out on the table for us to examine? Show me some proof for it please [a human body one micro second before death compared to a human body one micro second after death - nothing material changed].

Look at particle behavior in quantum physics....it is very very strange....you could argue [but you would be wrong, just my opinion] that subatomic particles have "awareness" .....again, very strange but I don't see how it follows logically that there must be a creator much less one that gives two shits about us. After all, 99.9 percent of all species that ever existed on this planet are now extinct and thousands more go extinct every year. One day it'll probably be our time as well... [most assuredly on that, I'm ready now, are you?]

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

Consider the audience. It took 10 pages to get most people to agree that they themselves exist.

That is still undetermined! There is plenty of evidence that we are simply simulations...

 

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/0 ... -universe/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/1 ... d-reality/

I rarely post articles. These are short and pretty brilliant I think.

Weird, but true...

I actually invoke a form of this argument when I tell people why I don't like to travel much anymore. Physically transporting my carcass to a place seems so inefficient when all my experience happens in my mind anyways. My senses are just inputs channels that take data to my mind.  Through proper visualization and some good pictures and videos as stimulus I am able to almost get the full experience of travel without leaving my couch.....don't ask me what this implies for my ideas on sex.....hahaha!

[moda0306]

Mountaineer,

You are claiming that there is more reliable evidence that your brand of. Christianity is true than macro evolution?

Do you think that the skills that imply that you are wrong are creations God just put in the earth? It sounds like this is what you're saying.


Also, the human brain, a millisecond after death, is materially different.  Sort of like a cleared hard drive is materially different than a full one.

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

You are claiming that there is more reliable evidence that your brand of. Christianity is true than macro evolution?

Do you think that the skills that imply that you are wrong are creations God just put in the earth? It sounds like this is what you're saying.


Also, the human brain, a millisecond after death, is materially different.  Sort of like a cleared hard drive is materially different than a full one.

You say milli, I say micro, you say milli, I say micro, you say tomato, I say tomatto, tomato, tomatto, that's what it's all about ... that could be a song!

For you first question ... yes.  For your second question, I did not get ANY sleep last night and had no polyphasic naps today so I'm a bit slow; I do not understand what you are saying, could you please rephrase?

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

That is still undetermined! There is plenty of evidence that we are simply simulations...

 

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/0 ... -universe/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/1 ... d-reality/

I rarely post articles. These are short and pretty brilliant I think.

Weird, but true...

I actually invoke a form of this argument when I tell people why I don't like to travel much anymore. Physically transporting my carcass to a place seems so inefficient when all my experience happens in my mind anyways. My senses are just inputs channels that take data to my mind.  Through proper visualization and some good pictures and videos as stimulus I am able to almost get the full experience of travel without leaving my couch.....don't ask me what this implies for my ideas on sex.....hahaha!

Virtual travel with something like go pro will be the future I think. People will log-in to get a total virtual live experience of places all over the world. People who could never afford to leave their home or work will get to go experience great places, much better than with the old idiot box and Rick Steves.

[moda0306]

Mountaineer,

You are claiming that there is more reliable evidence that your brand of. Christianity is true than macro evolution?

Do you think that the skills that imply that you are wrong are creations God just put in the earth? It sounds like this is what you're saying.


Also, the human brain, a millisecond after death, is materially different.  Sort of like a cleared hard drive is materially different than a full one.

You say milli, I say micro, you say milli, I say micro, you say tomato, I say tomatto, tomato, tomatto, that's what it's all about ... that could be a song!

For you first question ... yes.  For your second question, I did not get ANY sleep last night and had no polyphasic naps today so I'm a bit slow; I do not understand what you are saying, could you please rephrase?

... Mountaineer

Ahhh.... Skills = skulls. I am asking you if you think God put the skulls of Neanderthals in the earth or if if they actually existed...

[doodle]

Mountaineer,

You are claiming that there is more reliable evidence that your brand of. Christianity is true than macro evolution?

Do you think that the skills that imply that you are wrong are creations God just put in the earth? It sounds like this is what you're saying.


Also, the human brain, a millisecond after death, is materially different.  Sort of like a cleared hard drive is materially different than a full one.

You say milli, I say micro, you say milli, I say micro, you say tomato, I say tomatto, tomato, tomatto, that's what it's all about ... that could be a song!

For you first question ... yes.  For your second question, I did not get ANY sleep last night and had no polyphasic naps today so I'm a bit slow; I do not understand what you are saying, could you please rephrase?

... Mountaineer

Ahhh.... Skills = skulls. I am asking you if you think God put the skulls of Neanderthals in the earth or if if they actually existed...

He put them in the earth to test our faith in the light of such plausible evidence for evolution. He is a trickster god who loves nothing more than to F' with his creation so that he can send them to burn in the eternal lake of fire.

Same goes for dinosaur fossils...I mean giant lizards? Come on, really? How absurd!

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

You are claiming that there is more reliable evidence that your brand of. Christianity is true than macro evolution?

Do you think that the skills that imply that you are wrong are creations God just put in the earth? It sounds like this is what you're saying.


Also, the human brain, a millisecond after death, is materially different.  Sort of like a cleared hard drive is materially different than a full one.

You say milli, I say micro, you say milli, I say micro, you say tomato, I say tomatto, tomato, tomatto, that's what it's all about ... that could be a song!

For you first question ... yes.  For your second question, I did not get ANY sleep last night and had no polyphasic naps today so I'm a bit slow; I do not understand what you are saying, could you please rephrase?

... Mountaineer

Ahhh.... Skills = skulls. I am asking you if you think God put the skulls of Neanderthals in the earth or if if they actually existed...

Actually, I have no idea.  I do think that with God all things are possible.  Klemet Preus (author of the book that has the letters I'm posting in the religion thread) addresses creation things somewhere around letter 90 but it is not in much depth; you will have to wait a while since I'm only in the low 20s on the postings.  And, I guess you did not buy my "postulate" on how things can appear old and may not be?  Just curious.

... Mountaineer

Edit:  I could send you my Pastor's Masters Thesis if you like.  It is on the descent of Darwin and is actually an interesting read ... but long.  I could post a link to it if you like.  Let me know if you have interest in reading that much material on the subject.

[WildAboutHarry]

It's easier to tweak than re-design.

So, what happened to the collar bone?  Where did it come from, where did it go?

Or even more interesting, what about the baculum?

[moda0306]

You say milli, I say micro, you say milli, I say micro, you say tomato, I say tomatto, tomato, tomatto, that's what it's all about ... that could be a song!

For you first question ... yes.  For your second question, I did not get ANY sleep last night and had no polyphasic naps today so I'm a bit slow; I do not understand what you are saying, could you please rephrase?

... Mountaineer

Ahhh.... Skills = skulls. I am asking you if you think God put the skulls of Neanderthals in the earth or if if they actually existed...

Actually, I have no idea.  I do think that with God all things are possible.  Klemet Preus (author of the book that has the letters I'm posting in the religion thread) addresses creation things somewhere around letter 90 but it is not in much depth; you will have to wait a while since I'm only in the low 20s on the postings.  And, I guess you did not buy my "postulate" on how things can appear old and may not be?  Just curious.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer,

Do you think our fossil evidence provides reasonable evidence for macro evolution if they DO represent actual skulls? 

Your details around the age of the earth are fine I guess.  I'll agree that an all-powerful God can make anything happen... But the age of the earth is of utmost importance if we are to understand whether we should be interpreting the Bible literally or not.... I mean I had bacon this morning... I might as well have had gay sex!

[Mountaineer]

It's easier to tweak than re-design.

So, what happened to the collar bone?  Where did it come from, where did it go?

Or even more interesting, what about the baculum?

I may have to award a second "hoot of the day".  I had to look that one up ... and, I'm so far on the right side of the bell curve it is em-bare-assing ..... (maybe  ) ).

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Ahhh.... Skills = skulls. I am asking you if you think God put the skulls of Neanderthals in the earth or if if they actually existed...

Actually, I have no idea.  I do think that with God all things are possible.  Klemet Preus (author of the book that has the letters I'm posting in the religion thread) addresses creation things somewhere around letter 90 but it is not in much depth; you will have to wait a while since I'm only in the low 20s on the postings.  And, I guess you did not buy my "postulate" on how things can appear old and may not be?  Just curious.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer,

Do you think our fossil evidence provides reasonable evidence for macro evolution if they DO represent actual skulls? 

Your details around the age of the earth are fine I guess.  I'll agree that an all-powerful God can make anything happen... But the age of the earth is of utmost importance if we are to understand whether we should be interpreting the Bible literally or not.... I mean I had bacon this morning... I might as well have had gay sex!

Not yet. (But it is completely irrevelant what I think ... meaningless jabberwocky on this topic).

You are going for the third award, aren't you?  You sly dog, you!

... Mountaineer

Edit (my brain really is working slowly today, no joke):  I may be wrong on this, but I think what remains that have been discovered, are actually very small fragments of a whole skeleton (whether talking about Neandrathals, Piltdown Man, TRex, etc.)  The rest is speculation on what man "thinks" it is. 

[doodle]

It's easier to tweak than re-design.

So, what happened to the collar bone?  Where did it come from, where did it go?

Or even more interesting, what about the baculum?

I don't know...monkeys have collarbones and I believe dogs have vestigial ones.

The penis bone is present in some mammals (mostly carnivores) and not others...

[doodle]

Just a quick search on clavicles in cats, dogs, horses yielded this....it is vestigial.

http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers ... hp?id=3590

[moda0306]

Mountaineer,

It is completely relevant what you think if you are aware of opposing or tangential facts to the ones I believe to be true. It's completely relevant if I'm wrong and you're right, and God not only exists for certain, but exists the way you say he does.  You are one of few access points I have to the truth, if you are correct, so your interpretation of reality might be the most important one I should be considering.



Another question for you on your Faith.... What came first, your strong belief in Christ as your savior, or your conclusion that there is decent empirical evidence that Christ really rose from his grave.


Also, if you're willing to accept the possibility that God put fossil's here to test our faith, doesn't that kind of throw out anything we could ever believe about God?  The Bible?  Jesus?  Perhaps they're all some sick test that we haven't figured out yet...